Minnesota Sports Forum

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:Robson tweets a great question: Suppose the Wolves had made a coaching change at the all-star break. Assuming the Wolves still played close to .500 basketball after the change, how would we be evaluating the new coach now? It's a rhetorical question, because I think Brit knows the answer is we'd be planning a parade for him! By the end of the year, the Wolves showed they were a .500 team with Mitchell coaching. If he truly were as ineffective a coach as he is depicted here, and assuming our young players continue to develop at the rate they did this year and we add new pieces through the draft and free agency, shouldn't we expect them take a big step beyond the last half of this year and be much better than .500 next year? I hope this isn't overly optimistic. but it seems to me that a 10-game improvement over the .500 pace the last half of the year is a reasonable expectation. I for one would be happy with a 51-31 record next year.

I was thinking about expectations for next season and your post kind of backs up what I was thinking. The goal next year should be 50 wins and we should at least aspire to land in the top 4 of the West. I'm sure that sounds ambitious to some, but it's time to raise our expectations for this group. Of course some things are going to need to take place this offseason: 1) Hire a dynamic coach 2) Make good use of our top draft pick 3) Sign one or two key young veteran pieces to fill out the rotation.

Ambitious indeed, but I don't want to hear talk about incremental improvement for next year. It's time for Tim's forecast to be more reality than fantasy.

I like the way you're thinking, cool. The Wolves were 10-10 under Sam Mitchell the final quarter of the season, so .500 (or 41 wins) should be the baseline from where we begin to forecast next year. We were reasonably healthy this year (some would say remarkably healthy this year, but three big men who could have been in the rotation (Pek, KG and Belly) missed significant time, so I would call it reasonably healthy), and my forecast assumes similar health. Then, add on the following variables:

Continuing maturation of KAT, Wig, Zach, G, Tyus, and even Ricky: 3 wins

Full season and additional comfort level from Belly: 2 wins

Addition of one lottery pick and 1-3 free agents that fill needs 2 wins

New coach and hopefully improved defense 4 wins



Total expected improvement over end of season performance 11 wins, which gets us to 52 wins



We all know how much NBA players generally improve in years 2-4, and more than half of our expected rotation players are in that category: Wig, Zach, KAT, Tyus, Gorgui, Shabazz and Belly. That's how OkC improved 27 wins in the season Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka entered their 2nd and 3rd seasons, so it's not unreasonable to expect a similar leap for the Wolves...and that's without even giving much credit to a new coach and system.

The time for excuses is officially over.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

BloopOracle wrote:I have to side with Cam on this, I disagree with Thibs being set in his ways and being a negative droning influence after awhile. Look how hard his players played for him in Chicago, even through those devastating injuries. To fight year after year even after losing your best player speaks volumes about his motivation tactics. I also don't see why he is viewed as someone who is stuck in his ways. He is widely regarded as the best defensive coach in teh NBA so I"m not sure what the problem is there concerning his methods. On offense he was constantly yelling at his player to push the pace but they didn't have the personal for that. When Rose went down his switched his offense to run through Noah and it worked beautifully. I'm also having a very hard time finding interviews where Thibs is combative with the media.

The problem with Thibodeau isn't that he can't coach, is too set in his ways, or can't motivate. The problem is he doesn't play well in the sandbox with others, and his methods wear out their welcome. There is way too much of this written and spoken for their not to be some truth to it. I think it's a mistake to just dismiss it and assume that things would be much better and different here. Leopards can't change their spots. The question really becomes are his strengths great enough to overcome his weaknesses, and what's his fit with the Timberwolves at this point in time.

You know who can be a real dick? Phil Jackson. I'm not suggesting Thibs or anyone is the level of coach of the Zen master but once again let's remind ourselves these guys have negatives including Thibs. There are plenty of HOF coaches that had issues getting along with people or whatnot. I'm not suggesting dismiss The negative about Thibs or any of these guys but I think it's worthwhile to remember a lot of very good coaches have some "issues" and as cool put it do the strengths outweighs the weaknesses and does it fit in the organization.

Personally I think JVG gets way too much of a free pass in the agree ability dept. he is a coaches coach and entertainingly disagrees with his own broadcast partners and tips all kinds of people for legit and odd reasons. He is a feisty guy let's not forget that. It's part of why he is likeable both as a coach and as a person that's interesting but that's still there.

Let's also not forget that Van Gundy scorned the Bulls organization for how they handled the Thibs situation. He wasn't treated fairly on his way out and they really did a damage to his image. The way some on the board talk about him are examples of this.

monsterpile wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

BloopOracle wrote:I have to side with Cam on this, I disagree with Thibs being set in his ways and being a negative droning influence after awhile. Look how hard his players played for him in Chicago, even through those devastating injuries. To fight year after year even after losing your best player speaks volumes about his motivation tactics. I also don't see why he is viewed as someone who is stuck in his ways. He is widely regarded as the best defensive coach in teh NBA so I"m not sure what the problem is there concerning his methods. On offense he was constantly yelling at his player to push the pace but they didn't have the personal for that. When Rose went down his switched his offense to run through Noah and it worked beautifully. I'm also having a very hard time finding interviews where Thibs is combative with the media.

The problem with Thibodeau isn't that he can't coach, is too set in his ways, or can't motivate. The problem is he doesn't play well in the sandbox with others, and his methods wear out their welcome. There is way too much of this written and spoken for their not to be some truth to it. I think it's a mistake to just dismiss it and assume that things would be much better and different here. Leopards can't change their spots. The question really becomes are his strengths great enough to overcome his weaknesses, and what's his fit with the Timberwolves at this point in time.

You know who can be a real dick? Phil Jackson. I'm not suggesting Thibs or anyone is the level of coach of the Zen master but once again let's remind ourselves these guys have negatives including Thibs. There are plenty of HOF coaches that had issues getting along with people or whatnot. I'm not suggesting dismiss The negative about Thibs or any of these guys but I think it's worthwhile to remember a lot of very good coaches have some "issues" and as cool put it do the strengths outweighs the weaknesses and does it fit in the organization.

Personally I think JVG gets way too much of a free pass in the agree ability dept. he is a coaches coach and entertainingly disagrees with his own broadcast partners and tips all kinds of people for legit and odd reasons. He is a feisty guy let's not forget that. It's part of why he is likeable both as a coach and as a person that's interesting but that's still there.

Ha, good point about Jackson, monster! And further, I think most of the people on this board could have coached his rosters to a few championships (did he ever coach a team that didn't have 2 top 50 all-time players on it?). We know Phil Jackson can be difficult to get along with, but we will never really how good a coach he truly was. I don't think anyone could make an argument that he ever overachieved with the rosters he was given. I would have loved to have seen Jackson coach a normal roster to see how good he really was.

Camden wrote:Let's also not forget that Van Gundy scorned the Bulls organization for how they handled the Thibs situation. He wasn't treated fairly on his way out and they really did a damage to his image. The way some on the board talk about him are examples of this.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so let me ask you. Would you say the Bulls were 90% culpable, and Thibodeau 10%? Or would you attach some other percentage?

Let's keep in mind that none of us really know exactly what went down in Chicago. All we can go off of are the reports from those that had some connection to the situation. And I think it's safe to say there was issues on both sides.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:Let's also not forget that Van Gundy scorned the Bulls organization for how they handled the Thibs situation. He wasn't treated fairly on his way out and they really did a damage to his image. The way some on the board talk about him are examples of this.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so let me ask you. Would you say the Bulls were 90% culpable, and Thibodeau 10%? Or would you attach some other percentage?

Let's keep in mind that none of us really know exactly what went down in Chicago. All we can go off of are the reports from those that had some connection to the situation. And I think it's safe to say there was issues on both sides.

I can't pin a number on it, but the majority of the discussion has been about how difficult Thibs is to work with, how he can't adapt, how he's stubborn, how he's incapable of working with management. All this talk about Thibs, but it gives the Bulls as an organization a free pass as though they couldn't possibly be guilty in the matter. I think that's foolishness.

If he's so damn difficult to work with, why is he on the Team USA coaching staff, which is made up of other high profile coaches such as Coach K and Mike D'Antoni? Why does Doc Rivers love him? Why does Jeff Van Gundy love him? You can't talk about his inability to work with others because of the Chicago situation and ignore all the other successful environments he's been in and there was never a problem. That's only done to fit an agenda.

Also, someone please provide examples of Thibs being a pain in the ass to media. I don't know where that misconception came from. He's always provided K.C. Johnson and the Chicago media with whatever they needed. He's always been accountable when his team lost or showed poor execution. Oh, and why did he make the rounds with Bill Simmons, Zach Lowe and other media members this year if he's such a poor sport with the media? None of that adds up. Again, it's just to fit an agenda.

Camden wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:Let's also not forget that Van Gundy scorned the Bulls organization for how they handled the Thibs situation. He wasn't treated fairly on his way out and they really did a damage to his image. The way some on the board talk about him are examples of this.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so let me ask you. Would you say the Bulls were 90% culpable, and Thibodeau 10%? Or would you attach some other percentage?

Let's keep in mind that none of us really know exactly what went down in Chicago. All we can go off of are the reports from those that had some connection to the situation. And I think it's safe to say there was issues on both sides.

I can't pin a number on it, but the majority of the discussion has been about how difficult Thibs is to work with, how he can't adapt, how he's stubborn, how he's incapable of working with management. All this talk about Thibs, but it gives the Bulls as an organization a free pass as though they couldn't possibly be guilty in the matter. I think that's foolishness.

If he's so damn difficult to work with, why is he on the Team USA coaching staff, which is made up of other high profile coaches such as Coach K and Mike D'Antoni? Why does Doc Rivers love him? Why does Jeff Van Gundy love him? You can't talk about his inability to work with others because of the Chicago situation and ignore all the other successful environments he's been in and there was never a problem. That's only done to fit an agenda.

Also, someone please provide examples of Thibs being a pain in the ass to media. I don't know where that misconception came from. He's always provided K.C. Johnson and the Chicago media with whatever they needed. He's always been accountable when his team lost or showed poor execution. Oh, and why did he make the rounds with Bill Simmons, Zach Lowe and other media members this year if he's such a poor sport with the media? None of that adds up. Again, it's just to fit an agenda.

C'mon Cam. That describes you to a "T" in this, and just about any crusade you take up on this board.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:Let's also not forget that Van Gundy scorned the Bulls organization for how they handled the Thibs situation. He wasn't treated fairly on his way out and they really did a damage to his image. The way some on the board talk about him are examples of this.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so let me ask you. Would you say the Bulls were 90% culpable, and Thibodeau 10%? Or would you attach some other percentage?

Let's keep in mind that none of us really know exactly what went down in Chicago. All we can go off of are the reports from those that had some connection to the situation. And I think it's safe to say there was issues on both sides.

I can't pin a number on it, but the majority of the discussion has been about how difficult Thibs is to work with, how he can't adapt, how he's stubborn, how he's incapable of working with management. All this talk about Thibs, but it gives the Bulls as an organization a free pass as though they couldn't possibly be guilty in the matter. I think that's foolishness.

If he's so damn difficult to work with, why is he on the Team USA coaching staff, which is made up of other high profile coaches such as Coach K and Mike D'Antoni? Why does Doc Rivers love him? Why does Jeff Van Gundy love him? You can't talk about his inability to work with others because of the Chicago situation and ignore all the other successful environments he's been in and there was never a problem. That's only done to fit an agenda.

Also, someone please provide examples of Thibs being a pain in the ass to media. I don't know where that misconception came from. He's always provided K.C. Johnson and the Chicago media with whatever they needed. He's always been accountable when his team lost or showed poor execution. Oh, and why did he make the rounds with Bill Simmons, Zach Lowe and other media members this year if he's such a poor sport with the media? None of that adds up. Again, it's just to fit an agenda.

C'mon Cam. That describes you to a "T" in this, and just about any crusade you take up on this board.

Fine. I'm pushing my own agenda. To combat some of the nonsense that's said about Thibs. There are concerns, I don't disagree with that, but a lot of the talk about him is overdramatic.

Also, pot calling the kettle black. You do the same shit I do. Let's not get into that.

Camden wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:Let's also not forget that Van Gundy scorned the Bulls organization for how they handled the Thibs situation. He wasn't treated fairly on his way out and they really did a damage to his image. The way some on the board talk about him are examples of this.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so let me ask you. Would you say the Bulls were 90% culpable, and Thibodeau 10%? Or would you attach some other percentage?

Let's keep in mind that none of us really know exactly what went down in Chicago. All we can go off of are the reports from those that had some connection to the situation. And I think it's safe to say there was issues on both sides.

I can't pin a number on it, but the majority of the discussion has been about how difficult Thibs is to work with, how he can't adapt, how he's stubborn, how he's incapable of working with management. All this talk about Thibs, but it gives the Bulls as an organization a free pass as though they couldn't possibly be guilty in the matter. I think that's foolishness.

If he's so damn difficult to work with, why is he on the Team USA coaching staff, which is made up of other high profile coaches such as Coach K and Mike D'Antoni? Why does Doc Rivers love him? Why does Jeff Van Gundy love him? You can't talk about his inability to work with others because of the Chicago situation and ignore all the other successful environments he's been in and there was never a problem. That's only done to fit an agenda.

Also, someone please provide examples of Thibs being a pain in the ass to media. I don't know where that misconception came from. He's always provided K.C. Johnson and the Chicago media with whatever they needed. He's always been accountable when his team lost or showed poor execution. Oh, and why did he make the rounds with Bill Simmons, Zach Lowe and other media members this year if he's such a poor sport with the media? None of that adds up. Again, it's just to fit an agenda.

C'mon Cam. That describes you to a "T" in this, and just about any crusade you take up on this board.

Fine. I'm pushing my own agenda. To combat some of the nonsense that's said about Thibs. There are concerns, I don't disagree with that, but a lot of the talk about him is overdramatic.

Also, pot calling the kettle black. You do the same shit I do. Let's not get into that.

Okay I do. But you're the one calling out others for doing it.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:Let's also not forget that Van Gundy scorned the Bulls organization for how they handled the Thibs situation. He wasn't treated fairly on his way out and they really did a damage to his image. The way some on the board talk about him are examples of this.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so let me ask you. Would you say the Bulls were 90% culpable, and Thibodeau 10%? Or would you attach some other percentage?

Let's keep in mind that none of us really know exactly what went down in Chicago. All we can go off of are the reports from those that had some connection to the situation. And I think it's safe to say there was issues on both sides.

I can't pin a number on it, but the majority of the discussion has been about how difficult Thibs is to work with, how he can't adapt, how he's stubborn, how he's incapable of working with management. All this talk about Thibs, but it gives the Bulls as an organization a free pass as though they couldn't possibly be guilty in the matter. I think that's foolishness.

If he's so damn difficult to work with, why is he on the Team USA coaching staff, which is made up of other high profile coaches such as Coach K and Mike D'Antoni? Why does Doc Rivers love him? Why does Jeff Van Gundy love him? You can't talk about his inability to work with others because of the Chicago situation and ignore all the other successful environments he's been in and there was never a problem. That's only done to fit an agenda.

Also, someone please provide examples of Thibs being a pain in the ass to media. I don't know where that misconception came from. He's always provided K.C. Johnson and the Chicago media with whatever they needed. He's always been accountable when his team lost or showed poor execution. Oh, and why did he make the rounds with Bill Simmons, Zach Lowe and other media members this year if he's such a poor sport with the media? None of that adds up. Again, it's just to fit an agenda.

C'mon Cam. That describes you to a "T" in this, and just about any crusade you take up on this board.

Fine. I'm pushing my own agenda. To combat some of the nonsense that's said about Thibs. There are concerns, I don't disagree with that, but a lot of the talk about him is overdramatic.

Also, pot calling the kettle black. You do the same shit I do. Let's not get into that.

Okay I do. But you're the one calling out others for doing it.

Wait, so what are you doing right now?