Minnesota Sports Forum

BloopOracle wrote:

monsterpile wrote:One of the things that bugs me the most when it comes to Thibs is the narrative "Thibs is always looking to win now" thing. The last 2 Dane Moore podcasts (lots of good thoughts there even if I don't agree with everything) they hammered this point about Thibs bigtime. It's simply not an accurate portrayal of Thibs time with the Wolves. Heck let's just look at last season.

Thibs trades 3 young assets for Butler. He is going all in right he got his guy!!!

-Drafts a raw big man in Patton when he could have picked a more ready guy in John Collins.

-Doesn't trade the pick he acquired for Rubio not only in the offseason but throughout the season and ends up actually selecting a young player.

-Holds off signing anyone else to bring back a young vet in Bazz.

-signs MGH and keeps him the entire season on the roster.

Now you can argue whether those moves were good basketball moves (Bazz was a disaster, MGH isn't here and Patton has busted feet) but there is simply no way you can tell me Thibs has been all in on the immediate with no eyes toward the future.

Why does this matter?

For one it shows how our biases can shape how we see something. I'm guilty as anyone as one example I was duped about the Butler situation...or hoped Bazz would be a good addition last season. Lol good times right?

Thibs seems to be pretty committed to what he does. Is he going to abandon his principals just to possibly save his job and if he does save his job have a worse outcome because he did some now stuff? That doesn't seem like Thibs to me. He keeps saying he has to do the best thing for the franchise and the team. Do I think Thibs will demand a player that will help the team right now? Yes he probably will which seems reasonable when you are trading a player as good as Butler. I think everyone here wants some sort of player than can help this year but we would certainly want a younger guy. I honestly think Thibs thinks much more about the future than many people give him credit for which is partly why I'm not as freaked out about him making this deal as others. I still don't really think he is the guy going forward for this franchise but I think he might be fine for the next few months especially since it doesn't seem there is another obvious option to replace him.

Great post

Very good post indeed.

Thibs has been a better front office guy than head coach for sure. I wish Glen would just force him into that role and hire a new coach. Likely won't happen.

As you know, I didn't like the Butler trade as I am obviously TheFuture kind of guy with the collection of talent we had and the warriors/LBJ around and the Sixer's/Celtics future we were looking at competing against, but I understand why he did it. He fully expected Butler to stay around, and that makes the deal worth it.

Where Thibs lost me was the Patton pick after the Dieng signing when everyone saw that the league was going small. OG was my pick then, and it was the right pick.

Then the rubio trade/teague signing. They both need the ball in their hands, but one truly makes everyone better. Rubio was the better fit, but to utilize him Thibs had to relinquish ultimate control of his offensive scheme.

Okogie and KDB are promising so we will see how his talent evaluation sits in two years.

We also have not seen any single player improve under him yet, so if that remains this season - he absolutely has to go as HC.

I think he's been a mediocre front office guy and coach. I give him a C in his combined role for his first season here where he basically won the same amount of games as Mitchell. I give him a B+ for last season. And I give him a D- so far this season, starting with the offseason until now.

As for the present versus the future, I've never really had a problem with this aspect of Thibs GM-ing and coaching.

monsterpile wrote:One of the things that bugs me the most when it comes to Thibs is the narrative "Thibs is always looking to win now" thing. The last 2 Dane Moore podcasts (lots of good thoughts there even if I don't agree with everything) they hammered this point about Thibs bigtime. It's simply not an accurate portrayal of Thibs time with the Wolves. Heck let's just look at last season.

Thibs trades 3 young assets for Butler. He is going all in right he got his guy!!!

-Drafts a raw big man in Patton when he could have picked a more ready guy in John Collins.

-Doesn't trade the pick he acquired for Rubio not only in the offseason but throughout the season and ends up actually selecting a young player.

-Holds off signing anyone else to bring back a young vet in Bazz.

-signs MGH and keeps him the entire season on the roster.

Now you can argue whether those moves were good basketball moves (Bazz was a disaster, MGH isn't here and Patton has busted feet) but there is simply no way you can tell me Thibs has been all in on the immediate with no eyes toward the future.

Why does this matter?

For one it shows how our biases can shape how we see something. I'm guilty as anyone as one example I was duped about the Butler situation...or hoped Bazz would be a good addition last season. Lol good times right?

Thibs seems to be pretty committed to what he does. Is he going to abandon his principals just to possibly save his job and if he does save his job have a worse outcome because he did some now stuff? That doesn't seem like Thibs to me. He keeps saying he has to do the best thing for the franchise and the team. Do I think Thibs will demand a player that will help the team right now? Yes he probably will which seems reasonable when you are trading a player as good as Butler. I think everyone here wants some sort of player than can help this year but we would certainly want a younger guy. I honestly think Thibs thinks much more about the future than many people give him credit for which is partly why I'm not as freaked out about him making this deal as others. I still don't really think he is the guy going forward for this franchise but I think he might be fine for the next few months especially since it doesn't seem there is another obvious option to replace him.

Good post, Monster. I've always been more concerned about Thibodeau's overall judgment as PBO than his emphasis on the present versus the future. You've done a nice job pointing out Thibodeau's more forward-looking decisions. But here's a list of what I would consider poor front office judgments by Thibodeau:

First, I consider it poor judgment to have taken the Patton over the nimble, athletic and more accomplished but still young Collins or the high upside Anunoby. Second, I thought signing Teague was a bad choice for PG given our need for defense and for more complimentary players around our many scorers. I thought it was especially poor judgment to pay him $19 million a year for 3 years when someone like Darren Collison signed with Indiana for 2 years, $10 million per year. Third, Thibodeau also showed very poor judgment offering Bazz a big contract that he thankfully turned down. Fourth, taking Dunn over Murray and Buddy Hield also struck me as poor judgment. While not opposed to the Butler deal, I questioned it at the time and it's certainly not a deal I would have done. Part of my concern was related to the lack of alignment between Butler's age and our young core. But I was more concerned about Butler's injury history, the fact he only had 2 years left on his deal, his history alienating some teammates in Chicago and the nature of his offensive game, which seemed redundant to Wiggins and overly reliant on mid-range jumpers. It's taken only one year to find out that the Butler deal was, indeed a mistake.

So I agree with you that the facts don't support the claim that Thibodeau has been overly focused on winning now at the expense of building for the future. But the facts tell me he's been a mediocre PBO at best and before this summer. His horrible mishandling of the Butler situation since the end of last season takes him from mediocre to poor. And he's an even worse head coach. But you already knew where I stand on Thibodeau. :)

TheFuture wrote:

BloopOracle wrote:

monsterpile wrote:One of the things that bugs me the most when it comes to Thibs is the narrative "Thibs is always looking to win now" thing. The last 2 Dane Moore podcasts (lots of good thoughts there even if I don't agree with everything) they hammered this point about Thibs bigtime. It's simply not an accurate portrayal of Thibs time with the Wolves. Heck let's just look at last season.

Thibs trades 3 young assets for Butler. He is going all in right he got his guy!!!

-Drafts a raw big man in Patton when he could have picked a more ready guy in John Collins.

-Doesn't trade the pick he acquired for Rubio not only in the offseason but throughout the season and ends up actually selecting a young player.

-Holds off signing anyone else to bring back a young vet in Bazz.

-signs MGH and keeps him the entire season on the roster.

Now you can argue whether those moves were good basketball moves (Bazz was a disaster, MGH isn't here and Patton has busted feet) but there is simply no way you can tell me Thibs has been all in on the immediate with no eyes toward the future.

Why does this matter?

For one it shows how our biases can shape how we see something. I'm guilty as anyone as one example I was duped about the Butler situation...or hoped Bazz would be a good addition last season. Lol good times right?

Thibs seems to be pretty committed to what he does. Is he going to abandon his principals just to possibly save his job and if he does save his job have a worse outcome because he did some now stuff? That doesn't seem like Thibs to me. He keeps saying he has to do the best thing for the franchise and the team. Do I think Thibs will demand a player that will help the team right now? Yes he probably will which seems reasonable when you are trading a player as good as Butler. I think everyone here wants some sort of player than can help this year but we would certainly want a younger guy. I honestly think Thibs thinks much more about the future than many people give him credit for which is partly why I'm not as freaked out about him making this deal as others. I still don't really think he is the guy going forward for this franchise but I think he might be fine for the next few months especially since it doesn't seem there is another obvious option to replace him.

Great post

Very good post indeed.

Thibs has been a better front office guy than head coach for sure. I wish Glen would just force him into that role and hire a new coach. Likely won't happen.

As you know, I didn't like the Butler trade as I am obviously TheFuture kind of guy with the collection of talent we had and the warriors/LBJ around and the Sixer's/Celtics future we were looking at competing against, but I understand why he did it. He fully expected Butler to stay around, and that makes the deal worth it.

Where Thibs lost me was the Patton pick after the Dieng signing when everyone saw that the league was going small. OG was my pick then, and it was the right pick.

Then the rubio trade/teague signing. They both need the ball in their hands, but one truly makes everyone better. Rubio was the better fit, but to utilize him Thibs had to relinquish ultimate control of his offensive scheme.

Okogie and KDB are promising so we will see how his talent evaluation sits in two years.

We also have not seen any single player improve under him yet, so if that remains this season - he absolutely has to go as HC.

I also have not had a huge problem with Thibs as POBO, although I think a C would be a fair grade. It's his coaching that consistently seems "win now" to me. The ridiculous amount of minutes he keeps his starters on the court has always been totally out of step with every other coach, and wears his guys out both in the short-term and the long-term. But like monster, I have never thought his POBO decisions were "win now".

If Thibs were a win now GM he never would have resigned Wiggins.

thedoper wrote:If Thibs were a win now GM he never would have resigned Wiggins.

I agree. Again, I think the evidence demonstrates that he has not been overly focused on winning now in his role as PBO.

"Thibs has been a better front office guy than head coach for sure. I wish Glen would just force him into that role and hire a new coach. Likely won't happen"

Can't agree with you. I think he's been piss poor at both jobs, but I think his front office skills are far worse than his coaching.

KG4Ever wrote:"Thibs has been a better front office guy than head coach for sure. I wish Glen would just force him into that role and hire a new coach. Likely won't happen"

Can't agree with you. I think he's been piss poor at both jobs, but I think his front office skills are far worse than his coaching.

I agree that Thibodeau has been bad at both jobs. Hard to say in which position he's been worse. Here's a short review of Thibodeau's major PBO decisions:

DRAFT PICKS
1. Drafted Dunn over Murray and Hield
2. Drafted Patton over John Collins and Anunoby.
3. Drafted Okogie and KBD.

So far I'd say he gets a D for his first to drafts and a B+ for his third draft.

FREE AGENT SIGNINGS/EXTENSIONS

1. Cole Aldrich FA signing
2. Brandon Rush FA signing
3. Jamaal Crawford FA signing
4. Jeff Teague FA signing
5. Aaron Brooks FA signing
6. Gorgui 4-yr. $15M p/yr extension
7. Taj Gibson FA signing
8. Derrick Rose FA signing
9. MGH - FA signing
10. Anthony Brown FA 2-way contract
11. Bazz multi-yr $10M p/yr signing attempt rejected by Bazz
12. Bazz min salary FA signing
13. Luol Deng FA signing
14. Anthony Tolliver FA signing
15. Andrew Wiggins max extension
16. KAT max extension

I'd say Thibodeau's FA and extension decisions before this summer were poor overall. The only decision that has proven to be a good one was the Taj signing. I'd give him a B+ for that one -- not an A because Thibodeau paid higher than market value to get him. The Teague signing was mediocre at best then you Teague's defensive deficiencies on a team that needed better defense above all else and Teague's contract. The lucrative extension he gave Gorgui was bad and the one he offered Bazz (rejected by Bazz) was ridiculous. The max extension he gave Wiggins is problematic at this point. After two years, it would seem that Thibodeau's done better this summer signing Tolliver and extending KAT, but that remains to be seen.

TRADES

1. LaVine, Dunn & 7th pick for Butler & 15th pick
2. Rubio for OKC first round pick

The Butler trade turned out to be a one-year rental that got us into the playoffs. I don't think we can fully evaluate that deal until we see what Thibodeau gets in return for Butler this year. I had my doubts about the Butler trade at the time because of Butler's injury history, difficulty with teammates and age mismatch with out core young players, but I wasn't opposed to it. I still don't fault Thibodeau too much for doing the deal. I fault him as PBO for failing to proactively deal with the problems surrounding Butler and the team months ago either by definitively resolving Butler's dissatisfaction and resolving the related disputes or by trading him before an 11th-hour trade demand that his seriously undermined what would have been much better trade leverage.

As much as I liked Rubio, getting a first round pick for Rubio was probably as good as we could have gotten for him at the time. I fault Thibodeau the head coach for not wanting to coach him and failing to effectively use him. And I fault Thibodeau the PBO for what I consider to be a less than optimal FA signing to replace him. But the trade itself eventually brought Okogie to the Wolves so I have to give Thibodeau a lot of credit for making the deal, rejecting trade offers for the pick and then making excellent use of the pick by drafting Okogie.
Overall, I'd say the Rubio deal was a bright spot in Thibodeau's otherwise mediocre (at best) tenure as Wolves PBO.

lipoli390 wrote:

KG4Ever wrote:"Thibs has been a better front office guy than head coach for sure. I wish Glen would just force him into that role and hire a new coach. Likely won't happen"

Can't agree with you. I think he's been piss poor at both jobs, but I think his front office skills are far worse than his coaching.

I agree that Thibodeau has been bad at both jobs. Hard to say in which position he's been worse. Here's a short review of Thibodeau's major PBO decisions:

DRAFT PICKS
1. Drafted Dunn over Murray and Hield
2. Drafted Patton over John Collins and Anunoby.
3. Drafted Okogie and KBD.

So far I'd say he gets a D for his first to drafts and a B+ for his third draft.

FREE AGENT SIGNINGS/EXTENSIONS

1. Cole Aldrich FA signing
2. Brandon Rush FA signing
3. Jamaal Crawford FA signing
4. Jeff Teague FA signing
5. Aaron Brooks FA signing
6. Gorgui 4-yr. $15M p/yr extension
7. Taj Gibson FA signing
8. Derrick Rose FA signing
9. MGH - FA signing
10. Anthony Brown FA 2-way contract
11. Bazz multi-yr $10M p/yr signing attempt rejected by Bazz
12. Bazz min salary FA signing
13. Luol Deng FA signing
14. Anthony Tolliver FA signing
15. Andrew Wiggins max extension
16. KAT max extension

I'd say Thibodeau's FA and extension decisions before this summer were poor overall. The only decision that has proven to be a good one was the Taj signing. I'd give him a B+ for that one -- not an A because Thibodeau paid higher than market value to get him. The Teague signing was mediocre at best then you Teague's defensive deficiencies on a team that needed better defense above all else and Teague's contract. The lucrative extension he gave Gorgui was bad and the one he offered Bazz (rejected by Bazz) was ridiculous. The max extension he gave Wiggins is problematic at this point. After two years, it would seem that Thibodeau's done better this summer signing Tolliver and extending KAT, but that remains to be seen.

TRADES

1. LaVine, Dunn & 7th pick for Butler & 15th pick
2. Rubio for OKC first round pick

The Butler trade turned out to be a one-year rental that got us into the playoffs. I don't think we can fully evaluate that deal until we see what Thibodeau gets in return for Butler this year. I had my doubts about the Butler trade at the time because of Butler's injury history, difficulty with teammates and age mismatch with out core young players, but I wasn't opposed to it. I still don't fault Thibodeau too much for doing the deal. I fault him as PBO for failing to proactively deal with the problems surrounding Butler and the team months ago either by definitively resolving Butler's dissatisfaction and resolving the related disputes or by trading him before an 11th-hour trade demand that his seriously undermined what would have been much better trade leverage.

As much as I liked Rubio, getting a first round pick for Rubio was probably as good as we could have gotten for him at the time. I fault Thibodeau the head coach for not wanting to coach him and failing to effectively use him. And I fault Thibodeau the PBO for what I consider to be a less than optimal FA signing to replace him. But the trade itself eventually brought Okogie to the Wolves so I have to give Thibodeau a lot of credit for making the deal, rejecting trade offers for the pick and then making excellent use of the pick by drafting Okogie.
Overall, I'd say the Rubio deal was a bright spot in Thibodeau's otherwise mediocre (at best) tenure as Wolves PBO.

I think in the end we have not had a good front office since the western conference finals team. It has been a damn long time. Our last GMs have been pretty bad at talent evaluation during the draft. This will be the reason in the end Thibs gets fired but for the last 10 years it has been so shit.

2009: Rubio (Starter)
2009: Flynn (Out of the league)
2009: Ellington (Rotation player)
2009: Nick Calthes (out of the league)
2010: Wes Johnson (Low end rotation player)
2010: Lazar Hayward (Out of the league)
2011: Derrick Williams (Out of the League)
2012: Robbie Hummel: (Out of the League)
2013: Shabazz Muhammad: (Non-Rotation player/Possible out of the league)
2013: Gorgui Dieng (Rotation player)
2013: Lorenzo Brown (Out of the League)
2013: Bojan Dubjevic (Out of the League)
2014: Zach Lavine (Starter)
2014: Glenn Robinson (Low end rotation player)
2014: Markel Brown (Out of the League)
2015: Kat (All-NBA)
2015: Tyus Jones (Rotation Player)
2016: Kris Dunn (Low end starter/Rotation player)
2017: Justin Patton (not in rotation/Injury)

So the Last 9 drafts we have selected 19 players.

All-stars or All-NBA: 1 (KAT)
Current Starters: 4 (Rubio, Lavine, Dunn, Kat)
Rotation players: 3 (Tyus, Ellington, Gorgui)
On rosters but don't play much: 3 (GRlll, Shabazz, Wes Johnson)
Out of the league or haven't played. 9 (Patton, Brown, Dubjevic, Brown, Hummel, Williams, Hayward, Calthes, Flynn)


So of all this we have drafted 1 all NBA player and 4 guys total who are NBA starters (with Lavine might be better 6th man and Dunn is one of the worst starting PGs in the League.

Kahn selected: Rubio and Flynn over Curry. Selected Wes Johnson over George because of media pressure. Derrick Williams busted.

Flip in one draft: Passed on CJ Mccollum to trade back to select Bazz over Greak Freak, Gorgui over Gobert, traded a pick for cash for Andre Roberson. that is 2 players that are All NBA and 2 players that are starters on playoff teams. Also traded a 1st round pick for Payne who is out of the league before his rookie contracted ended. (Also I am assuming picked Wiggins over Embiid).

Thibs selected: Dunn over Hield and Murry and Selected Patton over OG, Collins, Allen



We have been so bad at drafting and talent evaluation way before Thibs and it continues to come with Thibs (I like Okogie and KBD but who knows).

Wolfson is reporting that the offers that the wolves have recieved.

Heat: Dragic and whiteside

Bucks: Brogdon and Bledsoe

Houston: tucker and Gordon


So in the end if those are the best we can get we can get let butler sit and be can walk at the end of the year.