Minnesota Sports Forum

thedoper wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

jester1534 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

TheSP wrote:If you wait to see what you have with young talent you're more likely to find the answer is "not much" than game changers.

Teams don't trade top 20 talents for proven nobody's. It's a gamble for all involved or the trade would never happen.

That works in football. Or baseball. Not in basketball.

Name the last nba championship caliber team that traded for an established #1 or #2 player...

They either drafted them or signed them in FA.

The last teams using trades were Boston, LA (Shaq, and Gasol, Kobe was a trade too technically), Miami (Shaq and Bosh-yes bosh was 3 but a vital part of that team). Plenty of great teams traded for stars. San Antonio is one of the few teams to continually draft light years ahead of everyone, Golden state is right there too but the KD signing muddies the waters.

Don't forget Dallas in 2010-11. Practically the only guy on that squad NOT traded for was Dirk. Kidd, Chandler, Butler, Terry....all acquired by Dallas via trades.

Beat me to it lol I also was gonna say that pistons team that won with Chauncey traded for Rasheed Wallace

And you're all missing the biggest point. What team won big when trading for a star without already having an established one? Pistons are an outlier - no true star just a great fit all around. Miami had wade and a committed LeBron. LA had Kobe. Dallas had Dirk. Boston had Pierce.

We jumped the gun. Rationalize all you want, but its the truth. The trade never should have happened.

You asked to list teams that traded for their 1 or 2. 6 teams were listed.

To your point I think that your saying that KAT isn't a star yet so we should have waited to see if we could draft or develop someone better than KAT? Fair point. But none of Markanen, Lavine or Dunn is going to be anywhere near KAT so the trade is still ok unless your saying that we would have been better off losing and getting another draft pick who may be better than KAT?

I'm saying you don't make a drastic change without knowing what you currently have. Kat was and still is a hopeful star. Wiggins is hopefully going to be good. When you don't have a certain in the NBA like wade, Kobe, lebron, Jordan, etc. You sit put and keep drafting high. Trade off the young guys for more picks or young potential. You don't trade for a certain thing to join an unknown thing with the idea that they will accept the additional burden of fixing issues.

Its akin to having a start up business on the trend up and then hiring someone who comes in and uproots that system.

Thibs was the wrong hire. Then his trade doubled down on it.

kekgeek1 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

jester1534 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

TheSP wrote:If you wait to see what you have with young talent you're more likely to find the answer is "not much" than game changers.

Teams don't trade top 20 talents for proven nobody's. It's a gamble for all involved or the trade would never happen.

That works in football. Or baseball. Not in basketball.

Name the last nba championship caliber team that traded for an established #1 or #2 player...

They either drafted them or signed them in FA.

The last teams using trades were Boston, LA (Shaq, and Gasol, Kobe was a trade too technically), Miami (Shaq and Bosh-yes bosh was 3 but a vital part of that team). Plenty of great teams traded for stars. San Antonio is one of the few teams to continually draft light years ahead of everyone, Golden state is right there too but the KD signing muddies the waters.

Don't forget Dallas in 2010-11. Practically the only guy on that squad NOT traded for was Dirk. Kidd, Chandler, Butler, Terry....all acquired by Dallas via trades.

Beat me to it lol I also was gonna say that pistons team that won with Chauncey traded for Rasheed Wallace

And you're all missing the biggest point. What team won big when trading for a star without already having an established one? Pistons are an outlier - no true star just a great fit all around. Miami had wade and a committed LeBron. LA had Kobe. Dallas had Dirk. Boston had Pierce.

We jumped the gun. Rationalize all you want, but its the truth. The trade never should have happened.

You asked to list teams that traded for their 1 or 2. 6 teams were listed.

To your point I think that your saying that KAT isn't a star yet so we should have waited to see if we could draft or develop someone better than KAT? Fair point. But none of Markanen, Lavine or Dunn is going to be anywhere near KAT so the trade is still ok unless your saying that we would have been better off losing and getting another draft pick who may be better than KAT?

You can also make the argument that Curry was at the same stage as Kat was when they traded for Iggy

That is nitpicking. Once in a lifetime doesn't set the trend.

TheFuture wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

jester1534 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

TheSP wrote:If you wait to see what you have with young talent you're more likely to find the answer is "not much" than game changers.

Teams don't trade top 20 talents for proven nobody's. It's a gamble for all involved or the trade would never happen.

That works in football. Or baseball. Not in basketball.

Name the last nba championship caliber team that traded for an established #1 or #2 player...

They either drafted them or signed them in FA.

The last teams using trades were Boston, LA (Shaq, and Gasol, Kobe was a trade too technically), Miami (Shaq and Bosh-yes bosh was 3 but a vital part of that team). Plenty of great teams traded for stars. San Antonio is one of the few teams to continually draft light years ahead of everyone, Golden state is right there too but the KD signing muddies the waters.

Don't forget Dallas in 2010-11. Practically the only guy on that squad NOT traded for was Dirk. Kidd, Chandler, Butler, Terry....all acquired by Dallas via trades.

Beat me to it lol I also was gonna say that pistons team that won with Chauncey traded for Rasheed Wallace

And you're all missing the biggest point. What team won big when trading for a star without already having an established one? Pistons are an outlier - no true star just a great fit all around. Miami had wade and a committed LeBron. LA had Kobe. Dallas had Dirk. Boston had Pierce.

We jumped the gun. Rationalize all you want, but its the truth. The trade never should have happened.

You asked to list teams that traded for their 1 or 2. 6 teams were listed.

To your point I think that your saying that KAT isn't a star yet so we should have waited to see if we could draft or develop someone better than KAT? Fair point. But none of Markanen, Lavine or Dunn is going to be anywhere near KAT so the trade is still ok unless your saying that we would have been better off losing and getting another draft pick who may be better than KAT?

You can also make the argument that Curry was at the same stage as Kat was when they traded for Iggy

That is nitpicking. Once in a lifetime doesn't set the trend.

I'm legit curious can you name examples that teams traded for a star that it didn't work even that team didn't have a star already

TheFuture wrote:

thedoper wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

jester1534 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

TheSP wrote:If you wait to see what you have with young talent you're more likely to find the answer is "not much" than game changers.

Teams don't trade top 20 talents for proven nobody's. It's a gamble for all involved or the trade would never happen.

That works in football. Or baseball. Not in basketball.

Name the last nba championship caliber team that traded for an established #1 or #2 player...

They either drafted them or signed them in FA.

The last teams using trades were Boston, LA (Shaq, and Gasol, Kobe was a trade too technically), Miami (Shaq and Bosh-yes bosh was 3 but a vital part of that team). Plenty of great teams traded for stars. San Antonio is one of the few teams to continually draft light years ahead of everyone, Golden state is right there too but the KD signing muddies the waters.

Don't forget Dallas in 2010-11. Practically the only guy on that squad NOT traded for was Dirk. Kidd, Chandler, Butler, Terry....all acquired by Dallas via trades.

Beat me to it lol I also was gonna say that pistons team that won with Chauncey traded for Rasheed Wallace

And you're all missing the biggest point. What team won big when trading for a star without already having an established one? Pistons are an outlier - no true star just a great fit all around. Miami had wade and a committed LeBron. LA had Kobe. Dallas had Dirk. Boston had Pierce.

We jumped the gun. Rationalize all you want, but its the truth. The trade never should have happened.

You asked to list teams that traded for their 1 or 2. 6 teams were listed.

To your point I think that your saying that KAT isn't a star yet so we should have waited to see if we could draft or develop someone better than KAT? Fair point. But none of Markanen, Lavine or Dunn is going to be anywhere near KAT so the trade is still ok unless your saying that we would have been better off losing and getting another draft pick who may be better than KAT?

I'm saying you don't make a drastic change without knowing what you currently have. Kat was and still is a hopeful star. Wiggins is hopefully going to be good. When you don't have a certain in the NBA like wade, Kobe, lebron, Jordan, etc. You sit put and keep drafting high. Trade off the young guys for more picks or young potential. You don't trade for a certain thing to join an unknown thing with the idea that they will accept the additional burden of fixing issues.

Its akin to having a start up business on the trend up and then hiring someone who comes in and uproots that system.

Thibs was the wrong hire. Then his trade doubled down on it.

I think I see your point now. But what happens when those young players get sick of losing and want out? I think KAT is really good, and wouldn't want to risk that situation. I like that he was in the playoffs, and is taking some heat now. Your Sam Hinkiesque approach comes with risks too as I see it, but fair enough.

kekgeek1 wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

jester1534 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

TheSP wrote:If you wait to see what you have with young talent you're more likely to find the answer is "not much" than game changers.

Teams don't trade top 20 talents for proven nobody's. It's a gamble for all involved or the trade would never happen.

That works in football. Or baseball. Not in basketball.

Name the last nba championship caliber team that traded for an established #1 or #2 player...

They either drafted them or signed them in FA.

The last teams using trades were Boston, LA (Shaq, and Gasol, Kobe was a trade too technically), Miami (Shaq and Bosh-yes bosh was 3 but a vital part of that team). Plenty of great teams traded for stars. San Antonio is one of the few teams to continually draft light years ahead of everyone, Golden state is right there too but the KD signing muddies the waters.

Don't forget Dallas in 2010-11. Practically the only guy on that squad NOT traded for was Dirk. Kidd, Chandler, Butler, Terry....all acquired by Dallas via trades.

Beat me to it lol I also was gonna say that pistons team that won with Chauncey traded for Rasheed Wallace

And you're all missing the biggest point. What team won big when trading for a star without already having an established one? Pistons are an outlier - no true star just a great fit all around. Miami had wade and a committed LeBron. LA had Kobe. Dallas had Dirk. Boston had Pierce.

We jumped the gun. Rationalize all you want, but its the truth. The trade never should have happened.

You asked to list teams that traded for their 1 or 2. 6 teams were listed.

To your point I think that your saying that KAT isn't a star yet so we should have waited to see if we could draft or develop someone better than KAT? Fair point. But none of Markanen, Lavine or Dunn is going to be anywhere near KAT so the trade is still ok unless your saying that we would have been better off losing and getting another draft pick who may be better than KAT?

You can also make the argument that Curry was at the same stage as Kat was when they traded for Iggy

That is nitpicking. Once in a lifetime doesn't set the trend.

I'm legit curious can you name examples that teams traded for a star that it didn't work even that team didn't have a star already

I can't name a bunch, because it simply doesn't happen by organizations that are not inept. And should never happen.

Bynum, Howard, Nash, Paul, KG, Pierce, Griffen, Melo to NYK, AI to denver are a few that come to mind.

Every other trade for a big name that has worked out has paired a star with a star or two.

Kg and Allen with pierce. Lebron and bosh with wade. Shaq with Kobe. Gasol with both. Love with kyroe and lebron. Etc.

So Thibs stance is not to trade Butler, but does that mean KAT isn't going to re-sign this off season?

I know Thibs doesn't want to step back and retool, but he gave Gorgui that ridiculous contract, so how do we justify bringing in a guy like Tobias Harris, who is in the last year of his deal and turned down an 80 mil extension with the LAC.

thedoper wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

thedoper wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

jester1534 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

TheSP wrote:If you wait to see what you have with young talent you're more likely to find the answer is "not much" than game changers.

Teams don't trade top 20 talents for proven nobody's. It's a gamble for all involved or the trade would never happen.

That works in football. Or baseball. Not in basketball.

Name the last nba championship caliber team that traded for an established #1 or #2 player...

They either drafted them or signed them in FA.

The last teams using trades were Boston, LA (Shaq, and Gasol, Kobe was a trade too technically), Miami (Shaq and Bosh-yes bosh was 3 but a vital part of that team). Plenty of great teams traded for stars. San Antonio is one of the few teams to continually draft light years ahead of everyone, Golden state is right there too but the KD signing muddies the waters.

Don't forget Dallas in 2010-11. Practically the only guy on that squad NOT traded for was Dirk. Kidd, Chandler, Butler, Terry....all acquired by Dallas via trades.

Beat me to it lol I also was gonna say that pistons team that won with Chauncey traded for Rasheed Wallace

And you're all missing the biggest point. What team won big when trading for a star without already having an established one? Pistons are an outlier - no true star just a great fit all around. Miami had wade and a committed LeBron. LA had Kobe. Dallas had Dirk. Boston had Pierce.

We jumped the gun. Rationalize all you want, but its the truth. The trade never should have happened.

You asked to list teams that traded for their 1 or 2. 6 teams were listed.

To your point I think that your saying that KAT isn't a star yet so we should have waited to see if we could draft or develop someone better than KAT? Fair point. But none of Markanen, Lavine or Dunn is going to be anywhere near KAT so the trade is still ok unless your saying that we would have been better off losing and getting another draft pick who may be better than KAT?

I'm saying you don't make a drastic change without knowing what you currently have. Kat was and still is a hopeful star. Wiggins is hopefully going to be good. When you don't have a certain in the NBA like wade, Kobe, lebron, Jordan, etc. You sit put and keep drafting high. Trade off the young guys for more picks or young potential. You don't trade for a certain thing to join an unknown thing with the idea that they will accept the additional burden of fixing issues.

Its akin to having a start up business on the trend up and then hiring someone who comes in and uproots that system.

Thibs was the wrong hire. Then his trade doubled down on it.

I think I see your point now. But what happens when those young players get sick of losing and want out? I think KAT is really good, and wouldn't want to risk that situation. I like that he was in the playoffs, and is taking some heat now. Your Sam Hinkiesque approach comes with risks too as I see it, but fair enough.

I believe in KAT. I believe in Wiggins. Just like I believed in LaVine and Dunn. And would have with our #7 pick and our two lottery picks this last draft. And likely lottery pick this year when looking at the west.

Those players come in knowing they are expected to be the answer to turn over a fail of a franchise. Then you trade their young compatriots for an established vet and sign an established vet or two. Okay, now you've convinced these 20 year olds that we are on the cusp of something. One year later that star vet wants the fuck out. So, instead of building a new foundation - you have accelerated the destruction of it. Next, your hopeful star (KAT) is looking for the nearest exit. Because what does he have to go off of as a 22 year old? Multiple vets who have said fuck this environment.

We had two options:

We either needed to keep building organically and keep our ineptitude behind closed doors until we broke through. Or we attempt to accelerate reality and trade for a star eho doesnt want to be here to give a semblance of satisfaction to our fan base while setting ourselves back 3-5 more years.

Most of you rallied behind a playoff berth because its been so long. Yay!!!! We made it!!! Was so great to witness an ass whooping!!!!

We got crushed. And lost collateral to attempt to reign when the fuckinf dream team and LeBron are at their end.

Abe questioned my familiarity with the team. Well I pose this - what's more important to you? Getting to the playoffs or actually winning in them? Cause you don't go from #7 to a contender by adding jimmy Butler.

And don't give me the rationalization of, " we need to build a winning culture". Screw that. These people are professionals at a game. Their whole lives have been about winning. Its not like they wake up looking to lose. They always compete.

They have it or they don't.

It all falls on glen Taylor ultimately, and we should stop giving him excuses. We should be at his door.

There has been only one person that he hired that wasn't inept and unfortunately he was taken too soon.

RIP Flip

TheFuture wrote:

TheSP wrote:If you wait to see what you have with young talent you're more likely to find the answer is "not much" than game changers.

Teams don't trade top 20 talents for proven nobody's. It's a gamble for all involved or the trade would never happen.

That works in football. Or baseball. Not in basketball.

Name the last nba championship caliber team that traded for an established #1 or #2 player...

They either drafted them or signed them in FA.

Houston Rockets who used trades to acquire Harden and Paul.

Back to your earlier point, do you believe that Chicago makes the Butler trade if we were at the point where we know Zach is at best a 6th man type and Dunn was going to be a bottom 10 PG? We got Butler because Chicago believed there was the chance that both would grow into quality NBA starters and a high draft pick would also have that opportunity.

We're still waiting to see what we have in Wiggins and the outlook isn't good when you consider that relative to his contract. In each of the upcoming 2-3 season Wiggins value is going to continue to drop unless he makes an unexpected, drastic improvement.

Out of curiosity, when was the last time two known quantities, both top 20 talents were swapped?

TheSP wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

TheSP wrote:If you wait to see what you have with young talent you're more likely to find the answer is "not much" than game changers.

Teams don't trade top 20 talents for proven nobody's. It's a gamble for all involved or the trade would never happen.

That works in football. Or baseball. Not in basketball.

Name the last nba championship caliber team that traded for an established #1 or #2 player...

They either drafted them or signed them in FA.

Houston Rockets who used trades to acquire Harden and Paul.

Back to your earlier point, do you believe that Chicago makes the Butler trade if we were at the point where we know Zach is at best a 6th man type and Dunn was going to be a bottom 10 PG? We got Butler because Chicago believed there was the chance that both would grow into quality NBA starters and a high draft pick would also have that opportunity.

We're still waiting to see what we have in Wiggins and the outlook isn't good when you consider that relative to his contract. In each of the upcoming 2-3 season Wiggins value is going to continue to drop unless he makes an unexpected, drastic improvement.

Out of curiosity, when was the last time two known quantities, both top 20 talents were swapped?

Harden was still a large chance at the time. Look at the return.

Paul was a situation like we are in now. He forced it.

LaVine is a starter in today's league that wants spacers and a 5 that defends and rebounds.

Dunn will be a starter because he can lock down either guard spot and showed some offensive game.

Dunn/LaVine/Wiggins/Markannen/KAT give me that.

I'll catch heat for this I'm sure, but our biggest issue is that we have our team tied up to a 5 who needs the ball and cannot or will not play defense. I wouldn't trade KAT right now unless it was a truck of stars, but if he will not commit on defense then that will change. His value in this league will plummet.

Not sure what you meant by your top 20 for 20 trade??

Yeah, equal talent doesn't get traded. And teams that aren't competitive don't trade for top talent until they are ready. Prove to me where someone traded for a top 20 talent while being a bottom feeder and went on to do anything special.

TheFuture wrote:

thedoper wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

thedoper wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

jester1534 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

TheSP wrote:If you wait to see what you have with young talent you're more likely to find the answer is "not much" than game changers.

Teams don't trade top 20 talents for proven nobody's. It's a gamble for all involved or the trade would never happen.

That works in football. Or baseball. Not in basketball.

Name the last nba championship caliber team that traded for an established #1 or #2 player...

They either drafted them or signed them in FA.

The last teams using trades were Boston, LA (Shaq, and Gasol, Kobe was a trade too technically), Miami (Shaq and Bosh-yes bosh was 3 but a vital part of that team). Plenty of great teams traded for stars. San Antonio is one of the few teams to continually draft light years ahead of everyone, Golden state is right there too but the KD signing muddies the waters.

Don't forget Dallas in 2010-11. Practically the only guy on that squad NOT traded for was Dirk. Kidd, Chandler, Butler, Terry....all acquired by Dallas via trades.

Beat me to it lol I also was gonna say that pistons team that won with Chauncey traded for Rasheed Wallace

And you're all missing the biggest point. What team won big when trading for a star without already having an established one? Pistons are an outlier - no true star just a great fit all around. Miami had wade and a committed LeBron. LA had Kobe. Dallas had Dirk. Boston had Pierce.

We jumped the gun. Rationalize all you want, but its the truth. The trade never should have happened.

You asked to list teams that traded for their 1 or 2. 6 teams were listed.

To your point I think that your saying that KAT isn't a star yet so we should have waited to see if we could draft or develop someone better than KAT? Fair point. But none of Markanen, Lavine or Dunn is going to be anywhere near KAT so the trade is still ok unless your saying that we would have been better off losing and getting another draft pick who may be better than KAT?

I'm saying you don't make a drastic change without knowing what you currently have. Kat was and still is a hopeful star. Wiggins is hopefully going to be good. When you don't have a certain in the NBA like wade, Kobe, lebron, Jordan, etc. You sit put and keep drafting high. Trade off the young guys for more picks or young potential. You don't trade for a certain thing to join an unknown thing with the idea that they will accept the additional burden of fixing issues.

Its akin to having a start up business on the trend up and then hiring someone who comes in and uproots that system.

Thibs was the wrong hire. Then his trade doubled down on it.

I think I see your point now. But what happens when those young players get sick of losing and want out? I think KAT is really good, and wouldn't want to risk that situation. I like that he was in the playoffs, and is taking some heat now. Your Sam Hinkiesque approach comes with risks too as I see it, but fair enough.

I believe in KAT. I believe in Wiggins. Just like I believed in LaVine and Dunn. And would have with our #7 pick and our two lottery picks this last draft. And likely lottery pick this year when looking at the west.

Those players come in knowing they are expected to be the answer to turn over a fail of a franchise. Then you trade their young compatriots for an established vet and sign an established vet or two. Okay, now you've convinced these 20 year olds that we are on the cusp of something. One year later that star vet wants the fuck out. So, instead of building a new foundation - you have accelerated the destruction of it. Next, your hopeful star (KAT) is looking for the nearest exit. Because what does he have to go off of as a 22 year old? Multiple vets who have said fuck this environment.

We had two options:

We either needed to keep building organically and keep our ineptitude behind closed doors until we broke through. Or we attempt to accelerate reality and trade for a star eho doesnt want to be here to give a semblance of satisfaction to our fan base while setting ourselves back 3-5 more years.

Most of you rallied behind a playoff berth because its been so long. Yay!!!! We made it!!! Was so great to witness an ass whooping!!!!

We got crushed. And lost collateral to attempt to reign when the fuckinf dream team and LeBron are at their end.

Abe questioned my familiarity with the team. Well I pose this - what's more important to you? Getting to the playoffs or actually winning in them? Cause you don't go from #7 to a contender by adding jimmy Butler.

You also never go from perpetual lottery team to contender without adding quality vets who actually play significant roles along the way. Tyus/Dunn/Lavine/Markanen/Towns/this year's lottery pick. There's not a good team in the NBA built around that much young talent getting playing time. You get to pick 3 and build around them and that's the best case scenario (see GS). And you only get to pick 3 because the money adds up as time goes on. Lavine/Wiggins/Towns is what 78+ million. Then you need to pay Tyus. Next summer would be Dunn. Then Markanen and you just can't keep that many young players on your team all needing new deals. So who are your 3 long-term in that scenario that contend with vets around them?

Zach/Wiggins/Towns - great offensive talent but no defense at all and no primary ball handler who can score and make plays for teammates

Wiggins/Markanen/Towns - worst defensive frontcourt in the NBA and no scoring and playmaking guard who can take advantage of the spacing that frontcourt provides

Tyus/Wiggins/Towns - probably the most balanced of the bunch in terms of matching team needs, but I don't think Tyus can be the 3rd best player on a contender

Dunn/Wiggins/Towns - defensive potential on the wing with bad offense because we wouldn't have a decent ball handler between those 3 and 2 of the 3 struggle to shoot jumpers

The draft pick would have likely been in the 8-14 range so that's Colin Sexton, Knox, both Bridges, SGA, Jerome Robinson, and Porter. I don't see a star in that bunch so we'd still be looking for that 3rd guy. If any of you see 1 of those guys being the 3rd keeper next to Towns and Wiggins shout them out. I don't see it.

Long-term this team needs an elite guard next to Wiggins and Towns to run the show. That's our only shot at contention in my mind and I don't see that guy on the team if we don't make the Jimmy trade so winning was the better play. The league is about ball handlers. Whether you are a guard or a wing you need an offensive guy who can create off the dribble and make plays for teammates when the defense tries to stop them. Curry, KD, Harden, CP3, Lillard, CJ, Mitchell, Russ, PG, LeBron and on and on. Neither Wiggins or Towns are that guy and there's a reason we saw such a high winning percentage when Jimmy played. He's that guy. If he's not staying that needs to be the mold of the 3rd guy we pick as the keeper next to Wiggins and Towns. That's the only path to contender no matter when you are trying to contend.