Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:

Hicks123 wrote:Didn't read all comments, but guy that may be looked at down the road as a "smart pick" is Liddell. I know he is on smallish side for PF, but he is productive. There are always a few of these dudes that slide because they are not "ideal PF size", but they are simply good ball players and carve out long careers. He is also a strong shot blocker to boot.

Would certainly be a guy to look at in round 1 considering he will be one of the most ready guys to contribute to immediate positive basketball play.

Yes, Liddell is among the guys I'm interested in for the Wolves at #19. I like his toughness.

"Liddell measured in at 6-foot-7 in shoes and 243 pounds. Again, this is close to what he was listed as by the Scarlet and Gray last season, at 6-foot-7 and 240 pounds. Liddell has a 6-foot, 11.75-inch wingspan, an 8-foot, 7.5-inch standing reach and 12.2 percent body fat."

https://247sports.com/college/ohio-state/Article/Ohio-State-basketball-Malaki-Branham-EJ-Liddell-receive-measurements-at-2022-NBA-Combine-187703721/Amp/

I still like Liddell but he is undersized even for the modern game at PF. I'll be surprised if there isn't at least a couple other players I like more than him at #19.

Meanwhile on the other spectrum Mark Williams combine numbers...if you like tall guys with long arms he has that along with a couple other guys. Williams is 7' without shoes with a 7'6.5" wingspan and 9'9" standing reach. I mean he can just stand somewhere in front of someone and have his hands a few inches below the rim. Size isn't everything but you can't teach it. :)

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Hicks123 wrote:Didn't read all comments, but guy that may be looked at down the road as a "smart pick" is Liddell. I know he is on smallish side for PF, but he is productive. There are always a few of these dudes that slide because they are not "ideal PF size", but they are simply good ball players and carve out long careers. He is also a strong shot blocker to boot.

Would certainly be a guy to look at in round 1 considering he will be one of the most ready guys to contribute to immediate positive basketball play.

Yes, Liddell is among the guys I'm interested in for the Wolves at #19. I like his toughness.

"Liddell measured in at 6-foot-7 in shoes and 243 pounds. Again, this is close to what he was listed as by the Scarlet and Gray last season, at 6-foot-7 and 240 pounds. Liddell has a 6-foot, 11.75-inch wingspan, an 8-foot, 7.5-inch standing reach and 12.2 percent body fat."

https://247sports.com/college/ohio-state/Article/Ohio-State-basketball-Malaki-Branham-EJ-Liddell-receive-measurements-at-2022-NBA-Combine-187703721/Amp/

I still like Liddell but he is undersized even for the modern game at PF. I'll be surprised if there isn't at least a couple other players I like more than him at #19.

Meanwhile on the other spectrum Mark Williams combine numbers...if you like tall guys with long arms he has that along with a couple other guys. Williams is 7' without shoes with a 7'6.5" wingspan and 9'9" standing reach. I mean he can just stand somewhere in front of someone and have his hands a few inches below the rim. Size isn't everything but you can't teach it. :)

I agree, Monster. I'm afraid that Liddell's productivity might fall off precipitously when he gets to the NBA and faces much bigger, faster NBA players. On the other hand, we all know what Charles Barkley was able to accomplish and he wasn't any bigger than Liddell. Brandon Clarke has done well as a rotation NBA PF. He measured in the combine as 6'7.25 tall without shoes and had a standing reach of only 8'6 with a wingspan of only 6'8.25. He weighed in at 207 pounds with 4.9% body fat. So Liddell is slightly longer and significantly wider and heavier than Clarke. Moreover, Liddell's 12.2% body fat number tells me he can probably improve his quickness and athleticism while still holding his weight by replacing a lot of fat with lean muscle mass. He appears to have a great motor, which should translate into a work ethic to do what it takes to get leaner, stronger, faster and better. Having said all that, I come back to your point about size as something you can't teach and Mark Williams has tremendous size. Williams has also shown the ability to use that size productively as a shot-blocker, rebounder and finisher around the rim. I actually think it's a pretty close call between these two, but right now I'd lean towards Williams in a choice between those two.

Brandon Clarke, PJ Tucker, Jae Crowder, Grant Williams, Draymond Green.....Liddell is as big or bigger than every one of these guys.

The real question isn't size or length with Liddell, but foot speed. Can he guard in space? Today's 4s have to be able to do that.

Q-was-here wrote:Brandon Clarke, PJ Tucker, Jae Crowder, Grant Williams, Draymond Green.....Liddell is as big or bigger than every one of these guys.

The real question isn't size or length with Liddell, but foot speed. Can he guard in space? Today's 4s have to be able to do that.

I believe measurements matter but it's not everything as you have shown here. Athleticism matters but so does skill. Sabonis is strong and super skilled and just a good basketball player. Even if Liddell slimmed down some he would still be pretty strong at what like 235? That matters too.

I just tend to think at #19 there will be guys I think are simply a better prospect than Liddell. If we are taking a few picks later it likely would be different. He is the type of player that goes later in the 2nd round or early in the 2nd that makes me like having those picks.

monsterpile wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:Brandon Clarke, PJ Tucker, Jae Crowder, Grant Williams, Draymond Green.....Liddell is as big or bigger than every one of these guys.

The real question isn't size or length with Liddell, but foot speed. Can he guard in space? Today's 4s have to be able to do that.

I believe measurements matter but it's not everything as you have shown here. Athleticism matters but so does skill. Sabonis is strong and super skilled and just a good basketball player. Even if Liddell slimmed down some he would still be pretty strong at what like 235? That matters too.

I just tend to think at #19 there will be guys I think are simply a better prospect than Liddell. If we are taking a few picks later it likely would be different. He is the type of player that goes later in the 2nd round or early in the 2nd that makes me like having those picks.

Yeah, I haven't paid much attention to draft prospects this year (thank God! It's nice to follow a winner versus opening up draft threads in January!), so I can't really speak to Liddell versus other prospects. He appears to be a productive player on paper. I was mostly just commenting that his size really shouldn't be an inhibitor to drafting him and projecting him as an NBA PF.

Q-was-here wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:Brandon Clarke, PJ Tucker, Jae Crowder, Grant Williams, Draymond Green.....Liddell is as big or bigger than every one of these guys.

The real question isn't size or length with Liddell, but foot speed. Can he guard in space? Today's 4s have to be able to do that.

I believe measurements matter but it's not everything as you have shown here. Athleticism matters but so does skill. Sabonis is strong and super skilled and just a good basketball player. Even if Liddell slimmed down some he would still be pretty strong at what like 235? That matters too.

I just tend to think at #19 there will be guys I think are simply a better prospect than Liddell. If we are taking a few picks later it likely would be different. He is the type of player that goes later in the 2nd round or early in the 2nd that makes me like having those picks.

Yeah, I haven't paid much attention to draft prospects this year (thank God! It's nice to follow a winner versus opening up draft threads in January!), so I can't really speak to Liddell versus other prospects. He appears to be a productive player on paper. I was mostly just commenting that his size really shouldn't be an inhibitor to drafting him and projecting him as an NBA PF.

I think we're all on the same page when it comes to size. It definitely matters - length and width/strength. Of course, foot speed is a huge factor along with vertical lift. Then as Monster notes, skill matters a lot too. I've watched a lot of video of Liddell. He's developed his shooting skills, but I still wonder whether his shooting improvement is permanent. He's ball-handling skills are terrible. I'm not sure about his quickness by NBA standards, but I would think he can get quicker without losing strength by significantly reducing his 12% body fat.

lipoli390 wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:Brandon Clarke, PJ Tucker, Jae Crowder, Grant Williams, Draymond Green.....Liddell is as big or bigger than every one of these guys.

The real question isn't size or length with Liddell, but foot speed. Can he guard in space? Today's 4s have to be able to do that.

I believe measurements matter but it's not everything as you have shown here. Athleticism matters but so does skill. Sabonis is strong and super skilled and just a good basketball player. Even if Liddell slimmed down some he would still be pretty strong at what like 235? That matters too.

I just tend to think at #19 there will be guys I think are simply a better prospect than Liddell. If we are taking a few picks later it likely would be different. He is the type of player that goes later in the 2nd round or early in the 2nd that makes me like having those picks.

Yeah, I haven't paid much attention to draft prospects this year (thank God! It's nice to follow a winner versus opening up draft threads in January!), so I can't really speak to Liddell versus other prospects. He appears to be a productive player on paper. I was mostly just commenting that his size really shouldn't be an inhibitor to drafting him and projecting him as an NBA PF.

I think we're all on the same page when it comes to size. It definitely matters - length and width/strength. Of course, foot speed is a huge factor along with vertical lift. Then as Monster notes, skill matters a lot too. I've watched a lot of video of Liddell. He's developed his shooting skills, but I still wonder whether his shooting improvement is permanent. He's ball-handling skills are terrible. I'm not sure about his quickness by NBA standards, but I would think he can get quicker without losing strength by significantly reducing his 12% body fat.

A few days ago I was watching him do some shooting drills via Mike Schmitz Twitter account and let's just say it didn't make me believe in that shot. I'll have to watch some more game video of him. The guy I thought of when I was was watching him in the tourney was actually Thad young another guys that's undersized and ended up being a pretty good player (heck still is) but yeah Thad had an interesting career progression.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:Brandon Clarke, PJ Tucker, Jae Crowder, Grant Williams, Draymond Green.....Liddell is as big or bigger than every one of these guys.

The real question isn't size or length with Liddell, but foot speed. Can he guard in space? Today's 4s have to be able to do that.

I believe measurements matter but it's not everything as you have shown here. Athleticism matters but so does skill. Sabonis is strong and super skilled and just a good basketball player. Even if Liddell slimmed down some he would still be pretty strong at what like 235? That matters too.

I just tend to think at #19 there will be guys I think are simply a better prospect than Liddell. If we are taking a few picks later it likely would be different. He is the type of player that goes later in the 2nd round or early in the 2nd that makes me like having those picks.

Yeah, I haven't paid much attention to draft prospects this year (thank God! It's nice to follow a winner versus opening up draft threads in January!), so I can't really speak to Liddell versus other prospects. He appears to be a productive player on paper. I was mostly just commenting that his size really shouldn't be an inhibitor to drafting him and projecting him as an NBA PF.

I think we're all on the same page when it comes to size. It definitely matters - length and width/strength. Of course, foot speed is a huge factor along with vertical lift. Then as Monster notes, skill matters a lot too. I've watched a lot of video of Liddell. He's developed his shooting skills, but I still wonder whether his shooting improvement is permanent. He's ball-handling skills are terrible. I'm not sure about his quickness by NBA standards, but I would think he can get quicker without losing strength by significantly reducing his 12% body fat.

A few days ago I was watching him do some shooting drills via Mike Schmitz Twitter account and let's just say it didn't make me believe in that shot. I'll have to watch some more game video of him. The guy I thought of when I was was watching him in the tourney was actually Thad young another guys that's undersized and ended up being a pretty good player (heck still is) but yeah Thad had an interesting career progression.

Good info, Monster. I recommend watching the EJ Liddell scouting video called "The Box And One Basketball Analysis with Coach Spins. It's one of the best video scouting reports on the Web. This video series does a great job of showcasing and explaining each player's player's strengths while not holding back on discussing their weaknesses. Let me know what you think after you've watched it.

Monster - One thing you'll notice in that video scouting report on Liddell is that he appears to have great foot speed and excellent vertical lift. The imagine his speed and verticality if he cuts his body fat from 12% to 6%, which should be expected.

lipoli390 wrote:Monster - One thing you'll notice in that video scouting report on Liddell is that he appears to have great foot speed and excellent vertical lift. The imagine his speed and verticality if he cuts his body fat from 12% to 6%, which should be expected.

I watched it and it was pretty good thanks for the recommendation.

I'll say this the first few clips where he was supppsed to be shoring off his ability to switch on guards I was actually like...oh no this guy is gonna get cooked in the NBA. Of course he has that unique shot locking ability to recover and I think he is better going straight forward than he is side to side. I'm not saying he isn't mobile but I was actually expecting more in that way. He also seems more vertically explosive than side to side. I thought the point about him being a low finisher was interesting.

On his weight. You had me going down a rabbit hole looking at past drafts at that body fat metric. Here is a fun stat. Naz had the highest body fat in his class at 14% and it's pretty clear he worked hard on his body. He weighed 255 at the combine. What do you think he weights now? NBA.com has him listed at 263. I was a little surprised. So he clearly got in better shape and gained weight? I mean it makes sense but you would also think he would play with more strength and force than that. Anyways Liddell could do something similar and be a beast.

Below is the workout that I saw where I questioned his shot. I'm not suggesting he can't shoot or it's broken and it's a workout but yeah.

https://twitter.com/Mike_Schmitz/status/1524389180494671878?s=20&t=10Xs6FNHNs-GB2DUiBojnw

I still like him and yet I stick with my position he is a guy that's at the end of the first round or the 2nd. Some team could take him higher than that and I probably wouldn't knock them. I'll do a little more research but I think this draft has some depth to it and honestly I think there is likely simply more talent than there ever has been before and the G-league is a much better tool to help develop it than anything that was in place before. Some guys would end up doing well playing in other leagues but I think for a greater swath of players the G-league gives them a better chance at developing and having success...including maybe even eventually playing international ball.