Wiseman at #1

[Lipoli390]

This is quite a discussion. I think most of us agree the best option would be to find a good trade down opportunity. What makes that hard is the same reasons we want out of #1, are the same reasons other teams would be hesitant to trade into #1. I'd obviously rather have the 1st pick than the 5th, but this asset is relatively less valuable than it could be. Rather than trading down for a role player and a pick, I hope Rosas is turning over every stone to try and find a very good young player with plenty of upside off a team that needs to rebuild. When i say this i think of Bradley Beal or someone of that ilk.

Cool - I agree that the best option would be a trade for a true star on the front end of his prime. I also agree that the only chance of that would be a deal with a team ready to blow it up and rebuild. Bradley Beal is the guy who comes to my mind as well. He's a 27 year old offensive star who has turned into a decent defender. At age 27, he is smack dab in the middle of his prime - only 3 years older than our current top two players. And the Wizards should be considering a rebuild at this point. I'm not sure what it would take beyond our #1 pick to get him. I could see the Warriors having an interest in him and they have our 2021 first and second round picks along with their own picks to offer. Meanwhile, I don't see the Sixers launching a rebuild and that means Simmons isn't a realistic target.

I honestly can't think of a player on a team ready to rebuild, other than Beal, who would fit the mold of a true star close in age to Russell and KAT. So to land a 3rd core player for this team, Rosas will probably have to do what almost all the top NBA front office heads have done, namely land a future all-star in the draft. He has three chances this year, including the top pick and the 17th pick. My only quibble with you is the assumption that trading down means settling for a role player. I disagree even though I understand the odds. Like nearly every draft, there are future all-stars in this draft who won't be selected in the top 3 or even the top 5. And while I have misgivings about all of the top three prospects in this draft, it's still true that all three of them appear to have all-star talent.

[WildWolf2813]

I keep considering the 1st and 17th pick as a package deal.

Would I rather have Wiseman and Maxey or Hampton or one of those guards who will slip to #17 or would I have LaMelo Ball and Paul Reed or Jalen Smith or someone else at #17? I know this class sucks and there's this idea that the best player will be picked in the teens somewhere. Guess what? The Wolves pick at 17 as well, so they have 2 cracks at it.

There's also the factor of keeping Malik Beasley and how that will work as well as what the Wolves do at PF. As I said in the Bubble thread, I hope Rosas sees that this Rockets model doesn't work long term and can make adjustments where the Wolves have a different identity. I don't worry about 2 centers. If anything, Towns has no right to complain if the Wolves did grab Wiseman because it would only be due to Towns' nonexistent defense. If they went Ball, clearly he has something Russell hasn't provided. Rosas isn't gonna get another crack at the Beal's and Simmons' and Booker's after this season barring a trade for future assets, so he has to bet his job on whoever he picks.

Between Beasley and maybe bringing in Campazzo and already having Russell/Okogie/Culver AND still wanting another guard either at 1 or 17, the Wolves have to put whoever they draft in a position to succeed.

[Coolbreeze44]

This is quite a discussion. I think most of us agree the best option would be to find a good trade down opportunity. What makes that hard is the same reasons we want out of #1, are the same reasons other teams would be hesitant to trade into #1. I'd obviously rather have the 1st pick than the 5th, but this asset is relatively less valuable than it could be. Rather than trading down for a role player and a pick, I hope Rosas is turning over every stone to try and find a very good young player with plenty of upside off a team that needs to rebuild. When i say this i think of Bradley Beal or someone of that ilk.

Cool - I agree that the best option would be a trade for a true star on the front end of his prime. I also agree that the only chance of that would be a deal with a team ready to blow it up and rebuild. Bradley Beal is the guy who comes to my mind as well. He's a 27 year old offensive star who has turned into a decent defender. At age 27, he is smack dab in the middle of his prime - only 3 years older than our current top two players. And the Wizards should be considering a rebuild at this point. I'm not sure what it would take beyond our #1 pick to get him. I could see the Warriors having an interest in him and they have our 2021 first and second round picks along with their own picks to offer. Meanwhile, I don't see the Sixers launching a rebuild and that means Simmons isn't a realistic target.

I honestly can't think of a player on a team ready to rebuild, other than Beal, who would fit the mold of a true star close in age to Russell and KAT. So to land a 3rd core player for this team, Rosas will probably have to do what almost all the top NBA front office heads have done, namely land a future all-star in the draft. He has three chances this year, including the top pick and the 17th pick. My only quibble with you is the assumption that trading down means settling for a role player. I disagree even though I understand the odds. Like nearly every draft, there are future all-stars in this draft who won't be selected in the top 3 or even the top 5. And while I have misgivings about all of the top three prospects in this draft, it's still true that all three of them appear to have all-star talent.

Hey Lip, what i meant was getting an existing role player in addition to the first round pick we would receive. I think it would be a longshot to get a starter and a pick in the 5-10 range.

[Lipoli390]

This is quite a discussion. I think most of us agree the best option would be to find a good trade down opportunity. What makes that hard is the same reasons we want out of #1, are the same reasons other teams would be hesitant to trade into #1. I'd obviously rather have the 1st pick than the 5th, but this asset is relatively less valuable than it could be. Rather than trading down for a role player and a pick, I hope Rosas is turning over every stone to try and find a very good young player with plenty of upside off a team that needs to rebuild. When i say this i think of Bradley Beal or someone of that ilk.

Cool - I agree that the best option would be a trade for a true star on the front end of his prime. I also agree that the only chance of that would be a deal with a team ready to blow it up and rebuild. Bradley Beal is the guy who comes to my mind as well. He's a 27 year old offensive star who has turned into a decent defender. At age 27, he is smack dab in the middle of his prime - only 3 years older than our current top two players. And the Wizards should be considering a rebuild at this point. I'm not sure what it would take beyond our #1 pick to get him. I could see the Warriors having an interest in him and they have our 2021 first and second round picks along with their own picks to offer. Meanwhile, I don't see the Sixers launching a rebuild and that means Simmons isn't a realistic target.

I honestly can't think of a player on a team ready to rebuild, other than Beal, who would fit the mold of a true star close in age to Russell and KAT. So to land a 3rd core player for this team, Rosas will probably have to do what almost all the top NBA front office heads have done, namely land a future all-star in the draft. He has three chances this year, including the top pick and the 17th pick. My only quibble with you is the assumption that trading down means settling for a role player. I disagree even though I understand the odds. Like nearly every draft, there are future all-stars in this draft who won't be selected in the top 3 or even the top 5. And while I have misgivings about all of the top three prospects in this draft, it's still true that all three of them appear to have all-star talent.

Hey Lip, what i meant was getting an existing role player in addition to the first round pick we would receive. I think it would be a longshot to get a starter and a pick in the 5-10 range.

I see you point, Cool. I can't disagree with you that getting a starter and a pick in the 5-10 range would be a long shot. But it's hard to know. Does Atlanta's front office really covet Edwards as a potential future SG to pair with Young for a potentially dynamic elite backcourt? Maybe. If so, then I can see getting the Hawks #5 pick and Heurter. That might be wishful thinking.

There seems to be a bit of group think going on that has nearly everyone, fans and analysts, concluding that it's a really weak draft class this year. I've been a contributor to that thinking. But the more I reflect the more convinced I am that this is a really talented draft class. We all tend to focus a lot on the negatives associated with draft prospects and I think we're doing more of that this year than in the past. I think our focus on the negatives has overtaken a full acknowledgement of their strengths. Wiseman, Edwards and Ball are immensely talented. For me, Edwards is the most impressive to watch. His combination of size and athleticism is truly elite and although his shooting percentages weren't impressive, he has a beautiful looking shot with a great step-back move. He's also very young. Even outside those top three, I'd say that Okongwu, Toppin, Deni, Patrick Williams, Haliburton and Vassell all have elite talent and the potential to become all-star caliber NBA players. Saddiq Bey, Kira Lewis, Tyler Terry, Precious Achiuwa, Vernon Carey and Isaac Okoro are also really talented players. Jalen Smith and even Paul Reed can't be overlooked as potential all-star caliber players down the road.

The best organizations in any field set high expectations for their leaders with no excuses. If I were Glen Taylor I'd tell our front office team that I expect them to draft at least one future all-star with the three picks they have. That should be the expectation. No excuses.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I would just say slow the roll on all the lack of passion for the game talk. Ball went to Lithuania and Australia so that he could get on a court to play when he left high school the first time and then skipped college because he was going to be ruled ineligible. Edwards went to a lower level program to play for a coach he believed could make him a better player rather than go to a big program and just be part of their cycle of one and done prospects they pump out. Wiseman had to fight the NCAA just to be able to play 3 games because his coach helped him move years before he became the coach of the program he eventually committed to. If you don't have a passion for the game none of those 3 do any of that. Wiseman would have just sat out the whole year and got ready for the draft. Edwards would have just gone to a big program and been another 1 and done on Calipari or Coach K's belt. Ball would have just stayed home and prepared for the draft rather than go to Australia and he would have just waited for the next high school season rather than go to Lithuania.

This board has been completely traumatized by Wiggins and is turning literally every prospect who isn't perfect like Zion and Ja into another Wiggins. Wiseman dominated in the 3 games he played. Edwards had to carry an entire offense on his shoulders because he had no help. Ball fought through limited minutes in both his international stints and after Aaron Brooks got hurt and he got more playing time in Australia he put up a couple triple doubles. A triple double is a triple double regardless of what league you do it in. You can question shot selection or defensive instincts or something else you want to on the court but let's cool it with the lack of passion for the game because it's just becoming an overused generic line used to downplay prospects when all 3 of these guys have shown a passion for the game in different ways.

To be fair... I don't put much stock in why Edwards claimed he went to Georgia. Maybe it was for a green light. Maybe it was a for a new car under the table. Neither is unheard of by any stretch. Neither is actually going there for the reasons he claimed. Nobody here has any idea what the truth is.

I don't put much stock in Wiseman overcoming some great atrocity when it comes to the shady Hardaway connection.

I don't put much stock in Ball's passion by his 12 game stint to do whatever he wanted in Australia.

This is not only the board talking about this stuff. With one guy having one college season under his belt with varying degrees of individual success for a lousy team... another guy with 3 games... and another guy with 12 games 10,000 miles away... nobody knows much of anything.

Scouts and paid draft gurus know a little bit more... and that's where we're hearing this stuff. Granted, they're still mostly in the dark, too. But there's smoke with all three to varying degrees. It's probably unlikely all three flame out in a blaze of dispassionate play... but I don't think the folks here are generically using passion with these guys.

Scouts and draft gurus whiff just as much as people on this board do when it comes to the draft. I literally can't find anything from Edwards' recruitment that mentions motor issues. I found some stuff with Ball and Wiseman (not a lot here to be honest other than 1 mention of it in 1 draft profile) but nothing with Edwards. He's a guy who started playing basketball seriously in 9th grade, worked his ass off on the court and in the classroom to reclassify early while becoming a top 5 prospect on the court. How does a guy like that have motor issues all of a sudden after one college season? How does Wiseman go from a dominant prospect to now being a risk at number 1 because of motor? How can you make any informed decision on a guy after 3 college games? You can't so you go back to high school where the motor didn't seem to be much of an issue. Why is a Hall of Famer in David Robinson working with a guy like Wiseman if Wiseman has passion or motor issues for basketball?

I think motor and passion do get way over analyzed on here because of Wiggins so any whiff of it by any draft "expert" all of a sudden means red flag time. Ben Simmons had big time motor issues according to experts and they were just flat out wrong. Derrick Williams had no motor flags and got to the NBA and fell into the lifestyle too hard. Kris Dunn on his face looked like a perfect garbage pail, chip on his shoulder guy for Thibs and he ended up being a diva with an ego that didn't match his game. At the end of the day stuff like that is a total crapshoot before you put 10 million in their bank account, attach number 1 pick to their name and see how they react. That's why I really put no stock in it.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I would just say slow the roll on all the lack of passion for the game talk. Ball went to Lithuania and Australia so that he could get on a court to play when he left high school the first time and then skipped college because he was going to be ruled ineligible. Edwards went to a lower level program to play for a coach he believed could make him a better player rather than go to a big program and just be part of their cycle of one and done prospects they pump out. Wiseman had to fight the NCAA just to be able to play 3 games because his coach helped him move years before he became the coach of the program he eventually committed to. If you don't have a passion for the game none of those 3 do any of that. Wiseman would have just sat out the whole year and got ready for the draft. Edwards would have just gone to a big program and been another 1 and done on Calipari or Coach K's belt. Ball would have just stayed home and prepared for the draft rather than go to Australia and he would have just waited for the next high school season rather than go to Lithuania.

This board has been completely traumatized by Wiggins and is turning literally every prospect who isn't perfect like Zion and Ja into another Wiggins. Wiseman dominated in the 3 games he played. Edwards had to carry an entire offense on his shoulders because he had no help. Ball fought through limited minutes in both his international stints and after Aaron Brooks got hurt and he got more playing time in Australia he put up a couple triple doubles. A triple double is a triple double regardless of what league you do it in. You can question shot selection or defensive instincts or something else you want to on the court but let's cool it with the lack of passion for the game because it's just becoming an overused generic line used to downplay prospects when all 3 of these guys have shown a passion for the game in different ways.

To be fair... I don't put much stock in why Edwards claimed he went to Georgia. Maybe it was for a green light. Maybe it was a for a new car under the table. Neither is unheard of by any stretch. Neither is actually going there for the reasons he claimed. Nobody here has any idea what the truth is.

I don't put much stock in Wiseman overcoming some great atrocity when it comes to the shady Hardaway connection.

I don't put much stock in Ball's passion by his 12 game stint to do whatever he wanted in Australia.

This is not only the board talking about this stuff. With one guy having one college season under his belt with varying degrees of individual success for a lousy team... another guy with 3 games... and another guy with 12 games 10,000 miles away... nobody knows much of anything.

Scouts and paid draft gurus know a little bit more... and that's where we're hearing this stuff. Granted, they're still mostly in the dark, too. But there's smoke with all three to varying degrees. It's probably unlikely all three flame out in a blaze of dispassionate play... but I don't think the folks here are generically using passion with these guys.

Scouts and draft gurus whiff just as much as people on this board do when it comes to the draft. I literally can't find anything from Edwards' recruitment that mentions motor issues. I found some stuff with Ball and Wiseman (not a lot here to be honest other than 1 mention of it in 1 draft profile) but nothing with Edwards. He's a guy who started playing basketball seriously in 9th grade, worked his ass off on the court and in the classroom to reclassify early while becoming a top 5 prospect on the court. How does a guy like that have motor issues all of a sudden after one college season? How does Wiseman go from a dominant prospect to now being a risk at number 1 because of motor? How can you make any informed decision on a guy after 3 college games? You can't so you go back to high school where the motor didn't seem to be much of an issue. Why is a Hall of Famer in David Robinson working with a guy like Wiseman if Wiseman has passion or motor issues for basketball?

I think motor and passion do get way over analyzed on here because of Wiggins so any whiff of it by any draft "expert" all of a sudden means red flag time. Ben Simmons had big time motor issues according to experts and they were just flat out wrong. Derrick Williams had no motor flags and got to the NBA and fell into the lifestyle too hard. Kris Dunn on his face looked like a perfect garbage pail, chip on his shoulder guy for Thibs and he ended up being a diva with an ego that didn't match his game. At the end of the day stuff like that is a total crapshoot before you put 10 million in their bank account, attach number 1 pick to their name and see how they react. That's why I really put no stock in it.

Indeed, it's a crapshoot. I don't think anybody here is disputing that. And all you can go by is how hard they play on the court.

From what I've read, there were some possible issues with Edwards and definite issues with Ball. Will the NBA motivate them to be among the hardest workers in the game? I dunno. We'll find out. The annals of NBA history is littered with guys who bucked the passion tag as well as guys who struggled with it as projected.

As for why would David Robinson work with a guy with passion or motor issues... ummm... I have no idea why/how former players choose who they work with. Money? Mutual connections? Kindness? Admiration? Deep belief the prospect is a surefire HOFer? Whatever it is, it's probably unlikely the top criteria for Robinson's decision is a passion for the game, either good or bad.

[Lipoli390]

I would just say slow the roll on all the lack of passion for the game talk. Ball went to Lithuania and Australia so that he could get on a court to play when he left high school the first time and then skipped college because he was going to be ruled ineligible. Edwards went to a lower level program to play for a coach he believed could make him a better player rather than go to a big program and just be part of their cycle of one and done prospects they pump out. Wiseman had to fight the NCAA just to be able to play 3 games because his coach helped him move years before he became the coach of the program he eventually committed to. If you don't have a passion for the game none of those 3 do any of that. Wiseman would have just sat out the whole year and got ready for the draft. Edwards would have just gone to a big program and been another 1 and done on Calipari or Coach K's belt. Ball would have just stayed home and prepared for the draft rather than go to Australia and he would have just waited for the next high school season rather than go to Lithuania.

This board has been completely traumatized by Wiggins and is turning literally every prospect who isn't perfect like Zion and Ja into another Wiggins. Wiseman dominated in the 3 games he played. Edwards had to carry an entire offense on his shoulders because he had no help. Ball fought through limited minutes in both his international stints and after Aaron Brooks got hurt and he got more playing time in Australia he put up a couple triple doubles. A triple double is a triple double regardless of what league you do it in. You can question shot selection or defensive instincts or something else you want to on the court but let's cool it with the lack of passion for the game because it's just becoming an overused generic line used to downplay prospects when all 3 of these guys have shown a passion for the game in different ways.

To be fair... I don't put much stock in why Edwards claimed he went to Georgia. Maybe it was for a green light. Maybe it was a for a new car under the table. Neither is unheard of by any stretch. Neither is actually going there for the reasons he claimed. Nobody here has any idea what the truth is.

I don't put much stock in Wiseman overcoming some great atrocity when it comes to the shady Hardaway connection.

I don't put much stock in Ball's passion by his 12 game stint to do whatever he wanted in Australia.

This is not only the board talking about this stuff. With one guy having one college season under his belt with varying degrees of individual success for a lousy team... another guy with 3 games... and another guy with 12 games 10,000 miles away... nobody knows much of anything.

Scouts and paid draft gurus know a little bit more... and that's where we're hearing this stuff. Granted, they're still mostly in the dark, too. But there's smoke with all three to varying degrees. It's probably unlikely all three flame out in a blaze of dispassionate play... but I don't think the folks here are generically using passion with these guys.

Scouts and draft gurus whiff just as much as people on this board do when it comes to the draft. I literally can't find anything from Edwards' recruitment that mentions motor issues. I found some stuff with Ball and Wiseman (not a lot here to be honest other than 1 mention of it in 1 draft profile) but nothing with Edwards. He's a guy who started playing basketball seriously in 9th grade, worked his ass off on the court and in the classroom to reclassify early while becoming a top 5 prospect on the court. How does a guy like that have motor issues all of a sudden after one college season? How does Wiseman go from a dominant prospect to now being a risk at number 1 because of motor? How can you make any informed decision on a guy after 3 college games? You can't so you go back to high school where the motor didn't seem to be much of an issue. Why is a Hall of Famer in David Robinson working with a guy like Wiseman if Wiseman has passion or motor issues for basketball?

I think motor and passion do get way over analyzed on here because of Wiggins so any whiff of it by any draft "expert" all of a sudden means red flag time. Ben Simmons had big time motor issues according to experts and they were just flat out wrong. Derrick Williams had no motor flags and got to the NBA and fell into the lifestyle too hard. Kris Dunn on his face looked like a perfect garbage pail, chip on his shoulder guy for Thibs and he ended up being a diva with an ego that didn't match his game. At the end of the day stuff like that is a total crapshoot before you put 10 million in their bank account, attach number 1 pick to their name and see how they react. That's why I really put no stock in it.

Here's an excerpt from one draft review of Edwards on sircharlesincharge.com. It was part of a fairly long and very thorough review of Edwards that included a lot of positives as well as video footage that the author analyzed. This particular excerpt was based on a number of video examples that the article discusses in detail. Here it is:

"All these plays make me question his motor/competitiveness. Effort is something that shouldn't be this volatile. You either have or don't have that innate passion inside of you. If Edwards' fire doesn't run hot, as it seems on film, then it's hard to imagine his overall impact on winning transcending the box-score stats."

I'll add that I've seen other similar reviews questioning Edwards' effort on the defensive end as well as observations that he gets passive and sometimes disappears on the offensive end. I love Edwards' potential and there's a lot to like. He's physically gifted and is very young. But there are definitely some red or at least yellow flags related to his effort or motor that have to be taken into consideration -- things that were never associated with Doncic, Zion, Ja Morant, Oladipo, Donovan Mitchell, etc. As for Simmons, I recall the comments questioning his motor. But he had do-shit stats in college that contradicted questions about his motor. Again, I don't think these motor issues should be decisive. But they need to be considered.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

In the Mike Schmitz breakdown of Edwards, he kept comparing him offensively to Harden, Oladipo, and Mitchell as potential ceilings. Then he got to defense, which was generally a shit show. Basically he is one of these selective defenders that occasionally gets down in a stance and engages, but mostly he half-asses it on that end. That was definitely not the case with Dipo or Mitchell in college.

Poor shot selection and poor defensive effort....I just don't see many college guys suddenly improve in these areas. Edwards is a scorer, and an inefficient one at that - he loves his contested pull up jumpers. May be he eventually turns into a deadly NBA scorer and playmaker like those other guys, but he has a long ways to go and even then may still be a big liability on the other end. Dion Waiters was the floor Schmitz cited for Edwards. Basically a gunner not too interested in doing much else.

No. Thank. You.

[Lipoli390]

Getting back to the subject of this thread - namely James Wiseman. I recommend watching the video of Mike Schmitz and Wiseman reviewing film footage of Wiseman. It's a great video. I felt better about Wiseman after watching this video. One of the things I liked was that he said he watches video of the old-school centers like Jabbar and Duncan. I like that he has an appreciation for the game and it's iconic centers. You can tell that Wiseman is really intelligent. It's just one more bit of information or insight, but I liked what I saw.

[Porckchop]

All the concerns that folks have about Wiseman are the same concerns about okongwu
This from Espn..
Improvement areas
- Has some struggles with more traditional centers given his size at 6-9. Not the most physical post defender. Generally plays hard but had some no-show energy games.
- Strictly a 5 on offense at this stage. Took only 10 3s in 42 high school games, according to Krossover's database. Went 1-for-4 from 3 at USC. Decent mechanics from the free throw line but doesn't extend beyond that quite yet. Capable passer but not advanced. Not the most comfortable ball handler.
- Does he have the offensive upside to be more than a role player? If not, is he special enough defensively at 6-9 to warrant serious consideration in the top 10?