The DLO Trade

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

I actually saw this article on The Athletic this morning and knew that it would make its way over to the forum. I disagree wholeheartedly with Anthony Slater in his article. I think it's also important to note that Slater is a senior writer for The Athletic covering the Golden State Warriors and his viewpoints are definitely going to be focused on that franchise's agenda more so than someone who covers neither team involved.

I've been debating internally over whether or not I should even chime in considering the large majority here claims to hate the trade that brought D'Angelo Russell to Minnesota or dislike the player/person himself, or both. Obviously, I championed for Andrew Wiggins to be traded out of Minnesota and Russell is and was a player I liked for the Wolves in return.

What Slater's article fails to focus on and what the board seemingly forgets to acknowledge from time to time is that Wiggins' trade value at the time he was dealt was overwhelmingly negative and the situation Minnesota was in with Karl-Anthony Towns was very much uncomfortable.

Wiggins had been a chronic underachiever through five-and-a-half seasons with the Wolves displaying stretches of greatness and even more of invisibility. Minnesota could simply not depend on him on a nightly basis. That is an impossible player to build around as you never knew if you would get an engaged slasher who could get his shot off at any moment and defend his man or if you'd get an uninterested, mentally-weak, offensively-challenged athlete who was prone to hide in the corner for the majority of games. You just never knew with him and he's a huge reason why this franchise went 174-286 (.378) over his time here. It was proven that the Wolves had not been winning with him here and they were unlikely to deviate from that course with him in a Wolves jersey moving forward.

And if that wasn't enough, he was owed $122-million over the next four years at the time of his trade. That contract rivaled only John Wall's in terms of ugliness. The reports we have to go off of ensure that if Minnesota wanted to move Wiggins that it would take at least one first-round pick in order to make that happen while taking back another atrocious contract or two. I cannot stress this point enough as no team in the league was going to give up anything of positive value for Wiggins. It was never a question of will Minnesota have to give up assets to offload Wiggins but rather how much will Minnesota have to give up to offload Wiggins. That's the hand this front office was dealt.

With all of that said, the Wolves ended up trading only one first-round pick to discard Wiggins and the incoming salary was Russell's. Keep in mind that Russell, despite his weaknesses, is absolutely a productive player in this league and filled a need on this roster in terms of a ball-handler, shot-creator, and three-point shooter. Alternatively, the Wolves could have been left with a Nicolas Batum-sized problem had they pursued a trade with Charlotte, for example. He would have brought nothing of value to this team besides having a shorter contract on the books, and that's significant because this team needs to show progress in the form of wins in order to appease and retain their best player Towns.

That segues into my other point. Minnesota had to make an effort in finding a suitable Robin to Towns' Batman. The clock has been ticking down ever since he signed his extension. They had tried and failed with Wiggins. They had tried and succeeded and then failed with Jimmy Butler. They had tried and failed with Robert Covington. They could not sit on their hands and do nothing. They could not try to wait it out and allow Wiggins' contract to expire. By that time, Minnesota would have racked up more losing seasons and Towns would have requested a trade. And because of Wiggins' contract it meant that he had to be included with the outgoing parts.

Simply put, Minnesota was ALWAYS going to "lose" in a Wiggins trade. That much was already known, but what was left up in the air was the "how badly" part. His incomplete skill set and bloated contract deemed him to be one of the most difficult players to trade in the entire league. His negative trade value guaranteed that Minnesota would be coughing up draft capital to deal him. That's the aspect in which the Wolves were always going to lose.

Minnesota "won" by offloading Wiggins for less than multiple first-round picks while still netting a productive NBA player in return. The alternative trades were sure to be far worse and more crippling to this franchise in the short-term and long-term. And while Wiggins has been producing for Golden State thus far, Minnesota's ceiling is still higher now than it was prior to said trade. The Wolves accomplished what they needed to accomplish there. Where they have failed tremendously are the moves that followed this deal heading into this season. They will certainly pay for those subsequent moves when the Warriors are picking higher in the draft via Minnesota's pick than they should have been.

[KG4Ever]

Kek I usually don't read posts that are this long, but for some reason I took the time to read yours. In hindsight signing Wiggins to the max was a bad move, though I still think it was damned if you do, damned if you don't. But I don't think you can pin our failures on just one or a few gaffes. There are literally dozens of reasons why we have been so inept for so long. I'm not going to list them here but they have all been discussed in this space.

You're right in that I did advocate for blowing it up last year, and I'm still as you know on that train. I believe Q was also supporting trading KAT last year. And as I wrote last night, the absence of hope is what bothers me the most. I see some posters are still bargaining with themselves that this KAT-DLO era can be successful. I know that it can't. I knew it at the time of the trade last year, and I especially know it now seeing that Edwards isn't a savior.

Just give me something to hope for. I don't want to wait another couple years to have a glimmer of optimism about the franchise. I can't remember the outlook ever being as poor as it is right now. Change is needed, as embarrassing as that may sound.

I was not as big of a Wiggins guy as you but I was in his camp a foot in his camp. Obviously more issues then just Wiggins has happened since Kat came into the league just think Wiggins contract was a killer. He didn't improve, you can make an argument he regressed and his contract became a toxic contract. I do think its neck and neck between his contract and our drafts of the #1 reason why the Wolves are in the spot they are today.

That is why I don't go after you on the Dlo takes because you said lets just blow the whole thing up. What I think was an option. Like I said I think adding Dlo gave a small % of making it work with Kat. I think not trading Wiggins there was a 0%. It sucks where the wolves are at. I respect the opinion of blowing it up last year even though I disagree with some of it.

The DLO trade is a crippler in terms of lost draft capital, burdensome contract and his selfishness affecting team chemistry. And the Warriors know how to use Wiggins in a much more effective way than the Wolves did and from all reports prefer Wiggins over DLO.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Good to hear from you Cam. I don't know if many of us are clamoring for Wiggins back. Everything you say about him is true. I was relieved when we traded him....totally for it.

I guess what I'm saying is that a) I agree with trading Wiggins, and b) In hindsight, I'm not happy with what we got back.

If I had to do it all over again, I would have still traded Wiggins, but for expiring contracts instead of DLO.

IDK...may be that wasn't possible.

[Coolbreeze44]

Kek I usually don't read posts that are this long, but for some reason I took the time to read yours. In hindsight signing Wiggins to the max was a bad move, though I still think it was damned if you do, damned if you don't. But I don't think you can pin our failures on just one or a few gaffes. There are literally dozens of reasons why we have been so inept for so long. I'm not going to list them here but they have all been discussed in this space.

You're right in that I did advocate for blowing it up last year, and I'm still as you know on that train. I believe Q was also supporting trading KAT last year. And as I wrote last night, the absence of hope is what bothers me the most. I see some posters are still bargaining with themselves that this KAT-DLO era can be successful. I know that it can't. I knew it at the time of the trade last year, and I especially know it now seeing that Edwards isn't a savior.

Just give me something to hope for. I don't want to wait another couple years to have a glimmer of optimism about the franchise. I can't remember the outlook ever being as poor as it is right now. Change is needed, as embarrassing as that may sound.

I was not as big of a Wiggins guy as you but I was in his camp a foot in his camp. Obviously more issues then just Wiggins has happened since Kat came into the league just think Wiggins contract was a killer. He didn't improve, you can make an argument he regressed and his contract became a toxic contract. I do think its neck and neck between his contract and our drafts of the #1 reason why the Wolves are in the spot they are today.

That is why I don't go after you on the Dlo takes because you said lets just blow the whole thing up. What I think was an option. Like I said I think adding Dlo gave a small % of making it work with Kat. I think not trading Wiggins there was a 0%. It sucks where the wolves are at. I respect the opinion of blowing it up last year even though I disagree with some of it.

I'm a little bit different in that I can easily separate the player from the contract. I can do that because I'm not the GM, nor am I the owner having to pay. I liked Wiggins because he was a good kid and for at least a while gave us some hope. He didn't become a star but I still think he was a good player. His contract really didn't bother me. It's the same for DLO. To me, the contract has little to do with my opinion of him. Whether we're paying him $5 or $30 million, he's still DLO and he isn't good enough to give us what he was brought here to do. The deal set this franchise back regardless of what you thought of Wiggins.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I was the guy behind the Batum trade. And it wasn't because I wanted Batum in Minnesota.

I just think it speaks volumes to where Wiggins' contract value was at the time. It was not good. At all. I figured the Hornets might bite because some questionably run, middling organizations might be willing to take a flyer on a guy needing a change of scenery. They did... only they went with the injury risk instead... Gordon Hayward. They outsmarted me.

As for Batum and the Wolves... he wasn't going to help in a lost season anyway. So the Wolves could have continued their "soft tank" last year. Avoided huge pushback from the fans by unloading Wiggins. And then worked to unload Batum's large expiring deal this season.

It's 100% hindsight...

But I do like the idea of Towns, the 2020 #1 pick and the team's 2021 #1 pick over what we're looking at now. Heck, I'd probably even be more excited about Edwards in that scenario. I get him as a Promise of Hope #2... I don't get him as a #3 on a team where the #2 and #3 players' are taking 35 shots away from Towns every night on a team built entirely for offense.

I think in theory, I would rather have Kat, 2020 #1 and 2021 #1 (still is possible, with Dlo on roster also, haha). I just Kat forces his way out, its so easy to do nowadays. Kat was complaining so much to refs before the trade. Kat was doing his little selfish things, Kat effort was going away. I just think if we traded Wiggins for Batum (I know he is just a contract placeholder), Kat pretty much quits.

Obviously I could be wrong but I think that is were it was going. I think trading for Dlo might of saved the Wolves a season or 2 to try and build around Kat. I don't think the wolves could of done that bringing back a player like Batum.

Sure. There's truth there. At the time of the trade... the Wolves already had a 10+ game losing streak WITH Towns. That doesn't happen if a star player isn't checked out in some way.

Just for fun hindsight...

Batum is currently #3 in mpg for the league's top team. His VORP is (0.5). The Wolves leader (non Towns) is 0.2. His Win Shares are (1.9). The Wolves leader is Naz Reid (0.9).

Batum has 50/45/87 splits and a 4:1 A/TO ratio.

Obviously, he has flaws. Obviously, he's the type of guy who's better when asked NOT to do too much. But he is a guy who knows HOW to play NBA basketball. And for this slightly disingenuous argument of mine right now... his stats are relevant, dammit!

[kekgeek]

I actually saw this article on The Athletic this morning and knew that it would make its way over to the forum. I disagree wholeheartedly with Anthony Slater in his article. I think it's also important to note that Slater is a senior writer for The Athletic covering the Golden State Warriors and his viewpoints are definitely going to be focused on that franchise's agenda more so than someone who covers neither team involved.

I've been debating internally over whether or not I should even chime in considering the large majority here claims to hate the trade that brought D'Angelo Russell to Minnesota or dislike the player/person himself, or both. Obviously, I championed for Andrew Wiggins to be traded out of Minnesota and Russell is and was a player I liked for the Wolves in return.

What Slater's article fails to focus on and what the board seemingly forgets to acknowledge from time to time is that Wiggins' trade value at the time he was dealt was overwhelmingly negative and the situation Minnesota was in with Karl-Anthony Towns was very much uncomfortable.

Wiggins had been a chronic underachiever through five-and-a-half seasons with the Wolves displaying stretches of greatness and even more of invisibility. Minnesota could simply not depend on him on a nightly basis. That is an impossible player to build around as you never knew if you would get an engaged slasher who could get his shot off at any moment and defend his man or if you'd get an uninterested, mentally-weak, offensively-challenged athlete who was prone to hide in the corner for the majority of games. You just never knew with him and he's a huge reason why this franchise went 174-286 (.378) over his time here. It was proven that the Wolves had not been winning with him here and they were unlikely to deviate from that course with him in a Wolves jersey moving forward.

And if that wasn't enough, he was owed $122-million over the next four years at the time of his trade. That contract rivaled only John Wall's in terms of ugliness. The reports we have to go off of ensure that if Minnesota wanted to move Wiggins that it would take at least one first-round pick in order to make that happen while taking back another atrocious contract or two. I cannot stress this point enough as no team in the league was going to give up anything of positive value for Wiggins. It was never a question of will Minnesota have to give up assets to offload Wiggins but rather how much will Minnesota have to give up to offload Wiggins. That's the hand this front office was dealt.

With all of that said, the Wolves ended up trading only one first-round pick to discard Wiggins and the incoming salary was Russell's. Keep in mind that Russell, despite his weaknesses, is absolutely a productive player in this league and filled a need on this roster in terms of a ball-handler, shot-creator, and three-point shooter. Alternatively, the Wolves could have been left with a Nicolas Batum-sized problem had they pursued a trade with Charlotte, for example. He would have brought nothing of value to this team besides having a shorter contract on the books, and that's significant because this team needs to show progress in the form of wins in order to appease and retain their best player Towns.

That segues into my other point. Minnesota had to make an effort in finding a suitable Robin to Towns' Batman. The clock has been ticking down ever since he signed his extension. They had tried and failed with Wiggins. They had tried and succeeded and then failed with Jimmy Butler. They had tried and failed with Robert Covington. They could not sit on their hands and do nothing. They could not try to wait it out and allow Wiggins' contract to expire. By that time, Minnesota would have racked up more losing seasons and Towns would have requested a trade. And because of Wiggins' contract it meant that he had to be included with the outgoing parts.

Simply put, Minnesota was ALWAYS going to "lose" in a Wiggins trade. That much was already known, but what was left up in the air was the "how badly" part. His incomplete skill set and bloated contract deemed him to be one of the most difficult players to trade in the entire league. His negative trade value guaranteed that Minnesota would be coughing up draft capital to deal him. That's the aspect in which the Wolves were always going to lose.

Minnesota "won" by offloading Wiggins for less than multiple first-round picks while still netting a productive NBA player in return. The alternative trades were sure to be far worse and more crippling to this franchise in the short-term and long-term. And while Wiggins has been producing for Golden State thus far, Minnesota's ceiling is still higher now than it was prior to said trade. The Wolves accomplished what they needed to accomplish there. Where they have failed tremendously are the moves that followed this deal heading into this season. They will certainly pay for those subsequent moves when the Warriors are picking higher in the draft via Minnesota's pick than they should have been.

We think about it the same way. Now you are higher on Dlo then I am but sitting on our hands doing nothing was going to a 0% (I guess I can do 1% because there is a super small chance the guy we could draft a guy outside of the top 3 this year with our pick that becomes a Luka type player) success rate. Now the odds of Dlo succeeding with Kat were probably closer to 25%. I think the only options was trade for Dlo or blow it all up. Now I believed in Kat so I was willing to take that chance on Dlo even though it might not work.

[thedoper]

I actually saw this article on The Athletic this morning and knew that it would make its way over to the forum. I disagree wholeheartedly with Anthony Slater in his article. I think it's also important to note that Slater is a senior writer for The Athletic covering the Golden State Warriors and his viewpoints are definitely going to be focused on that franchise's agenda more so than someone who covers neither team involved.

I've been debating internally over whether or not I should even chime in considering the large majority here claims to hate the trade that brought D'Angelo Russell to Minnesota or dislike the player/person himself, or both. Obviously, I championed for Andrew Wiggins to be traded out of Minnesota and Russell is and was a player I liked for the Wolves in return.

What Slater's article fails to focus on and what the board seemingly forgets to acknowledge from time to time is that Wiggins' trade value at the time he was dealt was overwhelmingly negative and the situation Minnesota was in with Karl-Anthony Towns was very much uncomfortable.

Wiggins had been a chronic underachiever through five-and-a-half seasons with the Wolves displaying stretches of greatness and even more of invisibility. Minnesota could simply not depend on him on a nightly basis. That is an impossible player to build around as you never knew if you would get an engaged slasher who could get his shot off at any moment and defend his man or if you'd get an uninterested, mentally-weak, offensively-challenged athlete who was prone to hide in the corner for the majority of games. You just never knew with him and he's a huge reason why this franchise went 174-286 (.378) over his time here. It was proven that the Wolves had not been winning with him here and they were unlikely to deviate from that course with him in a Wolves jersey moving forward.

And if that wasn't enough, he was owed $122-million over the next four years at the time of his trade. That contract rivaled only John Wall's in terms of ugliness. The reports we have to go off of ensure that if Minnesota wanted to move Wiggins that it would take at least one first-round pick in order to make that happen while taking back another atrocious contract or two. I cannot stress this point enough as no team in the league was going to give up anything of positive value for Wiggins. It was never a question of will Minnesota have to give up assets to offload Wiggins but rather how much will Minnesota have to give up to offload Wiggins. That's the hand this front office was dealt.

With all of that said, the Wolves ended up trading only one first-round pick to discard Wiggins and the incoming salary was Russell's. Keep in mind that Russell, despite his weaknesses, is absolutely a productive player in this league and filled a need on this roster in terms of a ball-handler, shot-creator, and three-point shooter. Alternatively, the Wolves could have been left with a Nicolas Batum-sized problem had they pursued a trade with Charlotte, for example. He would have brought nothing of value to this team besides having a shorter contract on the books, and that's significant because this team needs to show progress in the form of wins in order to appease and retain their best player Towns.

That segues into my other point. Minnesota had to make an effort in finding a suitable Robin to Towns' Batman. The clock has been ticking down ever since he signed his extension. They had tried and failed with Wiggins. They had tried and succeeded and then failed with Jimmy Butler. They had tried and failed with Robert Covington. They could not sit on their hands and do nothing. They could not try to wait it out and allow Wiggins' contract to expire. By that time, Minnesota would have racked up more losing seasons and Towns would have requested a trade. And because of Wiggins' contract it meant that he had to be included with the outgoing parts.

Simply put, Minnesota was ALWAYS going to "lose" in a Wiggins trade. That much was already known, but what was left up in the air was the "how badly" part. His incomplete skill set and bloated contract deemed him to be one of the most difficult players to trade in the entire league. His negative trade value guaranteed that Minnesota would be coughing up draft capital to deal him. That's the aspect in which the Wolves were always going to lose.

Minnesota "won" by offloading Wiggins for less than multiple first-round picks while still netting a productive NBA player in return. The alternative trades were sure to be far worse and more crippling to this franchise in the short-term and long-term. And while Wiggins has been producing for Golden State thus far, Minnesota's ceiling is still higher now than it was prior to said trade. The Wolves accomplished what they needed to accomplish there. Where they have failed tremendously are the moves that followed this deal heading into this season. They will certainly pay for those subsequent moves when the Warriors are picking higher in the draft via Minnesota's pick than they should have been.

I think this is it for me too. The moves after made me furious. Not the Wiggins deal. You can't say KAT/DLO is your tandem and put such pathetic players around them if you want to win. It's insulting.

[Lipoli390]

You nailed it, Doper. As fans, we are prone to emotional swings that can cloud our judgment. That's particularly true for us Wolves fans who you correctly described as traumatized.

As you suggested, it's important that our team's top basketball executive resist similar emotional impulses when making personnel decisions. A team's top executive can't allow himself to be too enamored of a draft prospect's athleticism, inviting smile or solicitous comments (Edwards). He has to resist getting overly attached to a particular player, whether it's Gersson's attachment to DLO or David Kahn's attachment to Darko. He can't be overly swayed by his current star's personal affinity for or friendship with another player (e.g., DLO, Troy Hudson). The head executive has to apply sober analytical judgment based on all the negative factors as well as positive ones. And of course, he has to have good intuitive judgment.

[Lipoli390]

Good to hear from you Cam. I don't know if many of us are clamoring for Wiggins back. Everything you say about him is true. I was relieved when we traded him....totally for it.

I guess what I'm saying is that a) I agree with trading Wiggins, and b) In hindsight, I'm not happy with what we got back.

If I had to do it all over again, I would have still traded Wiggins, but for expiring contracts instead of DLO.

IDK...may be that wasn't possible.

That's my view too, Q. It's never been a matter of Wiggins v DLO. It's what we gave up and how DLO fits here. Like you, I would have traded Wiggins. But I wouldn't have given away a largely unprotected first round pick to make that happen. It was Gersson's obsession with DLO that ultimately led to what I'd consider a significant overpay for what I'd consider to be the wrong player for this team.

[KG4Ever]

We are a one star team, who desperately need to surround KAT with two way talent to have any hope of contending. I'd bank on the draft pick we gave up in the DLO chance first, then Edwards (who I'm not very high on) and Culver ahead of DLO in terms of future value. I'm sorry to be this grim, but when the DLO trade went down, my thoughts were this franchise is royally f*cked. Thibs and Rosas have been utter disasters and I'm left wondering about lots of what ifs such as if Flip survived or we had competent front office personnel after Flip died.