Minnesota Sports Forum

We have talent, but there's something missing that prevents everything from coming together.

Weve seen games where kat or wiggs just dominate a game (impose will, not just hot shooting). We've also seen games where the team dominates from start to finish. But we've also seen games where it looked like they've never played together before.

TheSP wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:
SP-I have a different take than you about the relative post-game behavior. Did KAT and Wig slink off because they were intimidated, or did they just not want to be on the court with a dildo like Butler? I tend to think it might be more the latter, and I'm not sure I blame him. I actually have a bigger problem with Tolliver, Deng and Dieng interacting pleasantly with Butler post-game. I want them to feel the anger that I'm feeling, and it's clear that they just don't. More evidence that fans often care more than the players do...sad.

If the bolded is the case how did they show zero desire, zero grit, zero anger during the game? If they think the guy is a dick, and he is, and surely they feel that way, how does a man roll over like that? I bet they'd have loved to go out and rub a victory in Butler's face had they won, but they got whooped, turned tail and ran.

If you cannot get up for a revenge game like last night how in the hell can they be counted on to get up for a huge playoff game?

I completely agree with you about how shameful their on-court behavior was. But what did we want them to do post-game...deck Jimmy with a right hook, fraternize with him like the smiling 3 did, or ignore him by slinking off to the locker room? I guess I want the first, but understand the third option is probably the wisest. I definitely don't want the second option.

Monster says I want players to react like I would, and he's right...I want them to be as pissed after a disaster like Tuesday as I was, not smiling and joking around with the guy who just showed them how much better he was than them. But I learned long ago that we fans are saps, and generally care more about the outcome of a game than the players do. I first learned this when I had the opportunity to fly back from St. Louis on the Twins plane after they had lost 3 in a row in St. Louis in the 1991 World Series. My son and I were feeling down after the loss, and were astonished when we saw the players laughing and joking and having fun. That's when I first realized that sports are a job for them, and a huge paycheck, where it's more life and death for us rubes. They are a fraternity of overpaid guys playing a game, and they generally love the opposing players that we hate (with occasional exceptions, of course). And you know...they're right, and we're wrong. It pisses me off that Tolliver, Deng and Dieng are showing their love for Butler when I'm feeling so much hatred for them, but I recognize that they are acting appropriately and it's we fans who don't get it. What do you expect when you pay young adults millions for playing a game...what is going to be most important to them? I understand that, but it doesn't change me...I'm still going to care a lot more about wins and losses than the players. Can't help it...I'm a rube.

It's only one game. But sometimes... one game can be pretty telling.

This wasn't an ordinary game. What happened at the beginning of the season was extraordinary. The veteran star player went national and there was no nuance needed... he called out Wiggins and KAT for being soft and/or losers. That happened. And NOBODY from the Wolves challenged that take. In fact, the coach/POBO's actions at the time only seemed to support it.

The player was eventually traded. The coach was eventually fired.

I'm ok with Wiggins and KAT staying professional while being insulted. But when they pack it in during the game too... the optics are that Butler was 100% right.

Nobody. Not other players. Not management. Not coaches. Not Wiggins. Not KAT... Nobody has come out and said that they're not soft or that they're not losers.

And that includes the "statement" the Wolves made on Tuesday in Philly.

One game? Sure. But a very meaningful game about the amount of "fight" these guys have? Sure.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:It's only one game. But sometimes... one game can be pretty telling.

This wasn't an ordinary game. What happened at the beginning of the season was extraordinary. The veteran star player went national and there was no nuance needed... he called out Wiggins and KAT for being soft and/or losers. That happened. And NOBODY from the Wolves challenged that take. In fact, the coach/POBO's actions at the time only seemed to support it.

The player was eventually traded. The coach was eventually fired.

I'm ok with Wiggins and KAT staying professional while being insulted. But when they pack it in during the game too... the optics are that Butler was 100% right.

Nobody. Not other players. Not management. Not coaches. Not Wiggins. Not KAT... Nobody has come out and said that they're not soft or that they're not losers.

And that includes the "statement" the Wolves made on Tuesday in Philly.

One game? Sure. But a very meaningful game about the amount of "fight" these guys have? Sure.

Well said. Unfortunately.

longstrangetrip wrote:

TheSP wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:
SP-I have a different take than you about the relative post-game behavior. Did KAT and Wig slink off because they were intimidated, or did they just not want to be on the court with a dildo like Butler? I tend to think it might be more the latter, and I'm not sure I blame him. I actually have a bigger problem with Tolliver, Deng and Dieng interacting pleasantly with Butler post-game. I want them to feel the anger that I'm feeling, and it's clear that they just don't. More evidence that fans often care more than the players do...sad.

If the bolded is the case how did they show zero desire, zero grit, zero anger during the game? If they think the guy is a dick, and he is, and surely they feel that way, how does a man roll over like that? I bet they'd have loved to go out and rub a victory in Butler's face had they won, but they got whooped, turned tail and ran.

If you cannot get up for a revenge game like last night how in the hell can they be counted on to get up for a huge playoff game?

I completely agree with you about how shameful their on-court behavior was. But what did we want them to do post-game...deck Jimmy with a right hook, fraternize with him like the smiling 3 did, or ignore him by slinking off to the locker room? I guess I want the first, but understand the third option is probably the wisest. I definitely don't want the second option.

Monster says I want players to react like I would, and he's right...I want them to be as pissed after a disaster like Tuesday as I was, not smiling and joking around with the guy who just showed them how much better he was than them. But I learned long ago that we fans are saps, and generally care more about the outcome of a game than the players do. I first learned this when I had the opportunity to fly back from St. Louis on the Twins plane after they had lost 3 in a row in St. Louis in the 1991 World Series. My son and I were feeling down after the loss, and were astonished when we saw the players laughing and joking and having fun. That's when I first realized that sports are a job for them, and a huge paycheck, where it's more life and death for us rubes. They are a fraternity of overpaid guys playing a game, and they generally love the opposing players that we hate (with occasional exceptions, of course). And you know...they're right, and we're wrong. It pisses me off that Tolliver, Deng and Dieng are showing their love for Butler when I'm feeling so much hatred for them, but I recognize that they are acting appropriately and it's we fans who don't get it. What do you expect when you pay young adults millions for playing a game...what is going to be most important to them? I understand that, but it doesn't change me...I'm still going to care a lot more about wins and losses than the players. Can't help it...I'm a rube.

Thanks for laying out you position LST. Yeah you are rube. :) You are calling a guy like a Tolliver out. Undrafted playing for 10 teams in an NBA career where he seems to have gotten better past the age of 30. I'm sure he doesn't care about wins and losses. Right. Sure it's a job and do you take your job so seriously that you can't joke after a bad day? Do you think that if someone followed you around with a video camera they would find you joking about something or in a situation they would find ditasreful if they didn't know the context? I can guarantee that it would happen at my job and I think the people I work with pretty good folks. Have you ever had a laugh with someone from a rival company? It's also weird to call out a Twins team that ended up winning the Wolrld series. Mike Redmond is often considered one of the good vets on the Twins years ago. It seemed he was able to be loose (naked batting practice which not sure you could do that now) but he seemed plenty engaged as a player and ended up being a major league manager. Just some stuff to consider. It's fun to go back and forth.

monsterpile wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

TheSP wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:
SP-I have a different take than you about the relative post-game behavior. Did KAT and Wig slink off because they were intimidated, or did they just not want to be on the court with a dildo like Butler? I tend to think it might be more the latter, and I'm not sure I blame him. I actually have a bigger problem with Tolliver, Deng and Dieng interacting pleasantly with Butler post-game. I want them to feel the anger that I'm feeling, and it's clear that they just don't. More evidence that fans often care more than the players do...sad.

If the bolded is the case how did they show zero desire, zero grit, zero anger during the game? If they think the guy is a dick, and he is, and surely they feel that way, how does a man roll over like that? I bet they'd have loved to go out and rub a victory in Butler's face had they won, but they got whooped, turned tail and ran.

If you cannot get up for a revenge game like last night how in the hell can they be counted on to get up for a huge playoff game?

I completely agree with you about how shameful their on-court behavior was. But what did we want them to do post-game...deck Jimmy with a right hook, fraternize with him like the smiling 3 did, or ignore him by slinking off to the locker room? I guess I want the first, but understand the third option is probably the wisest. I definitely don't want the second option.

Monster says I want players to react like I would, and he's right...I want them to be as pissed after a disaster like Tuesday as I was, not smiling and joking around with the guy who just showed them how much better he was than them. But I learned long ago that we fans are saps, and generally care more about the outcome of a game than the players do. I first learned this when I had the opportunity to fly back from St. Louis on the Twins plane after they had lost 3 in a row in St. Louis in the 1991 World Series. My son and I were feeling down after the loss, and were astonished when we saw the players laughing and joking and having fun. That's when I first realized that sports are a job for them, and a huge paycheck, where it's more life and death for us rubes. They are a fraternity of overpaid guys playing a game, and they generally love the opposing players that we hate (with occasional exceptions, of course). And you know...they're right, and we're wrong. It pisses me off that Tolliver, Deng and Dieng are showing their love for Butler when I'm feeling so much hatred for them, but I recognize that they are acting appropriately and it's we fans who don't get it. What do you expect when you pay young adults millions for playing a game...what is going to be most important to them? I understand that, but it doesn't change me...I'm still going to care a lot more about wins and losses than the players. Can't help it...I'm a rube.

Thanks for laying out you position LST. Yeah you are rube. :) You are calling a guy like a Tolliver out. Undrafted playing for 10 teams in an NBA career where he seems to have gotten better past the age of 30. I'm sure he doesn't care about wins and losses. Right. Sure it's a job and do you take your job so seriously that you can't joke after a bad day? Do you think that if someone followed you around with a video camera they would find you joking about something or in a situation they would find ditasreful if they didn't know the context? I can guarantee that it would happen at my job and I think the people I work with pretty good folks. Have you ever had a laugh with someone from a rival company? It's also weird to call out a Twins team that ended up winning the Wolrld series. Mike Redmond is often considered one of the good vets on the Twins years ago. It seemed he was able to be loose (naked batting practice which not sure you could do that now) but he seemed plenty engaged as a player and ended up being a major league manager. Just some stuff to consider. It's fun to go back and forth.

I think we largely agree, monster. I'm not calling out the Twins...I'm saying they're right, and my son and I were wrong. It's absurd that we were so down after a loss when they clearly weren't. (the highlight came at the end of the trip when Steve Lombardozzi came sliding down the chute with the luggage...apparently he jumped on the belt back by the plane and rode with the luggage the whole way!) And maybe their looseness led to a championship. I'm just saying the post-game video is more evidence that pro athletes look at wins and losses much differently than we rubes do. I know I wouldn't have wanted to joke around with Butler after he showed me up, but to the three Wolves I cited, he's part of the fraternity...just another guy being paid millions to play a game. Why should we expect them to get pissed at another member of the club? Again, I get their attitude and would probably act the same way if I were in their position.

It's ultimately our franchise. As soon as KAT leaves the national media will talk about how much heart he has and effort he puts out. As long as he plays for this franchise, he'll get the same treatment. Yeah Thibs needed to go but the same problem is still there, and it isn't KAT and Wiggins' heart. It the fact that this team is not the environment to become a professional. That is probably what Jimmy was always talking about but never able to articulate.

longstrangetrip wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:It's only one game. But sometimes... one game can be pretty telling.

This wasn't an ordinary game. What happened at the beginning of the season was extraordinary. The veteran star player went national and there was no nuance needed... he called out Wiggins and KAT for being soft and/or losers. That happened. And NOBODY from the Wolves challenged that take. In fact, the coach/POBO's actions at the time only seemed to support it.

The player was eventually traded. The coach was eventually fired.

I'm ok with Wiggins and KAT staying professional while being insulted. But when they pack it in during the game too... the optics are that Butler was 100% right.

Nobody. Not other players. Not management. Not coaches. Not Wiggins. Not KAT... Nobody has come out and said that they're not soft or that they're not losers.

And that includes the "statement" the Wolves made on Tuesday in Philly.

One game? Sure. But a very meaningful game about the amount of "fight" these guys have? Sure.

Well said. Unfortunately.

Yeah, I get it too. I think the difference is I got it long before the Philly game.

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

TheSP wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:
SP-I have a different take than you about the relative post-game behavior. Did KAT and Wig slink off because they were intimidated, or did they just not want to be on the court with a dildo like Butler? I tend to think it might be more the latter, and I'm not sure I blame him. I actually have a bigger problem with Tolliver, Deng and Dieng interacting pleasantly with Butler post-game. I want them to feel the anger that I'm feeling, and it's clear that they just don't. More evidence that fans often care more than the players do...sad.

If the bolded is the case how did they show zero desire, zero grit, zero anger during the game? If they think the guy is a dick, and he is, and surely they feel that way, how does a man roll over like that? I bet they'd have loved to go out and rub a victory in Butler's face had they won, but they got whooped, turned tail and ran.

If you cannot get up for a revenge game like last night how in the hell can they be counted on to get up for a huge playoff game?

I completely agree with you about how shameful their on-court behavior was. But what did we want them to do post-game...deck Jimmy with a right hook, fraternize with him like the smiling 3 did, or ignore him by slinking off to the locker room? I guess I want the first, but understand the third option is probably the wisest. I definitely don't want the second option.

Monster says I want players to react like I would, and he's right...I want them to be as pissed after a disaster like Tuesday as I was, not smiling and joking around with the guy who just showed them how much better he was than them. But I learned long ago that we fans are saps, and generally care more about the outcome of a game than the players do. I first learned this when I had the opportunity to fly back from St. Louis on the Twins plane after they had lost 3 in a row in St. Louis in the 1991 World Series. My son and I were feeling down after the loss, and were astonished when we saw the players laughing and joking and having fun. That's when I first realized that sports are a job for them, and a huge paycheck, where it's more life and death for us rubes. They are a fraternity of overpaid guys playing a game, and they generally love the opposing players that we hate (with occasional exceptions, of course). And you know...they're right, and we're wrong. It pisses me off that Tolliver, Deng and Dieng are showing their love for Butler when I'm feeling so much hatred for them, but I recognize that they are acting appropriately and it's we fans who don't get it. What do you expect when you pay young adults millions for playing a game...what is going to be most important to them? I understand that, but it doesn't change me...I'm still going to care a lot more about wins and losses than the players. Can't help it...I'm a rube.

Thanks for laying out you position LST. Yeah you are rube. :) You are calling a guy like a Tolliver out. Undrafted playing for 10 teams in an NBA career where he seems to have gotten better past the age of 30. I'm sure he doesn't care about wins and losses. Right. Sure it's a job and do you take your job so seriously that you can't joke after a bad day? Do you think that if someone followed you around with a video camera they would find you joking about something or in a situation they would find ditasreful if they didn't know the context? I can guarantee that it would happen at my job and I think the people I work with pretty good folks. Have you ever had a laugh with someone from a rival company? It's also weird to call out a Twins team that ended up winning the Wolrld series. Mike Redmond is often considered one of the good vets on the Twins years ago. It seemed he was able to be loose (naked batting practice which not sure you could do that now) but he seemed plenty engaged as a player and ended up being a major league manager. Just some stuff to consider. It's fun to go back and forth.

I think we largely agree, monster. I'm not calling out the Twins...I'm saying they're right, and my son and I were wrong. It's absurd that we were so down after a loss when they clearly weren't. (the highlight came at the end of the trip when Steve Lombardozzi came sliding down the chute with the luggage...apparently he jumped on the belt back by the plane and rode with the luggage the whole way!) And maybe their looseness led to a championship. I'm just saying the post-game video is more evidence that pro athletes look at wins and losses much differently than we rubes do. I know I wouldn't have wanted to joke around with Butler after he showed me up, but to the three Wolves I cited, he's part of the fraternity...just another guy being paid millions to play a game. Why should we expect them to get pissed at another member of the club? Again, I get their attitude and would probably act the same way if I were in their position.

Ok that makes it more clear what you are saying. You are right there is some sort of normalizing that happens in any profession. It's what you have to do or you would go crazy. I have no idea how some people deal with their jobs. Some people would say that about some of the jobs that I have done and I mostly enjoyed the actual work. It's a hot button issue and I'm not getting political but I can't honestly imagine being a law enforcement officer. I've seen more over the last few years some of the things they have to deal with. It's probably one of the last jobs I would ever want to do. It honestly freaks me out thinking about some of the things that comes with that job. Sometimes I think as fans we can forget just how competitive and high pressure situations pro sports are. If you and your team have a bad game on the wrong night you get embarrassed on National TV. At least a it's not a life or death situation possibly coming up every day.

One last point on Tolliver Deng and Dieng...those guys combined to put up 26 points and 10 rebounds on 13 shots in 46 combined minutes. Luol has played the 2 game where his minutes may have been meaningful in over 2 years scoring 11 points in 15 mins. We're those guys ashamed of the games they played? Probably not. Ok maybe Dieng didn't play as good as his stats (had a 1/4 of the teams rebounds...) but whatever. Maybe Wiggins and Towns should be laughing and joking more? :) Interestingly Saric is known for being hilarious AND extremely competitive and serious about winning. Note he had a pretty good game in his return to Philly.

I believe the team needs a Bill Laimbeer like player to light a fire by example under our max contract cupcakes.