Minnesota Sports Forum

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Okay Q and monster, i get that Jim probably wasn't in a position to do reveal much of this during telecasts. But what about all the other media types around the team? Why didn't we hear much of this from Robson, or Zulgad or any of the others covering the team? Certainly Jim Pete wasn't the only guy who was aware of the way Thibs treated people. Why didn't anybody have the guts to do a feature drawing attention to this subject?

He was the POBO. He could literally just say revoke that guy's credentials and his kills their ability to cover the team. You're asking people to risk their jobs/livelihood just to call a guy a jerk publicly. What positive outcome do they gain by roasting Thibs and then losing their access because of it?

I have never heard of a sports writer losing his or her credentials for writing a critical article. And thank God for the first amendment which protects the right to do it.

They are dealing with a private Corporation. The sports teams can let in or ban anyone they want. Being a writer doesn't matter. Did you know that the US GOV is "by law" a Corporation too?

Glen is gonna go back to the country club. It's safe for him.

lipoli390 wrote:I haven't listened yet. But as described by those who HAVE listened, none of it should be surprising. It's the same stuff Thibodeau was doing in Chicago, which was a big part of why I opposed hiring him in the first place. Jon K reported a year ago on Thibodeau alienating everyone in the organization by the way he treated them. The organization has become a vault with no information flowing out to fans and very little info flowing the the media. People in the organization I've know for years have been tight-lipped, appearing unhappy and generally unconfortable if not downright scared about sharing anything. Generally, people in the organization knew very little.

It was obvious that Crawford wanted out of here because of the atmosphere, which was a function of Thibodeau as both PBO and head coach. The fact that Thibodeau was a jerk was in plain view every game as he constantly barked at his players, berated officials and ignored his assistants when they tried to talk with him. Thorpe said players didn't want to come to the Wolves because of Thibodeau. Thorpe didn't just make that up. He was reporting what players were telling him. So who Thibodeau is has never been a mystery. The Wolves never should have hired him and, having hired him, they should have fired him after his first season when he couldn't coach them to a better record than Sam Mitchell did the previous season when the young Wolves' players were even less experienced. And of course, the Butler fiasco should have triggered his immediate dismissal from the team.

Mark my words, Thibodeau will never be a head coach or a PBO again in the NBA. No organizations other than the Timberwolves were knocking on his door after the Bulls fired him. After what Thibodeau did here and with all the reports that will come out over time, it would take a David Kahn caliber PBO or owner to hire Tom Thibodeau as head coach. I think he might eventually be hired as an NBA assistant coach.

I think a lot of people naively hoped (including me) that his one year sabbatical and taking a step back from the grind and visiting other head coaches would have led to some self-reflection and "lessons learned" from his time in Chicago as well as getting an inside look at some other operations. Obviously he didn't change a lick.

Q12543 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:I haven't listened yet. But as described by those who HAVE listened, none of it should be surprising. It's the same stuff Thibodeau was doing in Chicago, which was a big part of why I opposed hiring him in the first place. Jon K reported a year ago on Thibodeau alienating everyone in the organization by the way he treated them. The organization has become a vault with no information flowing out to fans and very little info flowing the the media. People in the organization I've know for years have been tight-lipped, appearing unhappy and generally unconfortable if not downright scared about sharing anything. Generally, people in the organization knew very little.

It was obvious that Crawford wanted out of here because of the atmosphere, which was a function of Thibodeau as both PBO and head coach. The fact that Thibodeau was a jerk was in plain view every game as he constantly barked at his players, berated officials and ignored his assistants when they tried to talk with him. Thorpe said players didn't want to come to the Wolves because of Thibodeau. Thorpe didn't just make that up. He was reporting what players were telling him. So who Thibodeau is has never been a mystery. The Wolves never should have hired him and, having hired him, they should have fired him after his first season when he couldn't coach them to a better record than Sam Mitchell did the previous season when the young Wolves' players were even less experienced. And of course, the Butler fiasco should have triggered his immediate dismissal from the team.

Mark my words, Thibodeau will never be a head coach or a PBO again in the NBA. No organizations other than the Timberwolves were knocking on his door after the Bulls fired him. After what Thibodeau did here and with all the reports that will come out over time, it would take a David Kahn caliber PBO or owner to hire Tom Thibodeau as head coach. I think he might eventually be hired as an NBA assistant coach.

I think a lot of people naively hoped (including me) that his one year sabbatical and taking a step back from the grind and visiting other head coaches would have led to some self-reflection and "lessons learned" from his time in Chicago as well as getting an inside look at some other operations. Obviously he didn't change a lick.

I think Thibs did change some things but not enough especially considering he was THE guy for the whole organization. He used to grind players with long practices. It's been widely reported that was not the case with the Wolves. Players reported he tried to be more human with them. I think he made some changes but again they were not enough.

Thibs is so damn bizarre as what he does often contradicts what he does in an area. For example shutting people out of practice and then basically not giving a crap about whether or not the opposing team knows what play he is doing because he is bellowing out what he wants the team to do. I think this was actually specifically mentioned in an article about advanced scouting. He acts as if fully confident in his plan...but then is too paranoid to share information with various people. On the Dane Moore podcast they said this year they had so many more interactions with Thibs aside from the general media scrum where they would have a pretty good time talking with him about baseball or some other topic even at times Thibs sat down and ate with them from the spread. They said he seems like a guy with find of a goofy funny personality of you actually get to see it. Instead Thins jus didn't open up enough. It's sad for this franchise because it negantively effected what happened here but I also feel for the man Thibs in a way. He clearly hasn't found who to be his best self. Not many people do but obviously he is still faaaaaar from where he likely needs to be.

Also I thought it was and interesting thought that it was suggested by Judd that Jim Peterson would be good for the coaching staff for Ryan if Ryan was hired as the guy.

I wonder if he would consider coaching in the G league. He doesn't have the personality to recruit in college and like some have said no NBA team is going to hire him to lead a team. He doesn't need the money, maybe he tries to rebuild his reputation in the minors.

Ha. Looking forward to it.

Peterson's disdain/frustration for Thibs was seeping more and more into his broadcasts of late.

I said that the thing I was looking forward to the most in the OKC game was Peterson's take on everything. And then he went out and was all professional and stuff. Screw that!

Good to see Peterson is delving more into that stuff on podcasts.

___________

As far as announcers as team employees... a big reason why Peterson is good is that he voices his opinion (even criticism) and backs it up with substance. Far too many announcers are merely bobos for the team who complain about every call and let their abject rubeness overwhelm the broadcast.

For the life of me, I don't know why so many fans seem to enjoy those takes other than another form of group-think mentality that seems to have taken over other elements of our society in recent years.

Q12543 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:I haven't listened yet. But as described by those who HAVE listened, none of it should be surprising. It's the same stuff Thibodeau was doing in Chicago, which was a big part of why I opposed hiring him in the first place. Jon K reported a year ago on Thibodeau alienating everyone in the organization by the way he treated them. The organization has become a vault with no information flowing out to fans and very little info flowing the the media. People in the organization I've know for years have been tight-lipped, appearing unhappy and generally unconfortable if not downright scared about sharing anything. Generally, people in the organization knew very little.

It was obvious that Crawford wanted out of here because of the atmosphere, which was a function of Thibodeau as both PBO and head coach. The fact that Thibodeau was a jerk was in plain view every game as he constantly barked at his players, berated officials and ignored his assistants when they tried to talk with him. Thorpe said players didn't want to come to the Wolves because of Thibodeau. Thorpe didn't just make that up. He was reporting what players were telling him. So who Thibodeau is has never been a mystery. The Wolves never should have hired him and, having hired him, they should have fired him after his first season when he couldn't coach them to a better record than Sam Mitchell did the previous season when the young Wolves' players were even less experienced. And of course, the Butler fiasco should have triggered his immediate dismissal from the team.

Mark my words, Thibodeau will never be a head coach or a PBO again in the NBA. No organizations other than the Timberwolves were knocking on his door after the Bulls fired him. After what Thibodeau did here and with all the reports that will come out over time, it would take a David Kahn caliber PBO or owner to hire Tom Thibodeau as head coach. I think he might eventually be hired as an NBA assistant coach.

I think a lot of people naively hoped (including me) that his one year sabbatical and taking a step back from the grind and visiting other head coaches would have led to some self-reflection and "lessons learned" from his time in Chicago as well as getting an inside look at some other operations. Obviously he didn't change a lick.

I finally listened to the podcast. As I suspected, no surprises. It was quite tame and I thought Jim Pete was actually holding back a bit. I was talking to someone in the Wolves organization right after Thibodeau was hired. I voiced my displeasure and the response from this guy (who knows Thibodeau) was that he thought getting fired by Chicago and having a year to reflect would cause him to change. My response back was that 50-something adults rarely change much and typically don't change their fundamental nature. Even 20-something adults rarely change their fundamental character as we witnesses with Darko when David Kahn naively signed him to a multi-year guaranteed contract. It wasn't completely nuts to think that Thibodeau might at least modernize his offensive and defensive schemes/tactics. But he ultimately did little to update his approach to the game. And I guess that shouldn't be a surprise either since one of Thibodeau's fundamental core characteristics has always been a pathological stubborness and unyielding conviction that he's right while everyone else is wrong. Couple that with his other core tendency to isolate himself and not seek out or absorb criticisms or advice. The end result is what we all witnessed here the past 2.5 years.

There's a lesson here for Glen Taylor and the entire Wolves organization. Based on my many years in the business word, including involvement in hiring and firing decisions, my advice to Glen Taylor and Timberwolves executives going forward is to understand that you can't hire someone on the assumption that their fundamental character will change. You need to understand how someone's fundamental character will impact their ability to grow and adapt over time. Past is prologue when it comes to hiring. When you hire someone, you're not getting your vision of that person; you're getting what that person has always been. Yes, people can and often do improve their skills, knowledge and performance over time. But they don't fundamentally change who they are. Hiring Thibodeau was such a classic, easily foreseeable blunder. Glen Taylor and his executive team simply can't afford to repeat the same mistake.

Very well said, Lip. I've always thought that how one handles people is a much better predictor of success than technical ability. I was obviously opposed to the Thibs hiring from the start for that reason, but being a long-suffering Wolves fan and undying optimist, bought into the story line that he had "changed" during his sabbatical. But that honeymoon period didn't last long as I observed his interactions with his players. Lip, you and I attend the most games here, and thus had an advantage over the others in observing Thibs. From the very first Thibs home game I attended, I was astonished at the lack of connection he had with his players and coaches. It was clear from the start that this hiring was a complete disaster, and although I am generally the only Taylor supporter on this board, I will always blame him for that. I can tell you from first hand knowledge (well, second hand to be completely honest...I've never conversed with Glen) he is a smart guy and, from his front row seat, recognized his hiring mistake very early. I blame him for not firing Thibs at the end of the first season, but in all fairness, that's easy for me to say...it's not my money. I don't know if I could have fired him with $32 million still out there. Instead, I thank Glen for at least making the move now, as painful as it must be financially.


Now we have a guy who is the complete opposite of Thibs in every way from an interpersonal standpoint...is it any surprise the team reacted the way they did in OkC, despite missing so many key players? I'm not saying that there will be no issues going forward now that Thibs is gone and that this team will win all of its remaining games. But I will say that the team is in much better hands, and that Target Center will be a much more joyous place for players and fans than it has been during the Dark Ages. And I predict the players will play better for Ryan than they did for Thibs.

All the constant bitching about Thibodeau's personality and the style in which he conducts himself is over the top, in my opinion. I get that he rubs some people the wrong way. I get that he might not be the easiest to work with or work for. What can not be dismissed is that the Wolves won 47 games last year -- 2.0 GB of the third overall seed -- and made the playoffs in the Western Conference. That's something that hadn't been done in 14 years by a combination of seven different head coaches. So, complain and talk about how "horrendous" Thibodeau was in Minnesota, but he is responsible for getting this franchise headed back in the right direction. Not to mention his 97-107 (47.5 W%) record over two-and-a-half seasons is better than every coach since Flip Saunders and the glory days of MVP Kevin Garnett. He's not a great head coach [anymore], and he's flawed in some of his schematic ideologies, but dammit, he was getting the job done and proving that. The Wolves were 66-56 (54.1 W%) under Thibs since the start of the 2017-18 season.

Argue that his basketball philosophy didn't fully showcase his best players. I'll buy some of that. Argue that his defensive chops were lacking in Minnesota. I'll buy some of that as well. But the argument being "he's hated and people don't like him so he's deserving of termination" is soft. And nobody is softer than the owner who sits atop of this whole circus.

I get your frustration, Cam, but I respectfully disagree...Thibs' behavior issues and their impact on this team are not being exaggerated at all. I know that there are many things about Thibs that haven't come out yet and may never...no sense in looking backward. In terms of his coaching success, yes, the team did win 47 games last year. But I would maintain most of the guys on this board could coach a team with KAT, Wig, Butler, Teague and Gibson to 47 wins and a first round exit. Plus, wins aren't enough for me...I want wins and entertainment. And I will tell you, and Lip will back me up on this, the entertainment quotient at Target Center the past 2 1/2 years has been sorely lacking. I started giving my tickets away last season because I realized I was enjoying the team more on TV than in person, and the poor home attendance for a playoff team tells me I wasn't alone in this opinion. And the reason for this was Thibs and Thibs alone. On TV you can somewhat block him out, but it's impossible when you're at the game...and it's such an unpleasant experience to watch him. The constant whining and bitching, the complete lack of interaction with his players and coaches, etc etc, The contrast between the lack of command he would have over his team compared to the opposing coach during timeouts was obvious...he totally lost this team early in his tenure. In contrast, every player was laser focused on Ryan Saunders when he was talking last night. Unlike Thibs, they know he cares about them and will get emotionally involved with them, and I know that is going to result in more consistent effort on the court.

Jim Pete says it doesn't matter who is coaching for some players, but it really matters for some others. Those are the players who are going to benefit from this coaching change. I don't know how the Wolves are going to do tonight, especially if KAT is out, but I can tell you this without hesitation...I am looking forward to a game more than I have in three years. And the full arena I expect to see will tell me that I'm not alone in this opinion. This season ticket holder will tell you that it is fun to be a season ticket holder again, and that means a lot.