Minnesota Sports Forum

kekgeek1 wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:

thedoper wrote:Ugh. It made me so mad at the time but we really should have handed over the whole franchise to him. I dont think I can cheer for this team until Glen sells.

Minnesota prefers hugs and kisses over wins. That's the way it goes. Fuck this franchise.

Yep fans bitched because for winning games for the 1st time in 15 years wasn't good enough because it wasn't pretty wins. Fuck that I want to be in the playoffs again

I don't agree with this at all.

Struggle through 15 years and throw it all in for one year where it was 100% obvious we would not contend? That's the right play?

Our organization panicked after Flip died and fucked up his final years of planning.

Now here we are..

1. It wasn't supposed to be only one year.
2. The Wolves STILL had two "potential superstars" and #1 picks on the roster after the trade. That was supposed to be the long-term plan/asset.
3. So was the trade the failure? Or, banking so much on Towns and Wiggins? After all, do we really think having LaVine and Kris Dunn and whoever at that pick would have been better than that Wolves team?

1) It was one year. Expecting anything else is nonsense.
2) Agreed. That is exactly my position. We accelerated our rebuild rather than letting it sort out. For what?
3) I was a Dunn fan. He sucks. LaVine on the otherhand would be absolutely perfect around KAT. I'd also prefer Markannen or whoever over a guy named Patton who is no longer here.

LaVine,Dunn, #7,#17, Butler, for RoCo, Saric (a trade up for Culver), and a playoff exit. That is what our franchise did.

Yes but you can't use hindsight in every move.

That is like saying if we trade RoCo for a 1st and that first becomes the next Giannis. The butler trade is the greatest trade in history.

That is how silly using hindsight is, multiple moves down the road.

Also Lavine hasn't proven that he is a positive player.

Dunn is a backup PG

#7 pick was Lauri Markkanen and he is solid but not a needle mover.

#17 was a bust of a pick. Missed out on OG, Collins and Kuzma. Collins is the only one who could be a needle mover albeit small mover

We are in the same spot either way. Also Butler on this team had such a high ceiling

The hindsight point you made is fair. I get that stance.

I never never agreed with the initial move, so that is how I speak on it. We would be so much further ahead in all aspects of we did not make that trade. We would have more assets, we would have better fits around KAT, we would have given KAT the keys.

You told your young star that he wasnt the answer when he was 22. Now you expect him to care to stay?

You draft a star, develop a star, then add around them when they're actually ready for high level play.

Did anyone else here not see a top 5 player in history in LeBron take 8 or so years before winning a championship.

Stupid (maybe smart? I mean all our owners are billionaires.) franchises keep stupid fans rooting for stupid prizes.

TheFuture wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:

thedoper wrote:Ugh. It made me so mad at the time but we really should have handed over the whole franchise to him. I dont think I can cheer for this team until Glen sells.

Minnesota prefers hugs and kisses over wins. That's the way it goes. Fuck this franchise.

Yep fans bitched because for winning games for the 1st time in 15 years wasn't good enough because it wasn't pretty wins. Fuck that I want to be in the playoffs again

I don't agree with this at all.

Struggle through 15 years and throw it all in for one year where it was 100% obvious we would not contend? That's the right play?

Our organization panicked after Flip died and fucked up his final years of planning.

Now here we are..

1. It wasn't supposed to be only one year.
2. The Wolves STILL had two "potential superstars" and #1 picks on the roster after the trade. That was supposed to be the long-term plan/asset.
3. So was the trade the failure? Or, banking so much on Towns and Wiggins? After all, do we really think having LaVine and Kris Dunn and whoever at that pick would have been better than that Wolves team?

1) It was one year. Expecting anything else is nonsense.
2) Agreed. That is exactly my position. We accelerated our rebuild rather than letting it sort out. For what?
3) I was a Dunn fan. He sucks. LaVine on the otherhand would be absolutely perfect around KAT. I'd also prefer Markannen or whoever over a guy named Patton who is no longer here.

LaVine,Dunn, #7,#17, Butler, for RoCo, Saric (a trade up for Culver), and a playoff exit. That is what our franchise did.

Yes but you can't use hindsight in every move.

That is like saying if we trade RoCo for a 1st and that first becomes the next Giannis. The butler trade is the greatest trade in history.

That is how silly using hindsight is, multiple moves down the road.

Also Lavine hasn't proven that he is a positive player.

Dunn is a backup PG

#7 pick was Lauri Markkanen and he is solid but not a needle mover.

#17 was a bust of a pick. Missed out on OG, Collins and Kuzma. Collins is the only one who could be a needle mover albeit small mover

We are in the same spot either way. Also Butler on this team had such a high ceiling

The hindsight point you made is fair. I get that stance.

I never never agreed with the initial move, so that is how I speak on it. We would be so much further ahead in all aspects of we did not make that trade. We would have more assets, we would have better fits around KAT, we would have given KAT the keys.

You told your young star that he wasnt the answer when he was 22. Now you expect him to care to stay?

You draft a star, develop a star, then add around them when they're actually ready for high level play.

Did anyone else here not see a top 5 player in history in LeBron take 8 or so years before winning a championship.

Stupid (maybe smart? I mean all our owners are billionaires.) franchises keep stupid fans rooting for stupid prizes.

I think it is how you value the guys that we traded. I really see nothing in the guys that we traded away. I honestly don't think Lavine, Lauri and Dunn today could get a player of Butlers caliber. I don't think if we added Lavine, Lauri and Dunn to this team (take out Cov) that we have a playoff caliber roster. Then it is about ranking trade assets. I think it goes Cov, Lauri, Lavine then Dunn.

Wolves took an educated risk in adding Bulter. Personally I would do it again in a heart beat not knowing the result. Add Butler to this team, with solid role players in Gibson and Rose on this team I think the wolves are competing for a championship this year.

TheFuture wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:

thedoper wrote:Ugh. It made me so mad at the time but we really should have handed over the whole franchise to him. I dont think I can cheer for this team until Glen sells.

Minnesota prefers hugs and kisses over wins. That's the way it goes. Fuck this franchise.

Yep fans bitched because for winning games for the 1st time in 15 years wasn't good enough because it wasn't pretty wins. Fuck that I want to be in the playoffs again

I don't agree with this at all.

Struggle through 15 years and throw it all in for one year where it was 100% obvious we would not contend? That's the right play?

Our organization panicked after Flip died and fucked up his final years of planning.

Now here we are..

1. It wasn't supposed to be only one year.
2. The Wolves STILL had two "potential superstars" and #1 picks on the roster after the trade. That was supposed to be the long-term plan/asset.
3. So was the trade the failure? Or, banking so much on Towns and Wiggins? After all, do we really think having LaVine and Kris Dunn and whoever at that pick would have been better than that Wolves team?

1) It was one year. Expecting anything else is nonsense.
2) Agreed. That is exactly my position. We accelerated our rebuild rather than letting it sort out. For what?
3) I was a Dunn fan. He sucks. LaVine on the otherhand would be absolutely perfect around KAT. I'd also prefer Markannen or whoever over a guy named Patton who is no longer here.

LaVine,Dunn, #7,#17, Butler, for RoCo, Saric (a trade up for Culver), and a playoff exit. That is what our franchise did.

Yes but you can't use hindsight in every move.

That is like saying if we trade RoCo for a 1st and that first becomes the next Giannis. The butler trade is the greatest trade in history.

That is how silly using hindsight is, multiple moves down the road.

Also Lavine hasn't proven that he is a positive player.

Dunn is a backup PG

#7 pick was Lauri Markkanen and he is solid but not a needle mover.

#17 was a bust of a pick. Missed out on OG, Collins and Kuzma. Collins is the only one who could be a needle mover albeit small mover

We are in the same spot either way. Also Butler on this team had such a high ceiling

The hindsight point you made is fair. I get that stance.

I never never agreed with the initial move, so that is how I speak on it. We would be so much further ahead in all aspects of we did not make that trade. We would have more assets, we would have better fits around KAT, we would have given KAT the keys.

You told your young star that he wasnt the answer when he was 22. Now you expect him to care to stay?

You draft a star, develop a star, then add around them when they're actually ready for high level play.

Did anyone else here not see a top 5 player in history in LeBron take 8 or so years before winning a championship.

Stupid (maybe smart? I mean all our owners are billionaires.) franchises keep stupid fans rooting for stupid prizes.

To be fair, LeBron James was on a pretty clear trajectory. Crappy first season... winning record in year 2. 50 wins and playoff series win in year 3. They won at least one series every other season he was in Cleveland, regardless of who was around him.

Heck, the Cavs had a winning record with Ira Newble and Jeff McGinnis as starters. James didn't have a #1 pick max guy sidekick. And he was still way, way ahead of Towns. Or Wiggins or whatever young guy you want to pick.

If championships are your goal, sure, the 8 year thing matters. But as noted... should any sane Wolves fan really be angling for a championship? That's just not feasible.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:

thedoper wrote:Ugh. It made me so mad at the time but we really should have handed over the whole franchise to him. I dont think I can cheer for this team until Glen sells.

Minnesota prefers hugs and kisses over wins. That's the way it goes. Fuck this franchise.

Yep fans bitched because for winning games for the 1st time in 15 years wasn't good enough because it wasn't pretty wins. Fuck that I want to be in the playoffs again

I don't agree with this at all.

Struggle through 15 years and throw it all in for one year where it was 100% obvious we would not contend? That's the right play?

Our organization panicked after Flip died and fucked up his final years of planning.

Now here we are..

1. It wasn't supposed to be only one year.
2. The Wolves STILL had two "potential superstars" and #1 picks on the roster after the trade. That was supposed to be the long-term plan/asset.
3. So was the trade the failure? Or, banking so much on Towns and Wiggins? After all, do we really think having LaVine and Kris Dunn and whoever at that pick would have been better than that Wolves team?

1) It was one year. Expecting anything else is nonsense.
2) Agreed. That is exactly my position. We accelerated our rebuild rather than letting it sort out. For what?
3) I was a Dunn fan. He sucks. LaVine on the otherhand would be absolutely perfect around KAT. I'd also prefer Markannen or whoever over a guy named Patton who is no longer here.

LaVine,Dunn, #7,#17, Butler, for RoCo, Saric (a trade up for Culver), and a playoff exit. That is what our franchise did.

Yes but you can't use hindsight in every move.

That is like saying if we trade RoCo for a 1st and that first becomes the next Giannis. The butler trade is the greatest trade in history.

That is how silly using hindsight is, multiple moves down the road.

Also Lavine hasn't proven that he is a positive player.

Dunn is a backup PG

#7 pick was Lauri Markkanen and he is solid but not a needle mover.

#17 was a bust of a pick. Missed out on OG, Collins and Kuzma. Collins is the only one who could be a needle mover albeit small mover

We are in the same spot either way. Also Butler on this team had such a high ceiling

The hindsight point you made is fair. I get that stance.

I never never agreed with the initial move, so that is how I speak on it. We would be so much further ahead in all aspects of we did not make that trade. We would have more assets, we would have better fits around KAT, we would have given KAT the keys.

You told your young star that he wasnt the answer when he was 22. Now you expect him to care to stay?

You draft a star, develop a star, then add around them when they're actually ready for high level play.

Did anyone else here not see a top 5 player in history in LeBron take 8 or so years before winning a championship.

Stupid (maybe smart? I mean all our owners are billionaires.) franchises keep stupid fans rooting for stupid prizes.

To be fair, LeBron James was on a pretty clear trajectory. Crappy first season... winning record in year 2. 50 wins and playoff series win in year 3. They won at least one series every other season he was in Cleveland, regardless of who was around him.

Heck, the Cavs had a winning record with Ira Newble and Jeff McGinnis as starters. James didn't have a #1 pick max guy sidekick. And he was still way, way ahead of Towns. Or Wiggins or whatever young guy you want to pick.

If championships are your goal, sure, the 8 year thing matters. But as noted... should any sane Wolves fan really be angling for a championship? That's just not feasible.

s

I will also say on sort of this point if Giannis leaves the Bucks after next offseason, I will be fully convinced that it will be impossible for the Twolves to ever win a title or a small market especially in the Midwest to win a title.

The NBA might die in my mind in 2 seasons if Giannis leaves because I can't think of anyway a small market like the Wolves can even have a plan to be successful going forward. That will be a sad day.

Giannis seems wired a bit differently... but what do we really know.

It's not like I really know anything about him. But I agree... I'm definitely rooting for him to stay.

Even as every talking head is pushing otherwise, knowing it's better for their own careers (easier and more plentiful narratives to write/discuss)... which in turn, leads to some/many fans normalizing it even more.

You make that trade for Butler ten times out of ten. Period. Where Minnesota failed was surrounding those two with enough depth to really contend in the playoffs. If we recall correctly, the starting five of Teague, Butler, Wiggins, Gibson, and Towns was one of the most productive starting fives in all of basketball, but the Wolves as a team fell apart when the reserves came in games. Keep in mind that was also with a borderline useless version of Wiggins too.

If the Wolves had locked Butler into a long-term deal and we still had him and Towns we'd potentially be right where we need to be in terms of NBA duos and contending in the West. Obviously, moves would have needed to be made to round out a real bench and tweak the starting lineup to give it more shooting, but that's a lot easier than scouring for star players -- which is exactly the position the Wolves are right back in.

Camden wrote:You make that trade for Butler ten times out of ten. Period. Where Minnesota failed was surrounding those two with enough depth to really contend in the playoffs. If we recall correctly, the starting five of Teague, Butler, Wiggins, Gibson, and Towns was one of the most productive starting fives in all of basketball, but the Wolves as a team fell apart when the reserves came in games. Keep in mind that was also with a borderline useless version of Wiggins too.

If the Wolves had locked Butler into a long-term deal and we still had him and Towns we'd potentially be right where we need to be in terms of NBA duos and contending in the West. Obviously, moves would have needed to be made to round out a real bench and tweak the starting lineup to give it more shooting, but that's a lot easier than scouring for star players -- which is exactly the position the Wolves are right back in.

We're in that position because we made the Butler deal.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:You make that trade for Butler ten times out of ten. Period. Where Minnesota failed was surrounding those two with enough depth to really contend in the playoffs. If we recall correctly, the starting five of Teague, Butler, Wiggins, Gibson, and Towns was one of the most productive starting fives in all of basketball, but the Wolves as a team fell apart when the reserves came in games. Keep in mind that was also with a borderline useless version of Wiggins too.

If the Wolves had locked Butler into a long-term deal and we still had him and Towns we'd potentially be right where we need to be in terms of NBA duos and contending in the West. Obviously, moves would have needed to be made to round out a real bench and tweak the starting lineup to give it more shooting, but that's a lot easier than scouring for star players -- which is exactly the position the Wolves are right back in.

We're in that position because we made the Butler deal.

If that Butler deal was never made, the Wolves likely re-sign LaVine and lock themselves into a roster that has no chance of ever getting a player of Butler's caliber. So, you're right, the Wolves would be in an even worse position without the Butler deal. Good correction, Cool.

Camden wrote:You make that trade for Butler ten times out of ten. Period. Where Minnesota failed was surrounding those two with enough depth to really contend in the playoffs. If we recall correctly, the starting five of Teague, Butler, Wiggins, Gibson, and Towns was one of the most productive starting fives in all of basketball, but the Wolves as a team fell apart when the reserves came in games. Keep in mind that was also with a borderline useless version of Wiggins too.

If the Wolves had locked Butler into a long-term deal and we still had him and Towns we'd potentially be right where we need to be in terms of NBA duos and contending in the West. Obviously, moves would have needed to be made to round out a real bench and tweak the starting lineup to give it more shooting, but that's a lot easier than scouring for star players -- which is exactly the position the Wolves are right back in.

Wiggins was the albatross you could never overcome, a max players playing far below his earnings. Especially with guys like DIeng and Teague making big money. Butler was due a 18 million raise so you simply had no chance to build a bench and you'd already have 3 MAX players and over the LUX cap if you extended Butler. It was never going to work out.

GSW can and will because the owner will pay a few hundred million to win.

Trading for Butler was a bad move, but made even worse is when it didn't work out (after the first year) Thibs didn't be proactive and trade Butler before he sent a grenade into the locker room to get out. Thibs should have known about the tension between Butler and the young guys.

Camden wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:You make that trade for Butler ten times out of ten. Period. Where Minnesota failed was surrounding those two with enough depth to really contend in the playoffs. If we recall correctly, the starting five of Teague, Butler, Wiggins, Gibson, and Towns was one of the most productive starting fives in all of basketball, but the Wolves as a team fell apart when the reserves came in games. Keep in mind that was also with a borderline useless version of Wiggins too.

If the Wolves had locked Butler into a long-term deal and we still had him and Towns we'd potentially be right where we need to be in terms of NBA duos and contending in the West. Obviously, moves would have needed to be made to round out a real bench and tweak the starting lineup to give it more shooting, but that's a lot easier than scouring for star players -- which is exactly the position the Wolves are right back in.

We're in that position because we made the Butler deal.

If that Butler deal was never made, the Wolves likely re-sign LaVine and lock themselves into a roster that has no chance of ever getting a player of Butler's caliber. So, you're right, the Wolves would be in an even worse position without the Butler deal. Good correction, Cool.

I'[d rather have LaVine then Teague right now. Essentially every move the Wolves have made except for drafting and resigning Towns has been the wrong one and one I have disagreed with.

You end up in bad positions like where we are now when over many years making boneheaded deals over and over again.

From maxing out Wiggins, to trading for Butler, to giving out bad contracts to many other players, to drafting the wrong players, not trading Butler sooner, etc...... All bad. Bad moves will give you bad results.