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Re: Thibs is biggest Fraud since Madoff

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:01 pm
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
SJM - Exactly on the late-game substitutions. If Thibs is going to completely go with a Point-Wiggins offense at the end of games, he should substitute accordingly to ensure Wig gets as much space as possible. Rubio, Dieng, and Dunn have absolutely no purpose on offense when we go all in on Point Wiggins.

Lip - I am pointing the finger at Thibs, but I am also not smart enough to know what percent of the blame to assign to him. But surely any reasonable observer would agree that he has to have some accountability for the fact that the team and nearly every single player is worse off this year than last year.

Re: Thibs is biggest Fraud since Madoff

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:51 pm
by Coolbreeze44
Q12543 wrote:SJM - Exactly on the late-game substitutions. If Thibs is going to completely go with a Point-Wiggins offense at the end of games, he should substitute accordingly to ensure Wig gets as much space as possible. Rubio, Dieng, and Dunn have absolutely no purpose on offense when we go all in on Point Wiggins.

Lip - I am pointing the finger at Thibs, but I am also not smart enough to know what percent of the blame to assign to him. But surely any reasonable observer would agree that he has to have some accountability for the fact that the team and nearly every single player is worse off this year than last year.

I understand why it's necessary to get the ball out of Ricky's hands at the end of games, but I also agree that he serves no purpose when he isn't the dominant ball handler. I suppose Thibs might be worried about getting the ball across the timeline without him in there. But one purpose seems to defeat the other. I don't see much of a future for Ricky with Thibs in charge.

And I'm with you on Thibs. He has to take some accountability but it's real hard to see how much.

Re: Thibs is biggest Fraud since Madoff

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:42 pm
by Lipoli390
Q and Cool -- No way any of us can know exactly how much responsibility Thibs should bear. But I think the evidence overwhelmingly supports the conclusion that he bears "most" of the responsibility, even if it's 51 or 52%. When the exact same team goes from improving under the prior coach to regressing under the new coach in wins as well as nearly every major statistical category and when every single player except (Zach) regresses under the new coach, I'd say that's a compelling case for assigning most of the blame to the new coach.

I sense that people who want to believe in Thibs have a hard time accepting the clear implication of the facts. So why am I not ready to call for terminating Thibs even if it were a realistic option? Because by holding him responsible for most of this team's regression and lack of improvement, it doesn't mean he's failed yet. He may be failing in the short term by attempting to get players to do things they simply aren't mentally or physically ready to do. Thibs's style requires tremendous physical and mental toughness and intensity. Thibs's defense demands a level of team coordination that these guys haven't had before. Perhaps it's going to take more than 37 games to instill those qualities and habits. So when I say the facts tell us Thibs is primarily responsible for the bad thus far, it doesn't mean I think he's already failed. What it means in my view is that, if this team turns around, Thibs will be primarily responsible for the team's ensuing success. It will mean the short-term pain we've all endured (players and fans) will have brought us long-term gain. And I'll be the first to thank Thibs for the result even as I now curse him for the painful journey.

Re: Thibs is biggest Fraud since Madoff

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:51 pm
by Monster
lipoli390 wrote:Q and Cool -- No way any of us can know exactly how much responsibility Thibs should bear. But I think the evidence overwhelmingly supports the conclusion that he bears "most" of the responsibility, even if it's 51 or 52%. When the exact same team goes from improving under the prior coach to regressing under the new coach in wins as well as nearly every major statistical category and when every single player except (Zach) regresses under the new coach, I'd say that's a compelling case for assigning most of the blame to the new coach.

I sense that people who want to believe in Thibs have a hard time accepting the clear implication of the facts. So why am I not ready to call for terminating Thibs even if it were a realistic option? Because by holding him responsible for most of this team's regression and lack of improvement, it doesn't mean he's failed yet. He may be failing in the short term by attempting to get players to do things they simply aren't mentally or physically ready to do. Thibs's style requires tremendous physical and mental toughness and intensity. Thibs's defense demands a level of team coordination that these guys haven't had before. Perhaps it's going to take more than 37 games to instill those qualities and habits. So when I say the facts tell us Thibs is primarily responsible for the bad thus far, it doesn't mean I think he's already failed. What it means in my view is that, if this team turns around, Thibs will be primarily responsible for the team's ensuing success. It will mean the short-term pain we've all endured (players and fans) will have brought us long-term gain. And I'll be the first to thank Thibs for the result even as I now curse him for the painful journey.


Well put Lip.

Re: Thibs is biggest Fraud since Madoff

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:53 pm
by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
Let's get one thing straight. Firing a coach after 1 season because it was a bad season is what terrible organizations do. That's some Sacramento Kings shit right there and it shouldn't even be a thought in anyone's head of you ever want this team to get back to respectability.

Re: Thibs is biggest Fraud since Madoff

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:59 pm
by Coolbreeze44
khans2k5 wrote:Let's get one thing straight. Firing a coach after 1 season because it was a bad season is what terrible organizations do. That's some Sacramento Kings shit right there and it shouldn't even be a thought in anyone's head of you ever want this team to get back to respectability.

Maybe, but there was the Les Steckel case.

Re: Thibs is biggest Fraud since Madoff

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:03 am
by Lipoli390
CoolBreeze44 wrote:
khans2k5 wrote:Let's get one thing straight. Firing a coach after 1 season because it was a bad season is what terrible organizations do. That's some Sacramento Kings shit right there and it shouldn't even be a thought in anyone's head of you ever want this team to get back to respectability.

Maybe, but there was the Les Steckel case.


Bad organizations make poor personnel decisions -- both players and coaches. Good organizations can make bad personnel decisions occasionally, but they quickly recognize and rectify those decisions. It's silly to stick with something that doesn't work because of some theory that changing it would be what losing organizations do. Les Steckel is a good example of moving on quickly from something that clearly didn't work. If we end up with 25-29 wins this season, I'd say that things aren't working under Thibs. If it were me I'd move on. But this is Glen Taylor so I'm sure he'll stay the course. Then as things continue to sputter, he'll make a change a year or two later. That's what losing organizations do. They make bad decisions then stick too long with what doesn't work.

Re: Thibs is biggest Fraud since Madoff

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:24 am
by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
lipoli390 wrote:
CoolBreeze44 wrote:
khans2k5 wrote:Let's get one thing straight. Firing a coach after 1 season because it was a bad season is what terrible organizations do. That's some Sacramento Kings shit right there and it shouldn't even be a thought in anyone's head of you ever want this team to get back to respectability.

Maybe, but there was the Les Steckel case.


Bad organizations make poor personnel decisions -- both players and coaches. Good organizations can make bad personnel decisions occasionally, but they quickly recognize and rectify those decisions. It's silly to stick with something that doesn't work because of some theory that changing it would be what losing organizations do. Les Steckel is a good example of moving on quickly from something that clearly didn't work. If we end up with 25-29 wins this season, I'd say that things aren't working under Thibs. If it were me I'd move on. But this is Glen Taylor so I'm sure he'll stay the course. Then as things continue to sputter, he'll make a change a year or two later. That's what losing organizations do. They make bad decisions then stick too long with what doesn't work.


Sticking with a coach for more than 1 season isn't too long. How many guys is Thibs playing that he put on the team? Dunn, Aldrich, Rush. A rookie and two limited bench players. Everybody else that's playing was inherited. It's not his team yet and he deserves more than 1 year to make his team. What makes you think the team will take a leap under a 4th coach in as many years? That'd be wasting another half-season on adjusting to the new coach. Good teams are built on continuity. Something we haven't had for 3 straight years now and won't have if you bring in someone else next year. He has money. He has assets. Let's see what he does this summer and how we do next year and you can fire him then if we are still terrible. Too many people expected plug and play with a bunch of young players. Plug and play only works with tenured players who know how to play basketball correctly. It's pretty obvious our guys have a long ways to go in that category.

Re: Thibs is biggest Fraud since Madoff

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:59 am
by Monster
khans2k5 wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
CoolBreeze44 wrote:
khans2k5 wrote:Let's get one thing straight. Firing a coach after 1 season because it was a bad season is what terrible organizations do. That's some Sacramento Kings shit right there and it shouldn't even be a thought in anyone's head of you ever want this team to get back to respectability.

Maybe, but there was the Les Steckel case.


Bad organizations make poor personnel decisions -- both players and coaches. Good organizations can make bad personnel decisions occasionally, but they quickly recognize and rectify those decisions. It's silly to stick with something that doesn't work because of some theory that changing it would be what losing organizations do. Les Steckel is a good example of moving on quickly from something that clearly didn't work. If we end up with 25-29 wins this season, I'd say that things aren't working under Thibs. If it were me I'd move on. But this is Glen Taylor so I'm sure he'll stay the course. Then as things continue to sputter, he'll make a change a year or two later. That's what losing organizations do. They make bad decisions then stick too long with what doesn't work.


Sticking with a coach for more than 1 season isn't too long. How many guys is Thibs playing that he put on the team? Dunn, Aldrich, Rush. A rookie and two limited bench players. Everybody else that's playing was inherited. It's not his team yet and he deserves more than 1 year to make his team. What makes you think the team will take a leap under a 4th coach in as many years? That'd be wasting another half-season on adjusting to the new coach. Good teams are built on continuity. Something we haven't had for 3 straight years now and won't have if you bring in someone else next year. He has money. He has assets. Let's see what he does this summer and how we do next year and you can fire him then if we are still terrible. Too many people expected plug and play with a bunch of young players. Plug and play only works with tenured players who know how to play basketball correctly. It's pretty obvious our guys have a long ways to go in that category.


Agreed but I will add that it's been 4 straight years of no continuity not 3. Dieng and Bazz have played for a different coach every single NBA season 4 years in a row. Let that sink in. People are frustrated and rightly so but it seems to me Thibs and Layden are not taking shortcuts they are trying to build something here. That can take time. If the Wolves moved on From Thibs after his season only winning 25-29 wins they would be just like the Sacramento Kings and...we don't want to be emulating that franchise anytime soon.

Re: Thibs is biggest Fraud since Madoff

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:38 am
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
monsterpile wrote:
khans2k5 wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
CoolBreeze44 wrote:
khans2k5 wrote:Let's get one thing straight. Firing a coach after 1 season because it was a bad season is what terrible organizations do. That's some Sacramento Kings shit right there and it shouldn't even be a thought in anyone's head of you ever want this team to get back to respectability.

Maybe, but there was the Les Steckel case.


Bad organizations make poor personnel decisions -- both players and coaches. Good organizations can make bad personnel decisions occasionally, but they quickly recognize and rectify those decisions. It's silly to stick with something that doesn't work because of some theory that changing it would be what losing organizations do. Les Steckel is a good example of moving on quickly from something that clearly didn't work. If we end up with 25-29 wins this season, I'd say that things aren't working under Thibs. If it were me I'd move on. But this is Glen Taylor so I'm sure he'll stay the course. Then as things continue to sputter, he'll make a change a year or two later. That's what losing organizations do. They make bad decisions then stick too long with what doesn't work.


Sticking with a coach for more than 1 season isn't too long. How many guys is Thibs playing that he put on the team? Dunn, Aldrich, Rush. A rookie and two limited bench players. Everybody else that's playing was inherited. It's not his team yet and he deserves more than 1 year to make his team. What makes you think the team will take a leap under a 4th coach in as many years? That'd be wasting another half-season on adjusting to the new coach. Good teams are built on continuity. Something we haven't had for 3 straight years now and won't have if you bring in someone else next year. He has money. He has assets. Let's see what he does this summer and how we do next year and you can fire him then if we are still terrible. Too many people expected plug and play with a bunch of young players. Plug and play only works with tenured players who know how to play basketball correctly. It's pretty obvious our guys have a long ways to go in that category.


Agreed but I will add that it's been 4 straight years of no continuity not 3. Dieng and Bazz have played for a different coach every single NBA season 4 years in a row. Let that sink in. People are frustrated and rightly so but it seems to me Thibs and Layden are not taking shortcuts they are trying to build something here. That can take time. If the Wolves moved on From Thibs after his season only winning 25-29 wins they would be just like the Sacramento Kings and...we don't want to be emulating that franchise anytime soon.


Steph Curry played for three different coaches in his first three years and has had a total of five head coaches. That didn't seem to slow him or the Warriors down too much!