Minnesota Sports Forum

I think at this point we have to include Tyus Jones in the mix of Tom Thibodeau and player development despite Jones being a Flip Saunders acquisition. The jump Jones has made from defensive liability to elite defender this year is nothing short of amazing. Jones deserves the bulk of the credit, obviously, but Thibs has really done a job with him and he's trusted him more and more as the season's continued.

Camden wrote:There's no way to know if the Wolves would be better on the floor with Rubio instead of Teague, but one thing is for certain. We would not have a first-round pick to play with if we hadn't traded Rubio. The swap is basically Teague and that OKC first-rounder for Rubio. I take the former option 10 times out of 10, personally. And that's from someone that argued in Rubio's favor more than I argued against him.

My angle was less about whether one was better than the other and more about how we spent our money this offseason. At the time I didn't think it was necessary to spend more money on the PG position since I felt Rubio and Teague were in the same middle tier of starting PGs. What's funny is I feel both have struggled a bit to fit cleanly on their respective teams. But I will acknowledge that Teague is having the better season so far.

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Great analysis Mikkeman.

I have no real informed opinion about Utah and what has happened, so my "letting Ricky be Ricky" was pure speculation just based on his more recent numbers.

There is no question Rubio had a long stretch of mediocre play this year, with the TOs being uncharacteristically high. And perhaps he will return to that level of play as the season winds down. But I love it when he's doing well!

P.S. Ricky's TS% is higher than Andrew Wiggins. That says a lot more about Wiggins and his poor shot selection/shot making than it does Rubio.

Yeah Wiggins has struggled this year no doubt. Also comparing the 2 guys Rubio takes a higher percentage of his shots from 3 and gets to the line at a decent rate and makes his FTs. Rubio is also shooting a career high from 2 point range. He is shooting a career high at the rim and also shooting well again over 40% on long 2's. How much are those numbers propped up by some really hot streaks? Idk. One number that's troubling for him is the last 2 years he has taken a lot more corner 3's and has made a below average percentage from there. Under 32.7% this year on corner 3's is not good. His shot chart is kinda interesting as he seems to take more shots on the left side of the floor.

Yeah, Ricky hits some of these hot streaks that bolster his numbers a bit, but then seems to revert back to some really extended poor shooting stretches. We'll see if he can keep up the good play of late....

Q12543 wrote:

Camden wrote:There's no way to know if the Wolves would be better on the floor with Rubio instead of Teague, but one thing is for certain. We would not have a first-round pick to play with if we hadn't traded Rubio. The swap is basically Teague and that OKC first-rounder for Rubio. I take the former option 10 times out of 10, personally. And that's from someone that argued in Rubio's favor more than I argued against him.

My angle was less about whether one was better than the other and more about how we spent our money this offseason. At the time I didn't think it was necessary to spend more money on the PG position since I felt Rubio and Teague were in the same middle tier of starting PGs. What's funny is I feel both have struggled a bit to fit cleanly on their respective teams. But I will acknowledge that Teague is having the better season so far.

Cam, I think you have to include the difference in salaries as well when making that comparison. Teague and a late first for Rubio and what could be a vet signing for around 6-7 mil.

Q, I am not so quick to say Teague has had the better season to date. Ricky has dealt with some major team injuries that Teague hasn't had to worry about. Ricky is also on the worse team talent wise.

I would swap out the two players immediately if the opportunity presented itself, and return the first as well.

I think Lip stated that it would have been nice to see how Ricky fit with the new talent that was brought in. I think we would be significantly better on D, and would see a more fluid offense similar to when Tyus is in the game.

sjm34 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Camden wrote:There's no way to know if the Wolves would be better on the floor with Rubio instead of Teague, but one thing is for certain. We would not have a first-round pick to play with if we hadn't traded Rubio. The swap is basically Teague and that OKC first-rounder for Rubio. I take the former option 10 times out of 10, personally. And that's from someone that argued in Rubio's favor more than I argued against him.

My angle was less about whether one was better than the other and more about how we spent our money this offseason. At the time I didn't think it was necessary to spend more money on the PG position since I felt Rubio and Teague were in the same middle tier of starting PGs. What's funny is I feel both have struggled a bit to fit cleanly on their respective teams. But I will acknowledge that Teague is having the better season so far.

Cam, I think you have to include the difference in salaries as well when making that comparison. Teague and a late first for Rubio and what could be a vet signing for around 6-7 mil.

Q, I am not so quick to say Teague has had the better season to date. Ricky has dealt with some major team injuries that Teague hasn't had to worry about. Ricky is also on the worse team talent wise.

I would swap out the two players immediately if the opportunity presented itself, and return the first as well.

I think Lip stated that it would have been nice to see how Ricky fit with the new talent that was brought in. I think we would be significantly better on D, and would see a more fluid offense similar to when Tyus is in the game.

I am not saying Teague has been great, but I mean he has better offensive numbers across the board compared to Ricky, he has better defensive numbers across the board. All the advance stats move in favor of Teague. They are not gigantic differences but Teague has been the better player this year. All we can say about Ricky adjusting to a new team can also been said about Teague. Teague is at his lowest Usage rating since his 3rd year in the league (6 years ago).

Besides 15 games this year Ricky has been a bottom half starting PG this year. I still love Ricky and he is one of my favorite wolves players of all time but he is having his worst year as a professional. We would have saved 4.5 mil if we could have kept Rubio. There was no vet that we could of obtained for that price that would have made a legit impact. Also we need to continue to add cheap young talent and we do that with the pick we got. Also it kept the options open at the trade deadline to actually have an asset we could trade if we feel the need to.

kekgeek1 wrote:

I am not saying Teague has been great, but I mean he has better offensive numbers across the board compared to Ricky, he has better defensive numbers across the board. All the advance stats move in favor of Teague. They are not gigantic differences but Teague has been the better player this year. All we can say about Ricky adjusting to a new team can also been said about Teague. Teague is at his lowest Usage rating since his 3rd year in the league (6 years ago).

Besides 15 games this year Ricky has been a bottom half starting PG this year. I still love Ricky and he is one of my favorite wolves players of all time but he is having his worst year as a professional. We would have saved 4.5 mil if we could have kept Rubio. There was no vet that we could of obtained for that price that would have made a legit impact. Also we need to continue to add cheap young talent and we do that with the pick we got. Also it kept the options open at the trade deadline to actually have an asset we could trade if we feel the need to.

The TS% between the two aren't even a point apart right now, and there is no comparison between the defensive abilities regardless of what some advance(?) stats say.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Ricky+Rubio&player_id1_select=Ricky+Rubio&y1=2018&player_id1=rubiori01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Jeff+Teague&player_id2_select=Jeff+Teague&y2=2018&player_id2=teaguje01&idx=players

sjm34 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

I am not saying Teague has been great, but I mean he has better offensive numbers across the board compared to Ricky, he has better defensive numbers across the board. All the advance stats move in favor of Teague. They are not gigantic differences but Teague has been the better player this year. All we can say about Ricky adjusting to a new team can also been said about Teague. Teague is at his lowest Usage rating since his 3rd year in the league (6 years ago).

Besides 15 games this year Ricky has been a bottom half starting PG this year. I still love Ricky and he is one of my favorite wolves players of all time but he is having his worst year as a professional. We would have saved 4.5 mil if we could have kept Rubio. There was no vet that we could of obtained for that price that would have made a legit impact. Also we need to continue to add cheap young talent and we do that with the pick we got. Also it kept the options open at the trade deadline to actually have an asset we could trade if we feel the need to.

The TS% between the two aren't even a point apart right now, and there is no comparison between the defensive abilities regardless of what some advance(?) stats say.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Ricky+Rubio&player_id1_select=Ricky+Rubio&y1=2018&player_id1=rubiori01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Jeff+Teague&player_id2_select=Jeff+Teague&y2=2018&player_id2=teaguje01&idx=players

My big point is year after year after year, we talked about how how Ricky advanced numbers gave him the advantage and a big plus as a player. Now the numbers are not there and Teague is posting better advance defensive numbers we can't just say oh who cares what the stats say. The Jazz have the 8th best Drating in the NBA and the wolves are 23rd but Teague is still posting better numbers than ricky in that category. Not saying Teague has been great but he has had a better season than Ricky.

kekgeek1 wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

I am not saying Teague has been great, but I mean he has better offensive numbers across the board compared to Ricky, he has better defensive numbers across the board. All the advance stats move in favor of Teague. They are not gigantic differences but Teague has been the better player this year. All we can say about Ricky adjusting to a new team can also been said about Teague. Teague is at his lowest Usage rating since his 3rd year in the league (6 years ago).

Besides 15 games this year Ricky has been a bottom half starting PG this year. I still love Ricky and he is one of my favorite wolves players of all time but he is having his worst year as a professional. We would have saved 4.5 mil if we could have kept Rubio. There was no vet that we could of obtained for that price that would have made a legit impact. Also we need to continue to add cheap young talent and we do that with the pick we got. Also it kept the options open at the trade deadline to actually have an asset we could trade if we feel the need to.

The TS% between the two aren't even a point apart right now, and there is no comparison between the defensive abilities regardless of what some advance(?) stats say.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Ricky+Rubio&player_id1_select=Ricky+Rubio&y1=2018&player_id1=rubiori01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Jeff+Teague&player_id2_select=Jeff+Teague&y2=2018&player_id2=teaguje01&idx=players

My big point is year after year after year, we talked about how how Ricky advanced numbers gave him the advantage and a big plus as a player. Now the numbers are not there and Teague is posting better advance defensive numbers we can't just say oh who cares what the stats say. The Jazz have the 8th best Drating in the NBA and the wolves are 23rd but Teague is still posting better numbers than ricky in that category. Not saying Teague has been great but he has had a better season than Ricky.

You can't look at advance stats for defense. Last year Wiggins were terrible and Diengs were really good mainly due to Dieng not showing on the PnR, which caused WIg to help off his man in the weak-side corner. When that passing lane was open due to Gorgui still sitting down in the paint, teams pounded us with corner 3's. That goes against Wig in those so called advanced stats. In many cases they punish the wrong players. Teague is a horrible defender comparable to the likes of T-Hud. We added Butler and Gibson, and are still a poor defensive team overall. That should be a huge clue as to Teague's effectiveness. When we play any of the better PG's, Jimmy usually guards them.

Camden0916 wrote:I think at this point we have to include Tyus Jones in the mix of Tom Thibodeau and player development despite Jones being a Flip Saunders acquisition. The jump Jones has made from defensive liability to elite defender this year is nothing short of amazing. Jones deserves the bulk of the credit, obviously, but Thibs has really done a job with him and he's trusted him more and more as the season's continued.

Thibs was a backup PG whisperer in Chicago. He made guys like Brooks and Agustine look like decent starters when they filled in. That was one of things I was actually excited about with Thibs. I thought he would have a positive impact on Tyus.

Camden wrote:I think at this point we have to include Tyus Jones in the mix of Tom Thibodeau and player development despite Jones being a Flip Saunders acquisition. The jump Jones has made from defensive liability to elite defender this year is nothing short of amazing. Jones deserves the bulk of the credit, obviously, but Thibs has really done a job with him and he's trusted him more and more as the season's continued.

I agree completely, Cam. It was obvious that Thibs trusted Tyus even before the season when he made no effort to sign a significant backup PG. Thibs clearly liked what he saw from Tyus last season.