Pork was right

[MikkeMan]

Agree and disagree. The problem with running everything through KAT, Wiggins, and LaVine is that these guys aren't nearly as adept at getting others open looks. One could argue these three need Ricky as much as he needs them. They like to score and have a tendency of getting tunnel vision, while he loves to pass and would love nothing more than to dish assists. Last night I noticed that Thibs ran a lot more high pick and roll with Ricky. Unsurprisingly, it led to open shot after open shot, usually for Dieng or KAT. They didn't make them all, but they had a lot of good opportunities.

Where I agree with you is that over the long run, it may not be a bad thing for these guys to figure out how to make plays, run PnR, etc. in order to accelerate their development as something other than just scorers.

When I saw last season that Kidd will make Greek Freak team's point guard, I thought that it will be pretty long process before he learns it. I even saw several Milwaukee games last year and thought that he was quite clueless as point guard in half court offense even tough he looked really good in fast break. This year when I heard that Middleton will miss whole season, I thought that it will mean again no playoffs for Milwaukee since Middleton was still last year clearly their best player. I thought that GF won't be yet able to carry his team since learning to play PG takes so much time. Now it looks like my guess was wrong. Greek Freak has already learnt to play point guard pretty well (even his off-off numbers are really good) and Milwaukee might be playoff team this year.

To be fair their success this year is not just because improvement of Greek Freak. Parker has improved a lot as well and their off season signings have been pretty good as well. Adding Delly and Teletovic improved their three point shooting that might have been their biggest weakness last year. Delly can play off the ball as well since he has played with LeBron, which is important because GF plays point guard most of the time in offense. Trading for Tony Snell gave them also nice replacement player for injured Middleton. Snell isn't as good outside shooter than Middleton and he won't be able to make plays for others but his defense is every bit as good as Middleton's.

I really hope that our youngsters will learn as fast as Greek Freak to make plays for each others. Otherwise it will be still a long stretch of bad basketball in Minnesota.

[Brooklyn_Wolves [enjin:14608167]]

I think Giannis has always had those PG skills in him he was just very very raw. I think he's a very different type from Wiggins. He also has better IQ than LaVine.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I think Giannis has always had those PG skills in him he was just very very raw. I think he's a very different type from Wiggins. He also has better IQ than LaVine.

I think some of these guys that grew up playing a lot of soccer (like Giannis) are able to translate some of those skills to the NBA even though they might be raw in other respects. Soccer is a game that more than any other sport requires adept spatial recognition, off-ball movement, and passing, especially at higher levels.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I've been in my fair share of Rubio discussions. And lumped in with Pork in my fair share, albeit I was never near 100% Pork.

I was there (in the minority) when people were thinking Rubio was a better player than Westbrook. I was there the night when Kevin Love dropped 34/10+ and Rubio dropped 10/6... and the board lit me up for not agreeing that Rubio was the star of the game and best player on the team. I was there when one side would parade middling to embarrassing stats while the other side countered with decent to pretty damn good advanced metrics while trying to figure out how both sides could be right. I was there when I got ripped for suggesting a top PG could/should be able to help a team win more games even if he was only one player surrounded by average to crappy teammates.

I tried to consider both sides all along. For example, Ricky Rubio might go down as one of the most "fun" Wolves players in history. I can't think of too many I wanted to root for more than him. "Change your face" remains so wonderfully awesome. He's been imminently likeable in a lot of ways. He's always been polarizing... but there's less polarization when his game slips. See, that's the thing... for 5 years, we heard only about the Rubio upside. "He'll shoot better"... "He'll be healthier."

We never heard about the possible downside. After all, despite pretty marginal gains here and there in a few advanced metrics, he's been pretty much on a plateau since he arrived. That was good enough for many or even most considering all the other glaring holes on the team. But he has slipped, whether it's just a blip... or something more. And with that dip, we're seeing the margin for error wasn't never great.

I hope he turns it around. I still like the guy even if I'm very aware and concerned about his shortcomings. The biggest problem I've had with him is the way many people have treated him with kid gloves. I think it's fine for a year. Or two. or three. But it's year 6 now. It's time to look at Rubio for who he is... not who we hope he'll be.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I think that's a terrific post, Abe. There's no question that Ricky's likability, along with his occasional flashiness and consistent effort, makes him one of the easiest guys in the league to cheer for...perhaps that is the main reason his leash has been much longer than players who are not so lovable. But you're right...the polarization has disappeared this year with his poor performance. The board is relatively united in needing more from him. The one issue I would take with your post is your assertion that some of us declared Ricky the best player on the team even when Love was putting up 34/10. I think some, me included, argued that Ricky was our most important player, but always knew that someone else has been our best player. I might argue that he still is our most important player, and that his poor play along with our horrible start supports this assertion.

The real question is why is his play so much worse than last year. I will point out that while his assists are down, so are his TOs, and his A:TO ratio is actually better than his career average. But his shooting, scoring, rebounding and defense are all markedly worse, as is his positive impact on the game. It could be the elbow, it could be Thibs, it could be that he's over the hill...or a combination of the three. But we do know that he's not helping the team like he has in the past, and that makes this team much less watchable and fun.

[Brooklyn_Wolves [enjin:14608167]]

I've been in my fair share of Rubio discussions. And lumped in with Pork in my fair share, albeit I was never near 100% Pork.

I was there (in the minority) when people were thinking Rubio was a better player than Westbrook. I was there the night when Kevin Love dropped 34/10+ and Rubio dropped 10/6... and the board lit me up for not agreeing that Rubio was the star of the game and best player on the team. I was there when one side would parade middling to embarrassing stats while the other side countered with decent to pretty damn good advanced metrics while trying to figure out how both sides could be right. I was there when I got ripped for suggesting a top PG could/should be able to help a team win more games even if he was only one player surrounded by average to crappy teammates.

I tried to consider both sides all along. For example, Ricky Rubio might go down as one of the most "fun" Wolves players in history. I can't think of too many I wanted to root for more than him. "Change your face" remains so wonderfully awesome. He's been imminently likeable in a lot of ways. He's always been polarizing... but there's less polarization when his game slips. See, that's the thing... for 5 years, we heard only about the Rubio upside. "He'll shoot better"... "He'll be healthier."

We never heard about the possible downside. After all, despite pretty marginal gains here and there in a few advanced metrics, he's been pretty much on a plateau since he arrived. That was good enough for many or even most considering all the other glaring holes on the team. But he has slipped, whether it's just a blip... or something more. And with that dip, we're seeing the margin for error wasn't never great.

I hope he turns it around. I still like the guy even if I'm very aware and concerned about his shortcomings. The biggest problem I've had with him is the way many people have treated him with kid gloves. I think it's fine for a year. Or two. or three. But it's year 6 now. It's time to look at Rubio for who he is... not who we hope he'll be.

Oh come on, you're 100% Pork. You're just trying to hide it to play nice with most posters here (LIp, Q, LST, etc). I read your post on RGM general board in a rubio thread a year or so ago. The place where nobody knows you and you could post your feelings freely, you know, the way you really think. So again, you're 100% Pork right down to the bones. So just be yourself.

As for the bolded part I would disagree. Let's take a guy like Bledsoe who's a general consensus to be a better PG. Where are the Suns wins? Or John Wall, a superstar. Where's Washington? A veteran team. Why are they missing the playoffs? Kyrie Irving was a certified loser before LeBron. Bottom line you got to have a good team to win. Wolves never really had a good team lately. In 2013-2014 the team was at most Wizards level good.

[Wile E Coyote [enjin:17432808]]

I'm kind of with Abe on this one.

I was ecstatic when we drafted Rubio. When he had to stay in Europe for a while due to contractual issues, I read all the rumors about when he might come to the Wolves. I watched many youtube videos of his best passes. When he finally came to Minneapolis and a huge crowd formed, it was so exciting.

In the subsequent years, he has always been a huge plus/minus and advanced stats star despite being such a poor shooter. Many of us felt he would improve as a shooter since he was dependable from the free throw line and that is often an indicator.

However, it is pretty likely that Rubio is what he is now. He played many years professionally prior to the NBA and has no doubt had numerous shooting coaches. I don't expect any significant improvement. And as NBA scouts have learned more about him, defenses have started to take advantage. Teams obviously sag way off when he is on the perimeter. They also don't worry about his driving and try to steal the inevitable pass that results from a Rubio drive.

[Wile E Coyote [enjin:17432808]]

Regarding Rubio's numbers being down this year, below are my guesses:

1. Rubio's preferred method of defense is sort of chaotic and individual. He tries to steal the ball from his man, will leave and go try to steal it from someone else when they are not looking, will shoot the passing lane for a pass that hasn't even been thrown yet, etc. His high BBIQ gives him insight on good steal situations. In Thibs' scheme, I'm not sure if this style of defense is necessary easy to pull off or welcomed by the coach. I suspect Thibs is more concerned with Rubio playing solid team defense and covering his responsibilities.

2. Rubio seems to be trying to force more passes, leading to some ugly turnovers. It seems like he has thrown the ball away on the fast break once or twice for several games in a row. Teams also seem to be savvy to some of his favorite moves, like the behind the back pass around the perimeter that is nearly getting picked off every game. With Wiggins initiating more, maybe Rubio feels pressure to do something special in the reduced opportunities that he is getting.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I've been in my fair share of Rubio discussions. And lumped in with Pork in my fair share, albeit I was never near 100% Pork.

I was there (in the minority) when people were thinking Rubio was a better player than Westbrook. I was there the night when Kevin Love dropped 34/10+ and Rubio dropped 10/6... and the board lit me up for not agreeing that Rubio was the star of the game and best player on the team. I was there when one side would parade middling to embarrassing stats while the other side countered with decent to pretty damn good advanced metrics while trying to figure out how both sides could be right. I was there when I got ripped for suggesting a top PG could/should be able to help a team win more games even if he was only one player surrounded by average to crappy teammates.

I tried to consider both sides all along. For example, Ricky Rubio might go down as one of the most "fun" Wolves players in history. I can't think of too many I wanted to root for more than him. "Change your face" remains so wonderfully awesome. He's been imminently likeable in a lot of ways. He's always been polarizing... but there's less polarization when his game slips. See, that's the thing... for 5 years, we heard only about the Rubio upside. "He'll shoot better"... "He'll be healthier."

We never heard about the possible downside. After all, despite pretty marginal gains here and there in a few advanced metrics, he's been pretty much on a plateau since he arrived. That was good enough for many or even most considering all the other glaring holes on the team. But he has slipped, whether it's just a blip... or something more. And with that dip, we're seeing the margin for error wasn't never great.

I hope he turns it around. I still like the guy even if I'm very aware and concerned about his shortcomings. The biggest problem I've had with him is the way many people have treated him with kid gloves. I think it's fine for a year. Or two. or three. But it's year 6 now. It's time to look at Rubio for who he is... not who we hope he'll be.

Oh come on, you're 100% Pork. You're just trying to hide it to play nice with most posters here (LIp, Q, LST, etc). I read your post on RGM general board in a rubio thread a year or so ago. The place where nobody knows you and you could post your feelings freely, you know, the way you really think. So again, you're 100% Pork right down to the bones. So just be yourself.

As for the bolded part I would disagree. Let's take a guy like Bledsoe who's a general consensus to be a better PG. Where are the Suns wins? Or John Wall, a superstar. Where's Washington? A veteran team. Why are they missing the playoffs? Kyrie Irving was a certified loser before LeBron. Bottom line you got to have a good team to win. Wolves never really had a good team lately. In 2013-2014 the team was at most Wizards level good.

Made me look!

Here's my only post I found about Rubio last season (I rarely post there):

"Rubio is a 36% shooter. Granted, he has other magical gifts, but he's still just an average starting PG when you consider the complete package."

I discussed more about Rubio in 2014 than any other season because of the crazy 4th quarter meltdowns. I was critical of Rubio for being PART of those... and for not improving much as a player... but you guys have heard all that stuff here countless times.

Vengeance will be mine for making me waste time by searching for that stuff. You got me, dammit.


[Note: Unless I'm missing something... post the link if I am?]

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I don't think those of us that are Rubio defenders ever made the case that he could take a team on his back and will them to victory, ala LeBron or Westbrook or even Lillard. On the other hand, the numbers speak for themselves on his positive impact (up until this year), yet many of his fiercest critics choose to ignore those numbers and instead use the generalized "but the team isn't winning" argument that he is not a good PG.

Brooklyn brought up a great example in John Wall as a PG that most here would undoubtedly rank higher than Rubio, yet Washington is struggling yet again this year. So I guess that means he's not very good, right??? The other guy I would cite in a similar boat is DeMarcus Cousins. Sacramento has had very little success with him being a key part of the team over multiple coaches and seasons. So I guess that means he's not a very good player either....or does the "team success = player effectiveness" rule not apply to them?

None of this diminishes the fact Rubio has not been very good this year, but once again, neither has his team mates.