Minnesota Sports Forum

longstrangetrip wrote:

PorkChop wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:I didn't see today's game, but it sounds like Ricky was as unimpressive as he was in Game 1...very disappointing. And posters here are correct...the sagging off was absurd in Game 1, and made it impossible for him to create anything.

I would take a different argument than the defensive 3-second argument though (although I think that is valid too). Maybe I have my rose-colored glasses on, but I think Rubio will usually burn any team that leaves him open at the 3-point line. I was actually surprised when he missed 3 wide-open threes in the Croatia game. Here's why I think it's a poor defensive strategy against Ricky.

1) While Ricky is a poor jump shooter and below average finisher, he is an excellent free thrower...and his form on threes is a set shot similar to his form on free throws.

2) I have watched Ricky at halftime and pregame, and he makes 75% of his threes while unguarded. It's not a pretty shot but any means (neither is his free throw, for that matter), but it consistently goes in.

3) While Ricky has been a slightly below average 3-point shooter for his career (33%), he showed improvement toward the end of last year. He was above the league average in hitting 37% of his threes after the all-star break, and he made almost 40% of his threes on increased attempts the last full month of the year. Those aren't the kind of numbers that encourage a defense to ignore you.

4) Ricky has proven that he likes taking pressure threes, and is successful on them. Off the top of my head I remember the big three he hit in regulation to tie the game against the Clippers to allow Love to win it with a three in overtime, and last year's game-winning three in OkC. I can't remember any misses at the buzzer though. Some guys play better in pressure situations, and some play worse. Ricky seems to fit better in the former category, and I can't wait to watch him in the playoffs.

So, Croatia's defense worked against Ricky in game 1 because he had a terrible shooting game, but I think it is all-advised long-term. Whether it's playoffs or not, I think defenses aren't going to let Ricky take wide-open threes.

Wide open threes in the NBA isn't similar to hitting free throws in the NBA simply be cuz wide open does really exist . Any shot where you have time to set your feet and get square up towards the basket should be considered open at this level . Rubio's issue is his form breaks down when there's any kind of defense being played on him . Which tells me he gets easily distracted and loses focus on his shot and form. NBA athletes are far to quick to think Ricky will ever get wide open left alone threes with any regularity. Guys are to long and recover to fast for the speed at which Rubio shoots his shot. I just don't see room for consistency with it.

I don't disagree with your statement that Ricky's form breaks down when he's defended...I think that's why he is not likely to ever be a big-time scorer. But the discussion here was whether leaving Ricky wide-open (I don't know is you saw the first game, but that's what they did) is a viable strategy. Ricky missed three shots in Game 1 where his feet were set and he was squared up, and my argument is there is substantial evidence that was an aberration.

No, Ricky will never be a big-time scorer because of the deficiency in his game that you cite. But most of us here think he doesn't have to be a scorer...if he defends, rebounds and assists like he does, he can be very successful with this team.

PorkChop wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

PorkChop wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:I didn't see today's game, but it sounds like Ricky was as unimpressive as he was in Game 1...very disappointing. And posters here are correct...the sagging off was absurd in Game 1, and made it impossible for him to create anything.

I would take a different argument than the defensive 3-second argument though (although I think that is valid too). Maybe I have my rose-colored glasses on, but I think Rubio will usually burn any team that leaves him open at the 3-point line. I was actually surprised when he missed 3 wide-open threes in the Croatia game. Here's why I think it's a poor defensive strategy against Ricky.

1) While Ricky is a poor jump shooter and below average finisher, he is an excellent free thrower...and his form on threes is a set shot similar to his form on free throws.

2) I have watched Ricky at halftime and pregame, and he makes 75% of his threes while unguarded. It's not a pretty shot but any means (neither is his free throw, for that matter), but it consistently goes in.

3) While Ricky has been a slightly below average 3-point shooter for his career (33%), he showed improvement toward the end of last year. He was above the league average in hitting 37% of his threes after the all-star break, and he made almost 40% of his threes on increased attempts the last full month of the year. Those aren't the kind of numbers that encourage a defense to ignore you.

4) Ricky has proven that he likes taking pressure threes, and is successful on them. Off the top of my head I remember the big three he hit in regulation to tie the game against the Clippers to allow Love to win it with a three in overtime, and last year's game-winning three in OkC. I can't remember any misses at the buzzer though. Some guys play better in pressure situations, and some play worse. Ricky seems to fit better in the former category, and I can't wait to watch him in the playoffs.

So, Croatia's defense worked against Ricky in game 1 because he had a terrible shooting game, but I think it is all-advised long-term. Whether it's playoffs or not, I think defenses aren't going to let Ricky take wide-open threes.

Wide open threes in the NBA isn't similar to hitting free throws in the NBA simply be cuz wide open does really exist . Any shot where you have time to set your feet and get square up towards the basket should be considered open at this level . Rubio's issue is his form breaks down when there's any kind of defense being played on him . Which tells me he gets easily distracted and loses focus on his shot and form. NBA athletes are far to quick to think Ricky will ever get wide open left alone threes with any regularity. Guys are to long and recover to fast for the speed at which Rubio shoots his shot. I just don't see room for consistency with it.

I don't disagree with your statement that Ricky's form breaks down when he's defended...I think that's why he is not likely to ever be a big-time scorer. But the discussion here was whether leaving Ricky wide-open (I don't know is you saw the first game, but that's what they did) is a viable strategy. Ricky missed three shots in Game 1 where his feet were set and he was squared up, and my argument is there is substantial evidence that was an aberration.

No, Ricky will never be a big-time scorer because of the deficiency in his game that you cite. But most of us here think he doesn't have to be a scorer...if he defends, rebounds and assists like he does, he can be very successful with this team.

I
I don't think detractors expect him to be a big time scorer. The point I was making is that the defensive strategy doesnt have to be so drastic as to leave him completely alone . Simply play good close out d on the guy and he's gonna struggle with his shot.

longstrangetrip wrote:

PorkChop wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

PorkChop wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:I didn't see today's game, but it sounds like Ricky was as unimpressive as he was in Game 1...very disappointing. And posters here are correct...the sagging off was absurd in Game 1, and made it impossible for him to create anything.

I would take a different argument than the defensive 3-second argument though (although I think that is valid too). Maybe I have my rose-colored glasses on, but I think Rubio will usually burn any team that leaves him open at the 3-point line. I was actually surprised when he missed 3 wide-open threes in the Croatia game. Here's why I think it's a poor defensive strategy against Ricky.

1) While Ricky is a poor jump shooter and below average finisher, he is an excellent free thrower...and his form on threes is a set shot similar to his form on free throws.

2) I have watched Ricky at halftime and pregame, and he makes 75% of his threes while unguarded. It's not a pretty shot but any means (neither is his free throw, for that matter), but it consistently goes in.

3) While Ricky has been a slightly below average 3-point shooter for his career (33%), he showed improvement toward the end of last year. He was above the league average in hitting 37% of his threes after the all-star break, and he made almost 40% of his threes on increased attempts the last full month of the year. Those aren't the kind of numbers that encourage a defense to ignore you.

4) Ricky has proven that he likes taking pressure threes, and is successful on them. Off the top of my head I remember the big three he hit in regulation to tie the game against the Clippers to allow Love to win it with a three in overtime, and last year's game-winning three in OkC. I can't remember any misses at the buzzer though. Some guys play better in pressure situations, and some play worse. Ricky seems to fit better in the former category, and I can't wait to watch him in the playoffs.

So, Croatia's defense worked against Ricky in game 1 because he had a terrible shooting game, but I think it is all-advised long-term. Whether it's playoffs or not, I think defenses aren't going to let Ricky take wide-open threes.

Wide open threes in the NBA isn't similar to hitting free throws in the NBA simply be cuz wide open does really exist . Any shot where you have time to set your feet and get square up towards the basket should be considered open at this level . Rubio's issue is his form breaks down when there's any kind of defense being played on him . Which tells me he gets easily distracted and loses focus on his shot and form. NBA athletes are far to quick to think Ricky will ever get wide open left alone threes with any regularity. Guys are to long and recover to fast for the speed at which Rubio shoots his shot. I just don't see room for consistency with it.

I don't disagree with your statement that Ricky's form breaks down when he's defended...I think that's why he is not likely to ever be a big-time scorer. But the discussion here was whether leaving Ricky wide-open (I don't know is you saw the first game, but that's what they did) is a viable strategy. Ricky missed three shots in Game 1 where his feet were set and he was squared up, and my argument is there is substantial evidence that was an aberration.

No, Ricky will never be a big-time scorer because of the deficiency in his game that you cite. But most of us here think he doesn't have to be a scorer...if he defends, rebounds and assists like he does, he can be very successful with this team.

I
I don't think detractors expect him to be a big time scorer. The point I was making is that the defensive strategy doesnt have to be so drastic as to leave him completely alone . Simply play good close out d on the guy and he's gonna struggle with his shot.

OK, I get it, pork. And you're right, a quick PG can play a modified sag defense on Ricky and still adjust to impact his shot. The Croatia defense was ridiculous, though...sagging so far off that the defender never could have impacted Ricky's shot. I'm saying that won't work long-term. You and I may differ on this one, but I say that if a defender gives him a 10-foot cushion on his 3-pointer like the Croatian guy did, Ricky's going to make that set shot 50% of the time.

khans2k5 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

PorkChop wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

PorkChop wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:I didn't see today's game, but it sounds like Ricky was as unimpressive as he was in Game 1...very disappointing. And posters here are correct...the sagging off was absurd in Game 1, and made it impossible for him to create anything.

I would take a different argument than the defensive 3-second argument though (although I think that is valid too). Maybe I have my rose-colored glasses on, but I think Rubio will usually burn any team that leaves him open at the 3-point line. I was actually surprised when he missed 3 wide-open threes in the Croatia game. Here's why I think it's a poor defensive strategy against Ricky.

1) While Ricky is a poor jump shooter and below average finisher, he is an excellent free thrower...and his form on threes is a set shot similar to his form on free throws.

2) I have watched Ricky at halftime and pregame, and he makes 75% of his threes while unguarded. It's not a pretty shot but any means (neither is his free throw, for that matter), but it consistently goes in.

3) While Ricky has been a slightly below average 3-point shooter for his career (33%), he showed improvement toward the end of last year. He was above the league average in hitting 37% of his threes after the all-star break, and he made almost 40% of his threes on increased attempts the last full month of the year. Those aren't the kind of numbers that encourage a defense to ignore you.

4) Ricky has proven that he likes taking pressure threes, and is successful on them. Off the top of my head I remember the big three he hit in regulation to tie the game against the Clippers to allow Love to win it with a three in overtime, and last year's game-winning three in OkC. I can't remember any misses at the buzzer though. Some guys play better in pressure situations, and some play worse. Ricky seems to fit better in the former category, and I can't wait to watch him in the playoffs.

So, Croatia's defense worked against Ricky in game 1 because he had a terrible shooting game, but I think it is all-advised long-term. Whether it's playoffs or not, I think defenses aren't going to let Ricky take wide-open threes.

Wide open threes in the NBA isn't similar to hitting free throws in the NBA simply be cuz wide open does really exist . Any shot where you have time to set your feet and get square up towards the basket should be considered open at this level . Rubio's issue is his form breaks down when there's any kind of defense being played on him . Which tells me he gets easily distracted and loses focus on his shot and form. NBA athletes are far to quick to think Ricky will ever get wide open left alone threes with any regularity. Guys are to long and recover to fast for the speed at which Rubio shoots his shot. I just don't see room for consistency with it.

I don't disagree with your statement that Ricky's form breaks down when he's defended...I think that's why he is not likely to ever be a big-time scorer. But the discussion here was whether leaving Ricky wide-open (I don't know is you saw the first game, but that's what they did) is a viable strategy. Ricky missed three shots in Game 1 where his feet were set and he was squared up, and my argument is there is substantial evidence that was an aberration.

No, Ricky will never be a big-time scorer because of the deficiency in his game that you cite. But most of us here think he doesn't have to be a scorer...if he defends, rebounds and assists like he does, he can be very successful with this team.

I
I don't think detractors expect him to be a big time scorer. The point I was making is that the defensive strategy doesnt have to be so drastic as to leave him completely alone . Simply play good close out d on the guy and he's gonna struggle with his shot.

OK, I get it, pork. And you're right, a quick PG can play a modified sag defense on Ricky and still adjust to impact his shot. The Croatia defense was ridiculous, though...sagging so far off that the defender never could have impacted Ricky's shot. I'm saying that won't work long-term. You and I may differ on this one, but I say that if a defender gives him a 10-foot cushion on his 3-pointer like the Croatian guy did, Ricky's going to make that set shot 50% of the time.

If we're relying on Ricky jumpers regardless of how open he is we're in trouble. No matter how you spin it (FT's/spot up/etc.) he's just not a good or reliable shooter.

Phenom's_Revenge wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

PorkChop wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

PorkChop wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:I didn't see today's game, but it sounds like Ricky was as unimpressive as he was in Game 1...very disappointing. And posters here are correct...the sagging off was absurd in Game 1, and made it impossible for him to create anything.

I would take a different argument than the defensive 3-second argument though (although I think that is valid too). Maybe I have my rose-colored glasses on, but I think Rubio will usually burn any team that leaves him open at the 3-point line. I was actually surprised when he missed 3 wide-open threes in the Croatia game. Here's why I think it's a poor defensive strategy against Ricky.

1) While Ricky is a poor jump shooter and below average finisher, he is an excellent free thrower...and his form on threes is a set shot similar to his form on free throws.

2) I have watched Ricky at halftime and pregame, and he makes 75% of his threes while unguarded. It's not a pretty shot but any means (neither is his free throw, for that matter), but it consistently goes in.

3) While Ricky has been a slightly below average 3-point shooter for his career (33%), he showed improvement toward the end of last year. He was above the league average in hitting 37% of his threes after the all-star break, and he made almost 40% of his threes on increased attempts the last full month of the year. Those aren't the kind of numbers that encourage a defense to ignore you.

4) Ricky has proven that he likes taking pressure threes, and is successful on them. Off the top of my head I remember the big three he hit in regulation to tie the game against the Clippers to allow Love to win it with a three in overtime, and last year's game-winning three in OkC. I can't remember any misses at the buzzer though. Some guys play better in pressure situations, and some play worse. Ricky seems to fit better in the former category, and I can't wait to watch him in the playoffs.

So, Croatia's defense worked against Ricky in game 1 because he had a terrible shooting game, but I think it is all-advised long-term. Whether it's playoffs or not, I think defenses aren't going to let Ricky take wide-open threes.

Wide open threes in the NBA isn't similar to hitting free throws in the NBA simply be cuz wide open does really exist . Any shot where you have time to set your feet and get square up towards the basket should be considered open at this level . Rubio's issue is his form breaks down when there's any kind of defense being played on him . Which tells me he gets easily distracted and loses focus on his shot and form. NBA athletes are far to quick to think Ricky will ever get wide open left alone threes with any regularity. Guys are to long and recover to fast for the speed at which Rubio shoots his shot. I just don't see room for consistency with it.

I don't disagree with your statement that Ricky's form breaks down when he's defended...I think that's why he is not likely to ever be a big-time scorer. But the discussion here was whether leaving Ricky wide-open (I don't know is you saw the first game, but that's what they did) is a viable strategy. Ricky missed three shots in Game 1 where his feet were set and he was squared up, and my argument is there is substantial evidence that was an aberration.

No, Ricky will never be a big-time scorer because of the deficiency in his game that you cite. But most of us here think he doesn't have to be a scorer...if he defends, rebounds and assists like he does, he can be very successful with this team.

I
I don't think detractors expect him to be a big time scorer. The point I was making is that the defensive strategy doesnt have to be so drastic as to leave him completely alone . Simply play good close out d on the guy and he's gonna struggle with his shot.

OK, I get it, pork. And you're right, a quick PG can play a modified sag defense on Ricky and still adjust to impact his shot. The Croatia defense was ridiculous, though...sagging so far off that the defender never could have impacted Ricky's shot. I'm saying that won't work long-term. You and I may differ on this one, but I say that if a defender gives him a 10-foot cushion on his 3-pointer like the Croatian guy did, Ricky's going to make that set shot 50% of the time.

If we're relying on Ricky jumpers regardless of how open he is we're in trouble. No matter how you spin it (FT's/spot up/etc.) he's just not a good or reliable shooter.

I tend to agree with that sentiment. I actually prefer Ricky shooting off the dribble anyway (if he is going left). In instances where he is off the ball I would prefer to see him in secondary action to parked in the corner ala what Adelman or his Spanish coaches do with him. The reality is that Rubio is more suited for the NBA than Euroleagues and that has been apparent for some time (or should be unless you want to hate on Ricky). I hope Thibs tries to be a little more innovative with him, which leads me to the "games that count" topic.

I see often that every other team gets the benefit of the doubt that they will undoubtedly step their game up when it matters and when they have time to put the Wolves under a microscope yada yada but never a consideration that the Rubio or his coach may be able to counter such things. I guess what we see is always what we get.

I see often that every other team gets the benefit of the doubt that they will undoubtedly step their game up when it matters and when they have time to put the Wolves under a microscope yada yada but never a consideration that the Rubio or his coach may be able to counter such things. I guess what we see is always what we get.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

I see often that every other team gets the benefit of the doubt that they will undoubtedly step their game up when it matters and when they have time to put the Wolves under a microscope yada yada but never a consideration that the Rubio or his coach may be able to counter such things. I guess what we see is always what we get.

I don't think it's a reach at all. And I'm going with 30+ years of watching NBA basketball, as well as analysis from some of the most prominent coaches, players and writers in the game.

The Wolves have been woeful during Rubio's tenure here. (not blaming him for that) And in a league where every team struggles with the daily grind... overlooking opponents for part of a game or an entire game is actually fairly common. Nobody is creating special packages when preparing for a matchup with the Wolves. Why? Because they didn't need to. A lot of teams were still winning those games 60% - 90% of the time. The one season when the Wolves were in more close games with a chance at the playoffs? They failed. Miserably. Close losses was the reason.

In the playoffs, teams can game plan the same opponent for 2 weeks straight. Up to 7 games...

Sure, the counter is that the Wolves can do that too. But it's kind of like the lowest common denominator thing. Rubio has one glaring flaw in his game. That's infinitely easier to attack than it is for the Wolves to try to highlight what he does well.

In any event... I hope we get to see just how big of a problem it is (or isn't) this season.

Q12543 wrote:Ricky knocked down his 3's today for his second solid game in a row. He's now 2nd on the team in +/- to Gasol, despite playing nearly 10 fewer minutes per game. So basically he's just doing what he always does - makes the team better when he's on the court, whether his shot is going down or not.