alexftbl8181 wrote:You so sure as hell ask a starting player on your team to be able to do more then set picks, space the floor, and move the ball. Pretty sure you could find any Jeff Adrian off the scrap heap for 50 bucks to do that
....or Robbie Hummel. He was always a guy that knew how to play and where to be on the floor.
Can you now explain to me how KG and Prince are hurting the team on defense or are they being carried by the others in that department as well?
hurting the team? no. As good as people think they're looking? Hell no. Good enough on defense to offset their offense? Oh Hellll nooooo
Well, according to the numbers, they are a net positive. That's a fact through 4 games, no matter how much you don't like it. The question is whether it's sustainable. You obviously don't think so, but through the first four games it's an undeniable fact.
alexftbl8181 wrote:You so sure as hell ask a starting player on your team to be able to do more then set picks, space the floor, and move the ball. Pretty sure you could find any Jeff Adrian off the scrap heap for 50 bucks to do that
....or Robbie Hummel. He was always a guy that knew how to play and where to be on the floor.
Can you now explain to me how KG and Prince are hurting the team on defense or are they being carried by the others in that department as well?
hurting the team? no. As good as people think they're looking? Hell no. Good enough on defense to offset their offense? Oh Hellll nooooo
Well, according to the numbers, they are a net positive. That's a fact through 4 games, no matter how much you don't like it. The question is whether it's sustainable. You obviously don't think so, but through the first four games it's an undeniable fact.
alexftbl8181 wrote:You so sure as hell ask a starting player on your team to be able to do more then set picks, space the floor, and move the ball. Pretty sure you could find any Jeff Adrian off the scrap heap for 50 bucks to do that
....or Robbie Hummel. He was always a guy that knew how to play and where to be on the floor.
Can you now explain to me how KG and Prince are hurting the team on defense or are they being carried by the others in that department as well?
hurting the team? no. As good as people think they're looking? Hell no. Good enough on defense to offset their offense? Oh Hellll nooooo
Well, according to the numbers, they are a net positive. That's a fact through 4 games, no matter how much you don't like it. The question is whether it's sustainable. You obviously don't think so, but through the first four games it's an undeniable fact.
according to some numbers, not others
Through 4 games, when KG and Prince are on the floor, we outscore our opponents. I'd say that's a fairly relevant outcome, but perhaps you can explain why it doesn't matter.
Can you point to a different statistic that says we don't outscore our opponent when the two of them are on the floor?
Hmmm... Could we see Miller at PG and Zach at SG in Chicago?!?
Jerry Zgoda ?@JerryZgoda 48s48 seconds ago
Kevin Martin wasn't at practice today because of same family matter from Tues-Wed, might not rejoin team until Sunday in Atlanta
alexftbl8181 wrote:You so sure as hell ask a starting player on your team to be able to do more then set picks, space the floor, and move the ball. Pretty sure you could find any Jeff Adrian off the scrap heap for 50 bucks to do that
....or Robbie Hummel. He was always a guy that knew how to play and where to be on the floor.
Can you now explain to me how KG and Prince are hurting the team on defense or are they being carried by the others in that department as well?
hurting the team? no. As good as people think they're looking? Hell no. Good enough on defense to offset their offense? Oh Hellll nooooo
Well, according to the numbers, they are a net positive. That's a fact through 4 games, no matter how much you don't like it. The question is whether it's sustainable. You obviously don't think so, but through the first four games it's an undeniable fact.
according to some numbers, not others
Through 4 games, when KG and Prince are on the floor, we outscore our opponents. I'd say that's a fairly relevant outcome, but perhaps you can explain why it doesn't matter.
Can you point to a different statistic that says we don't outscore our opponent when the two of them are on the floor?
Using their plus/minus stats to prove their worth is the biggest bullshit stretch on this board. They score a combined 4 points a game. Their usage is at about 15% combined. They're getting carried hard core when they are out on the court by Rubio and Towns. Everything except plus/minus says they are playing terrible this year. Why does 1 stat that is team based trump every other stat there is? That's just a horrible use of statistics to prove a point. Rubio is almost at a full win share (0.9) in 4 games where we won 2 of those games (the statistical equivalent of him almost winning 1 of our two wins by himself). Towns is at .5. KG and Prince...a rounded up 0.1 each (which is in line with Dieng and Payne). Payne surpassed KG's WS/48 in his 17 minutes this year over KG's 63. 1 stat doesn't trump all. They deserve 15% credit for their plus/minus numbers because that's all they are giving the rest of the team. The rest is credited to the guys carrying their corpses on a nightly basis. Ask yourself this. If they are so damn good/valuable because of their plus/minus, why doesn't Sam close out games with his starting 5? Statistically they aren't going to lose him the game if they have a lead and their plus/minus is so big they theoretically could come back from a big deficit pretty easily for come from behind victories as well. Is he just a fucking moron or does he see what every other stat says and goes with a different option because he knows they'd struggle to score and get stops to close out games? Plus/minus is a terrible stat to use if everything else is bad.
Khans, First off, why so angry? You and Alex should go get shakes and fries together at the Crabby Shack.
Similar to Hicks, you cite box score-oriented stats which do very little to capture a person's defensive impact. We know they aren't out there to score points or even to close out games. Mitchell has made it abundantly clear that he wants these guys to help set the tone defensively to begin halves and then step aside and let others take over.
Based on the numbers, it appears to me that Mitchell's plan with the starting unit - and specifically KG and Prince - is working.....so far. I'm not saying they are the best players on the team. I'm not saying they should close out games. Settle down.
Too much attention on individual stats for just being 4 games into the season. Pay attention to the bigger picture. The bigger picture says Sam wants Rubio, Wiggins and Towns to establish themselves as "our big 3". Those three did not come through against Miami, the only game where you can say "the other team was clearly superior that night". The bench unit is a work in progress. I would expect tweaks there before I would expect tweaks to the starting lineup.
alexftbl8181 wrote:You so sure as hell ask a starting player on your team to be able to do more then set picks, space the floor, and move the ball. Pretty sure you could find any Jeff Adrian off the scrap heap for 50 bucks to do that
....or Robbie Hummel. He was always a guy that knew how to play and where to be on the floor.
Can you now explain to me how KG and Prince are hurting the team on defense or are they being carried by the others in that department as well?
hurting the team? no. As good as people think they're looking? Hell no. Good enough on defense to offset their offense? Oh Hellll nooooo
Well, according to the numbers, they are a net positive. That's a fact through 4 games, no matter how much you don't like it. The question is whether it's sustainable. You obviously don't think so, but through the first four games it's an undeniable fact.
according to some numbers, not others
Through 4 games, when KG and Prince are on the floor, we outscore our opponents. I'd say that's a fairly relevant outcome, but perhaps you can explain why it doesn't matter.
Can you point to a different statistic that says we don't outscore our opponent when the two of them are on the floor?
Using their plus/minus stats to prove their worth is the biggest bullshit stretch on this board. They score a combined 4 points a game. Their usage is at about 15% combined. They're getting carried hard core when they are out on the court by Rubio and Towns. Everything except plus/minus says they are playing terrible this year. Why does 1 stat that is team based trump every other stat there is? That's just a horrible use of statistics to prove a point. Rubio is almost at a full win share (0.9) in 4 games where we won 2 of those games (the statistical equivalent of him almost winning 1 of our two wins by himself). Towns is at .5. KG and Prince...a rounded up 0.1 each (which is in line with Dieng and Payne). Payne surpassed KG's WS/48 in his 17 minutes this year over KG's 63. 1 stat doesn't trump all. They deserve 15% credit for their plus/minus numbers because that's all they are giving the rest of the team. The rest is credited to the guys carrying their corpses on a nightly basis. Ask yourself this. If they are so damn good/valuable because of their plus/minus, why doesn't Sam close out games with his starting 5? Statistically they aren't going to lose him the game if they have a lead and their plus/minus is so big they theoretically could come back from a big deficit pretty easily for come from behind victories as well. Is he just a fucking moron or does he see what every other stat says and goes with a different option because he knows they'd struggle to score and get stops to close out games? Plus/minus is a terrible stat to use if everything else is bad.
Khans asks "why does 1 stat that is team based trump every other stat there is"? I love stats because they provide insights into individual aspects of a players' game. But ultimately there is only one stat that matters, and that is team +/- at the end of every game. If you are plus, you win...if you are minus, you lose. It's that simple. So, that is why this team-based stat trumps every other stat there is. And why how individual players contribute to this +/- is so meaningful.
I fully admit that +/- can be misused in a very limited sample size. Damjan Rudez could play garbage minutes with a teammate who is making everything against a team that is missing everything, and look like a great player with his +/-. Four games is also still a small sample size, and KG and Prince may drop from their lofty positions as the season progresses. But I would argue that the way Sam is using the two vets makes it very easy to analyze their +/-. They are playing 15-20 minutes at the start of halves almost exclusively against the opponents' starters. And the fact that they are dramatically winning the +/- battle against the other teams' starters is very meaningful. I hear a lot of anger directed toward Sam for starting halves with KG and Tay, but I have yet to hear a legitimate numerically-based argument as to why his starting lineup isn't effective.
This one fact is indisputable...when KG and Tay are on the court, we outscore our opponent more than with any other player. How can that not be a good thing?
60WinTim wrote:Hmmm... Could we see Miller at PG and Zach at SG in Chicago?!?
Jerry Zgoda ?@JerryZgoda 48s48 seconds ago
Kevin Martin wasn't at practice today because of same family matter from Tues-Wed, might not rejoin team until Sunday in Atlanta
Yeah, I noticed a couple days ago that Kevin was missing practices for a family matter. Not good that he is still out 5 days later. The wolves have already had one family tragedy this year, and another one on the heels of Flip's death would be too much to take. Let's hope this is minor, but missing so many days doesn't sound good.
But in terms of basketball, this is the kind of incident that has to force Sam's hand. LaVine logically becomes the backup SG and Jones is activated for the first time, and either he or Miller gets backup PG minutes...most likely Miller. The Bulls are 10-point favorites, so if this one gets out of hand, Tyus is likely to see his first action.
alexftbl8181 wrote:You so sure as hell ask a starting player on your team to be able to do more then set picks, space the floor, and move the ball. Pretty sure you could find any Jeff Adrian off the scrap heap for 50 bucks to do that
....or Robbie Hummel. He was always a guy that knew how to play and where to be on the floor.
Can you now explain to me how KG and Prince are hurting the team on defense or are they being carried by the others in that department as well?
hurting the team? no. As good as people think they're looking? Hell no. Good enough on defense to offset their offense? Oh Hellll nooooo
Well, according to the numbers, they are a net positive. That's a fact through 4 games, no matter how much you don't like it. The question is whether it's sustainable. You obviously don't think so, but through the first four games it's an undeniable fact.
according to some numbers, not others
Through 4 games, when KG and Prince are on the floor, we outscore our opponents. I'd say that's a fairly relevant outcome, but perhaps you can explain why it doesn't matter.
Can you point to a different statistic that says we don't outscore our opponent when the two of them are on the floor?
Using their plus/minus stats to prove their worth is the biggest bullshit stretch on this board. They score a combined 4 points a game. Their usage is at about 15% combined. They're getting carried hard core when they are out on the court by Rubio and Towns. Everything except plus/minus says they are playing terrible this year. Why does 1 stat that is team based trump every other stat there is? That's just a horrible use of statistics to prove a point. Rubio is almost at a full win share (0.9) in 4 games where we won 2 of those games (the statistical equivalent of him almost winning 1 of our two wins by himself). Towns is at .5. KG and Prince...a rounded up 0.1 each (which is in line with Dieng and Payne). Payne surpassed KG's WS/48 in his 17 minutes this year over KG's 63. 1 stat doesn't trump all. They deserve 15% credit for their plus/minus numbers because that's all they are giving the rest of the team. The rest is credited to the guys carrying their corpses on a nightly basis. Ask yourself this. If they are so damn good/valuable because of their plus/minus, why doesn't Sam close out games with his starting 5? Statistically they aren't going to lose him the game if they have a lead and their plus/minus is so big they theoretically could come back from a big deficit pretty easily for come from behind victories as well. Is he just a fucking moron or does he see what every other stat says and goes with a different option because he knows they'd struggle to score and get stops to close out games? Plus/minus is a terrible stat to use if everything else is bad.
Khans asks "why does 1 stat that is team based trump every other stat there is"? I love stats because they provide insights into individual aspects of a players' game. But ultimately there is only one stat that matters, and that is team +/- at the end of every game. If you are plus, you win...if you are minus, you lose. It's that simple. So, that is why this team-based stat trumps every other stat there is. And why how individual players contribute to this +/- is so meaningful.
I fully admit that +/- can be misused in a very limited sample size. Damjan Rudez could play garbage minutes with a teammate who is making everything against a team that is missing everything, and look like a great player with his +/-. Four games is also still a small sample size, and KG and Prince may drop from their lofty positions as the season progresses. But I would argue that the way Sam is using the two vets makes it very easy to analyze their +/-. They are playing 15-20 minutes at the start of halves almost exclusively against the opponents' starters. And the fact that they are dramatically winning the +/- battle against the other teams' starters is very meaningful. I hear a lot of anger directed toward Sam for starting halves with KG and Tay, but I have yet to hear a legitimate numerically-based argument as to why his starting lineup isn't effective.
This one fact is indisputable...when KG and Tay are on the court, we outscore our opponent more than with any other player. How can that not be a good thing?
Robbie was almost always positive in plus/minus yet we still lost 66 games. That's why plus/minus actually isn't a good stat. There are countless examples of guys with negative plus/minuses in wins and positive plus/minuses in losses. The game is about scoring more than your opponent. They score 4 points combined. Are you telling me they give up 4 points or less to their direct opponents because that is literally the only way they earn their plus/minus numbers otherwise it is almost 100% because of who they play with that they have those numbers? There's way too much noise in plus/minus. Basketball-reference tells a much different story with their offensive and defensive ratings and 82games will tell us at the end of the month as well how accurate these plus/minus stats are for our starting 5 man unit versus other possibilities we've rolled out.
