Hicks123 wrote:Man, the Okogie love is getting crazy! You would think this guy is posted regular 20-10 stats the way he is discussed around here. I get the optimism, as he has shown some hustle and energy, but the guy is shooting 37% and averaging just over 2 rpg the past 5 games.
I guess the thing that gets me most with this guy is everybody getting on Thibs for not utilizing him more at the end of a couple games. While his calling card is defense in the future, my guess is that he (like other rookies) is fairly undisciplined at times, and Thibs probably trusts other guys with a longer track records in specific situations. I think Okogie has a chance to be that guy closing games as a defender, but that may not be deserved just yet.
Actually, Okogie is averaging 2.8 rebounds per game in his last five games. That's not "just over three." :) That's essentially 3 per game. That's 5 boards per game on a 35-minute per game basis. Not bad. His shooting remains a work in progress. His percentage would be much higher is his perimeter shots were limited primarily to catch-and-shoot jumpers.
I agree Okogie shouldn't necessarily be closing games. I thought he should have stayed on the floor the other night against the Pelicans because of how well he was playing that game and how well the team performed when he was on the floor. That doesn't necessarily mean he should be out there to close games all the time. Thibodeau's inflexibility and failure to adapt to the situation was my beef regarding the use of Okogie in that game. It's a common problem with Thibodeau's coaching - not limited to Okogie.
I do think Thibodeau should make sure Okogie is a major part of the rotation and I think his minutes should be in the 20-25 minute range, going up from there if his shooting improves. My thinking is two-fold. First, Okogie makes the team better when he's on the floor. You have to watch him play game in and game out to see that impact, which stems from his hustle, disruptive defense, constant movement, high energy and really good instincts. He makes amazingly good decisions for a rookie and never stalls the ball. He makes quick decisions and has a great nose for the ball. He's already our best player at getting to loose balls. Second, he needs more PT to further his development. A lot of fans on this board criticize the Wolves for poor player development. The key to player development is time on the court. There's no escaping that fact. If we want to see player development on this team, then talented rookies like Okogie need more playing time than they would otherwise get based on their current stats if they were seasoned vets. We can't have it both ways, complaining about the lack of player development but not wanting to live with the growing pains that rookies exhibit on the court.
I love Derrick Rose and I can see playing Teague and Rose together. But neither one is the future of this team. And it's all about the future. I'd like to see the Wolves make the playoffs this season, but that's a tall order given the strength of the West and the Wolves' slow start. In any event, making the playoffs this season would mean a 7th or 8th seed and quick first-round exit. I'm not suggesting the Wolves tank the season. But while attempting to win every game, the Wolves have to keep one eye fixed towards the future. In my view, that means more playing time for Okogie and Saric than might otherwise be warranted. It means running the offense more through KAT. It means learning how to use Wiggins more effectively given his terrible ball-handling skills. It means more playing time for Tyus so he can play through and hopefully get out of his current funk and pick up where he left off late last season. It even means more minutes for Gorgui to see how much value we can get out of his fairly big still long-term contract.
Three years from now, Teague, Rose and Gibson will be gone. The Wolves organization, top to bottom, including the head coach, needs to keep that in mind going forward.
I think Rose could end up being part of this organization for more than 3 years and that actually being a good thing. I think one good way of getting a guy like Okogie on the floor is resting a guy like Rose to try and keep him healthy. Tyus can get some additional minutes as well.
One thing it's easy to forget is that there have been multiple injuries Butler being out 2 new players being added etc. it's not like there have been a super set group for Thibs to have worked with. That is part of the reason for the Wolves record not just the Butler thing. Injuries have had some positives in getting Okogie and even Rose some opportunity that they would not have had otherwise.
As I think about it, I think you're right that Rose could be here more than 3 years. And I agree with you that would be a good thing. He clearly has a lot of game left and he's ba 30 years old. If his minutes are limited, I could see him contributing positively to this team for the next 3-5 years. I love his attitude. He's what I'd call a true leader by example. Thibodeau nailed what leadership is all about when he described leaders as those who unite and inspire. I think Rose does both. But I'd still bet that Rose isn't here three years from now.
Rose not being here 3 years from now is a good bet no doubt. I guess my point was that there could be reason to invest some in him to some extent. He could be part of the future. I feel like even Taj could be here longer if he decided to take a cheap deal to come back. Teague...I doubt he will be here past his contract. the problem is Teague with his faults is a good player and will need to play when Rose is injured or needs to rest. I'm with Q in the idea this team should be looking at trying to win games. Even Q isn't against a guy like Okogie getting some run while doing so. :)
Back to Rose...its way to early and all that and things could go very wrong becasue of injury or soemthign else, but if the way he has carried himself is any indication of what he can do on this team he might be part of the solution as a guy that can actually lead this team so something higher. Note there was a report of Glen Taylor pointing to Rose and calling him a leader. Interesting stuff.
Monster - I'm I'm total agreement with you on this. I agree that there is good reason to invest in Rose now, both in playing time and perhaps a new contract next summer. And I also agree we should definitely try to win every game we play. Rose fits well in the sense that his effectiveness necessarily requires limiting his minutes. My main point is that minutes not going to Rose should be allocated to Okogie or perhaps Tyus. You're right that Teague is the least likely of the three I mentioned to be here three years from now. Therefore, I think it's Teague's minutes that should ramp down this season. An additional benefit of doing so is that it might make Teague more likely to opt out of the last year of his contract, freeing up $19 million in cap space to get someone who actually would be a fit for the longer term.
Hicks123 wrote:Man, the Okogie love is getting crazy! You would think this guy is posted regular 20-10 stats the way he is discussed around here. I get the optimism, as he has shown some hustle and energy, but the guy is shooting 37% and averaging just over 2 rpg the past 5 games.
I guess the thing that gets me most with this guy is everybody getting on Thibs for not utilizing him more at the end of a couple games. While his calling card is defense in the future, my guess is that he (like other rookies) is fairly undisciplined at times, and Thibs probably trusts other guys with a longer track records in specific situations. I think Okogie has a chance to be that guy closing games as a defender, but that may not be deserved just yet.
Actually, Okogie is averaging 2.8 rebounds per game in his last five games. That's not "just over three." :) That's essentially 3 per game. That's 5 boards per game on a 35-minute per game basis. Not bad. His shooting remains a work in progress. His percentage would be much higher is his perimeter shots were limited primarily to catch-and-shoot jumpers.
I agree Okogie shouldn't necessarily be closing games. I thought he should have stayed on the floor the other night against the Pelicans because of how well he was playing that game and how well the team performed when he was on the floor. That doesn't necessarily mean he should be out there to close games all the time. Thibodeau's inflexibility and failure to adapt to the situation was my beef regarding the use of Okogie in that game. It's a common problem with Thibodeau's coaching - not limited to Okogie.
I do think Thibodeau should make sure Okogie is a major part of the rotation and I think his minutes should be in the 20-25 minute range, going up from there if his shooting improves. My thinking is two-fold. First, Okogie makes the team better when he's on the floor. You have to watch him play game in and game out to see that impact, which stems from his hustle, disruptive defense, constant movement, high energy and really good instincts. He makes amazingly good decisions for a rookie and never stalls the ball. He makes quick decisions and has a great nose for the ball. He's already our best player at getting to loose balls. Second, he needs more PT to further his development. A lot of fans on this board criticize the Wolves for poor player development. The key to player development is time on the court. There's no escaping that fact. If we want to see player development on this team, then talented rookies like Okogie need more playing time than they would otherwise get based on their current stats if they were seasoned vets. We can't have it both ways, complaining about the lack of player development but not wanting to live with the growing pains that rookies exhibit on the court.
I love Derrick Rose and I can see playing Teague and Rose together. But neither one is the future of this team. And it's all about the future. I'd like to see the Wolves make the playoffs this season, but that's a tall order given the strength of the West and the Wolves' slow start. In any event, making the playoffs this season would mean a 7th or 8th seed and quick first-round exit. I'm not suggesting the Wolves tank the season. But while attempting to win every game, the Wolves have to keep one eye fixed towards the future. In my view, that means more playing time for Okogie and Saric than might otherwise be warranted. It means running the offense more through KAT. It means learning how to use Wiggins more effectively given his terrible ball-handling skills. It means more playing time for Tyus so he can play through and hopefully get out of his current funk and pick up where he left off late last season. It even means more minutes for Gorgui to see how much value we can get out of his fairly big still long-term contract.
Three years from now, Teague, Rose and Gibson will be gone. The Wolves organization, top to bottom, including the head coach, needs to keep that in mind going forward.
I think Rose could end up being part of this organization for more than 3 years and that actually being a good thing. I think one good way of getting a guy like Okogie on the floor is resting a guy like Rose to try and keep him healthy. Tyus can get some additional minutes as well.
One thing it's easy to forget is that there have been multiple injuries Butler being out 2 new players being added etc. it's not like there have been a super set group for Thibs to have worked with. That is part of the reason for the Wolves record not just the Butler thing. Injuries have had some positives in getting Okogie and even Rose some opportunity that they would not have had otherwise.
As I think about it, I think you're right that Rose could be here more than 3 years. And I agree with you that would be a good thing. He clearly has a lot of game left and he's ba 30 years old. If his minutes are limited, I could see him contributing positively to this team for the next 3-5 years. I love his attitude. He's what I'd call a true leader by example. Thibodeau nailed what leadership is all about when he described leaders as those who unite and inspire. I think Rose does both. But I'd still bet that Rose isn't here three years from now.
Rose not being here 3 years from now is a good bet no doubt. I guess my point was that there could be reason to invest some in him to some extent. He could be part of the future. I feel like even Taj could be here longer if he decided to take a cheap deal to come back. Teague...I doubt he will be here past his contract. the problem is Teague with his faults is a good player and will need to play when Rose is injured or needs to rest. I'm with Q in the idea this team should be looking at trying to win games. Even Q isn't against a guy like Okogie getting some run while doing so. :)
Back to Rose...its way to early and all that and things could go very wrong becasue of injury or soemthign else, but if the way he has carried himself is any indication of what he can do on this team he might be part of the solution as a guy that can actually lead this team so something higher. Note there was a report of Glen Taylor pointing to Rose and calling him a leader. Interesting stuff.
Monster - I'm I'm total agreement with you on this. I agree that there is good reason to invest in Rose now, both in playing time and perhaps a new contract next summer. And I also agree we should definitely try to win every game we play. Rose fits well in the sense that his effectiveness necessarily requires limiting his minutes. My main point is that minutes not going to Rose should be allocated to Okogie or perhaps Tyus. You're right that Teague is the least likely of the three I mentioned to be here three years from now. Therefore, I think it's Teague's minutes that should ramp down this season. An additional benefit of doing so is that it might make Teague more likely to opt out of the last year of his contract, freeing up $19 million in cap space to get someone who actually would be a fit for the longer term.
Well Lip....we know one of Thibs amazing skills is getting guys to opt out of their deals to take money for a better "fit". =)
We should absolutely not count on Rose being a part of this team's future due simply to the fact he can't stay healthy. Heck, this is by far one of his healthiest stints of play and he still misses games. Anything we get from him is a luxury at this point.
Without a play making wing going forward and with Teague's opt out clause and Rose's unreliability, it actually puts a spotlight on the PG position after this season. I love Tyus, but he has not proven that he can put the ball in the cup when a bucket is needed. Any ideas? I know Doper loves Kemba...could we even afford him?
Q12543 wrote:We should absolutely not count on Rose being a part of this team's future due simply to the fact he can't stay healthy. Heck, this is by far one of his healthiest stints of play and he still misses games. Anything we get from him is a luxury at this point.
Without a play making wing going forward and with Teague's opt out clause and Rose's unreliability, it actually puts a spotlight on the PG position after this season. I love Tyus, but he has not proven that he can put the ball in the cup when a bucket is needed. Any ideas? I know Doper loves Kemba...could we even afford him?
Q I'm not "counting" on Rose being a guy that's being around but the payoff is worth a possible investment as is he COULD be here for a while as a pretty useful player. Nobody is betting on it.
Q12543 wrote:We should absolutely not count on Rose being a part of this team's future due simply to the fact he can't stay healthy. Heck, this is by far one of his healthiest stints of play and he still misses games. Anything we get from him is a luxury at this point.
Without a play making wing going forward and with Teague's opt out clause and Rose's unreliability, it actually puts a spotlight on the PG position after this season. I love Tyus, but he has not proven that he can put the ball in the cup when a bucket is needed. Any ideas? I know Doper loves Kemba...could we even afford him?
Q I'm not "counting" on Rose being a guy that's being around but the payoff is worth a possible investment as is he COULD be here for a while as a pretty useful player. Nobody is betting on it.
Teague may end up being our best option! I love Ricky Rubio, but without three other guys to score a bunch (like Love-Martin-Pek or KAT-Wiggins-Butler) we actually need our PG to carry more of a load. I'm really hoping the improved spacing Saric and Covington bring lead to better results for Teague.
Well, with everyone healthy tonight we got at least a feel for what Thibs is thinking...Rose is a SG, and Gorgui is his choice to back up KAT. And since Thibs prefers a 9-man rotation, Josh and Tolliver are left out. Like many others, I would like to see some minutes for Josh, but you have to admit Thibs' rotations worked out great tonight. Rose is going to miss some games, and perhaps Teague and Wig too...Josh will get plenty of time to develop when those guys are hurt or resting.
I pray Thibs hasn't made up his mind not to play Okogie and Tolliver.
Given Okogie's performance so far, he's earned it. It's not the stats, its the infectious energy plays he makes, especially on the defensive end, that inspire the rest of the team to play harder. Plus, he can fit at the 3 or 2, and I think his D is nice to have next to Teague, Rose, or Tyus running point. As long as the opponent isn't too long, I'm ready to say Okogie should be the guy we try putting on the other team's best ballhandling scorer.
I also like what Tolliver brings. He's a bit redundant now with Covington, but he's still the kind of player modern NBA teams are built for. A long wing/forward who defends hard and shoots 3s accurately. Covington, Tolliver, Saric all fit the bill, and I bet would actually make it possible for Thibs to play switching defense--if he would ever consider it. Thibs signed Tolliver so he must be somewhat invested in him. I hope.
Finally, what was up with Thibs sticking with the starters for most of the last 4 minutes AFTER the Blazers put in their bench? It's not just kind of classless, it's counterproductive. 1) It would give guys like the two above some minutes to play and develop on court chemistry. 2) KBD would get to play (and he should probably be playing in the G League given our new forward depth. 3) Just seeing those three play would be exciting and probably get the crowd to cheer more to end the game. 4) It would give the starters an earned rest. 5) It would end the injury risk for the starters for the rest of the game, barring some unfortunate accident on the bench.
I don't think we should make any decisions based on Rose, which means we should absolutely not trade Tyus. We know that if Teague gets hurt, Tyus can step in and competently run the point in a caretaker role and mostly mistake free. Hopefully he gets his shot to start falling soon.
I'm kinda with LST on the Okogie issue....hard to argue with the results. If our defense starts to falter and we're losing games, then it becomes a different issue. In terms of development, Okogie doesn't need to play all 82 games at 20 minutes per for him to successfully develop this year. He's already made some nice strides and I expect he will eventually be called upon again. If literally anyone at PG/SG/SF get hurt, he's next man up.
(still would have loved to see him play, just hard for me to get angry at Thibs after a decisive win like that).
