Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:5 years in and we're still hoping, waiting, praying and hoping some more against hope... for Andrew Wiggins.

In an era of NBA basketball where guys are moving year after year from team to team... Wolves fans are stuck watching the new variations of trying to reach and get the most out of the exact same version of Andrew Wiggins.

There's some irony here. Some really shitty, mean-spirited and cruel irony.



[Note: Considering that Steph Curry is now the longest tenured player in the league on his original team... just how many guys have been on the team that drafted them longer than Andrew Wiggins?]

Gorgui Dieng is one...

Ha. Good point.

So while Milwaukee has guys like Giannis/Middleton and Portland has McCollum/Lillard and GSW has Curry/Thompson/Green... the Wolves have Wiggins and Dieng.

Cool.

Another fun one...Udonis Haslem was the longest tenured guy with one team during last season right? He was undrafted.

One of the things that really pissed me off with Thibs is that he was so damn reliant on high pick and roll and isolation basketball when he had one of the most gifted offensive big man to come along in a generation. The offense should 100% revolve around KAT. That doesn't mean he puts up 30+ shots a game, but he should be touching the ball nearly every time down the floor. Low post, high post, top of the key, etc. He may not be at Jokic's level as a passer, but I'm convinced he could easily average 4-5+ assists per game and 25 PPG. Running offensive sets through a big man is nothing new - it's been done for decades, from Pete Carrill's Princeton Offense to Adelman's Corner Offense.

Now, there are still times where a perimeter player is left with no other option but to get a shot up and it's in those situations where Wiggins, regrettably, is our best option since Covington and Okogie are probably even worse in iso-situations. So I agree with Kekgeek that Wiggins will still find himself in situations where he has to create a shot because of shot-clock situations. But to employ him as a "point-forward" as a main strategy for our offense is foolishness. Been there, done that.

If you're defending us, all you'd have to do is have your best defender pick up Wig at half court, force a trap and get the turnover.

However it does sound like a great tanking strategy...

Wiggins has averaged only 2.1 turnovers a game in his career and he's had the ball in his hands for a lot of it. The narrative that if he is dribbling it's a turnover is just getting old. When he had a usage of 29 two years ago he still only averaged 2.3 turnovers a game with a sub 10% turnover rate. Unless you're throwing Kawhi at him it's overblown how much he turns the ball over. Towns is at 2.5 career turnovers a game with a career high 3.1 last year and a 13.7 turnover rate for comparison with his 28.9 usage rate. Everything just gets blown to the 10th degree of bad when talking about Wiggins.

Some of Wig's handle issues get credited as missed shots instead of turnovers when he gets in the lane. But yes, things get blown out of proportion when talking about Wig. Fanboys are going to remember he was a #1 overall pick and the fact he got paid, and that is going to color the narrative no matter what. He's never going to live up to his draft position or contract. But he isn't responsible for where he was drafted, nor the contract he got. The best coaches put their players in the best possible position to succeed, and that's what Ryan needs to do with Wig and every player on the team. I still think Wig can become a net positive, but it's going to take a collective effort from the player and coaching staff to make it happen. We should all hope it does.

khans2k5 wrote:Wiggins has averaged only 2.1 turnovers a game in his career and he's had the ball in his hands for a lot of it. The narrative that if he is dribbling it's a turnover is just getting old. When he had a usage of 29 two years ago he still only averaged 2.3 turnovers a game with a sub 10% turnover rate. Unless you're throwing Kawhi at him it's overblown how much he turns the ball over. Towns is at 2.5 career turnovers a game with a career high 3.1 last year and a 13.7 turnover rate for comparison with his 28.9 usage rate. Everything just gets blown to the 10th degree of bad when talking about Wiggins.

Yeah, the sheer number of TOs really hasn't been a huge issue. Maybe it has something to do with pedestrian or even pretty poor assist numbers? His handle isn't really leading to anything consistently... other than shot attempts.

And I don't know if criticism is always at the 10th degree. Personally, I think a lot of Wiggins criticism is warranted... mainly because he's shown no tangible signs of progress or improvement. And that's fine for most players entering their 6th year, it's actually sort of expected. Unfortunately, it sucks for the Wolves because they only paid him because they expected improvement. We all heard the "but wait... he's still young."

Well, we waited. And waited. And he's even worse. So the frustration has had time to build and bubble.

That's on ownership/management. But it's always easier for fans to rip the players than the random suits on the sidelines.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Some of Wig's handle issues get credited as missed shots instead of turnovers when he gets in the lane. But yes, things get blown out of proportion when talking about Wig. Fanboys are going to remember he was a #1 overall pick and the fact he got paid, and that is going to color the narrative no matter what. He's never going to live up to his draft position or contract. But he isn't responsible for where he was drafted, nor the contract he got. The best coaches put their players in the best possible position to succeed, and that's what Ryan needs to do with Wig and every player on the team. I still think Wig can become a net positive, but it's going to take a collective effort from the player and coaching staff to make it happen. We should all hope it does.

I agree, Cool. Wiggins didn't force Cleveland to take him #1 or force the Wolves to trade for him. In fact, trading for Wiggins was the right thing for Flip to do at the time. Wiggins didn't force Thibodeau to give him a max contract. And Wiggins isn't the guy who's been drawing up the plays that consistently amplify his weaknesses while failing to optimize his strengths.

You've defended Wiggins over the years, but you've been honest about his weaknesses as well. While some others might be in denial about his poor ballhandling, you've recognized the obvious in that regard. Has the criticism of Wiggins been harsh at times? Yes, myself included, but it's an understandable reaction of a justifiably frustrated fan base that sees Andrew's immense talent, but then watches him fail to progress beyond his rookie-of-the-year season. That's added to the frustration of watching one bad front office decision after another. Again, as you've said repeatedly, our head coaches haven't made the best use of Wiggins. And that's why, like you, I still have hope that Andrew can become a net positive.

As fans, we really have to expect more from our team's front office and coaches. Our front office needs to do a much better job than previous regimes of evaluating and acquiring talent. But our coaching staff also needs to do a much better job of developing and using the talent we have. Let's hope that the Rosas regime and the coaching staff Rosas has assembled around Ryan Saunders finally deliver on those things.

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Some of Wig's handle issues get credited as missed shots instead of turnovers when he gets in the lane. But yes, things get blown out of proportion when talking about Wig. Fanboys are going to remember he was a #1 overall pick and the fact he got paid, and that is going to color the narrative no matter what. He's never going to live up to his draft position or contract. But he isn't responsible for where he was drafted, nor the contract he got. The best coaches put their players in the best possible position to succeed, and that's what Ryan needs to do with Wig and every player on the team. I still think Wig can become a net positive, but it's going to take a collective effort from the player and coaching staff to make it happen. We should all hope it does.

I agree, Cool. Wiggins didn't force Cleveland to take him #1 or force the Wolves to trade for him. In fact, trading for Wiggins was the right thing for Flip to do at the time. Wiggins didn't force Thibodeau to give him a max contract. And Wiggins isn't the guy who's been drawing up the plays that consistently amplify his weaknesses while failing to optimize his strengths.

You've defended Wiggins over the years, but you've been honest about his weaknesses as well. While some others might be in denial about his poor ballhandling, you've recognized the obvious in that regard. Has the criticism of Wiggins been harsh at times? Yes, myself included, but it's an understandable reaction of a justifiably frustrated fan base that sees Andrew's immense talent, but then watches him fail to progress beyond his rookie-of-the-year season. That's added to the frustration of watching one bad front office decision after another. Again, as you've said repeatedly, our head coaches haven't made the best use of Wiggins. And that's why, like you, I still have hope that Andrew can become a net positive.

As fans, we really have to expect more from our team's front office and coaches. Our front office needs to do a much better job than previous regimes of evaluating and acquiring talent. But our coaching staff also needs to do a much better job of developing and using the talent we have. Let's hope that the Rosas regime and the coaching staff Rosas has assembled around Ryan Saunders finally deliver on those things.

Sometimes, it only takes a 4th coach to figure out where 3 other coaches have largely failed?

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Some of Wig's handle issues get credited as missed shots instead of turnovers when he gets in the lane. But yes, things get blown out of proportion when talking about Wig. Fanboys are going to remember he was a #1 overall pick and the fact he got paid, and that is going to color the narrative no matter what. He's never going to live up to his draft position or contract. But he isn't responsible for where he was drafted, nor the contract he got. The best coaches put their players in the best possible position to succeed, and that's what Ryan needs to do with Wig and every player on the team. I still think Wig can become a net positive, but it's going to take a collective effort from the player and coaching staff to make it happen. We should all hope it does.

I agree, Cool. Wiggins didn't force Cleveland to take him #1 or force the Wolves to trade for him. In fact, trading for Wiggins was the right thing for Flip to do at the time. Wiggins didn't force Thibodeau to give him a max contract. And Wiggins isn't the guy who's been drawing up the plays that consistently amplify his weaknesses while failing to optimize his strengths.

You've defended Wiggins over the years, but you've been honest about his weaknesses as well. While some others might be in denial about his poor ballhandling, you've recognized the obvious in that regard. Has the criticism of Wiggins been harsh at times? Yes, myself included, but it's an understandable reaction of a justifiably frustrated fan base that sees Andrew's immense talent, but then watches him fail to progress beyond his rookie-of-the-year season. That's added to the frustration of watching one bad front office decision after another. Again, as you've said repeatedly, our head coaches haven't made the best use of Wiggins. And that's why, like you, I still have hope that Andrew can become a net positive.

As fans, we really have to expect more from our team's front office and coaches. Our front office needs to do a much better job than previous regimes of evaluating and acquiring talent. But our coaching staff also needs to do a much better job of developing and using the talent we have. Let's hope that the Rosas regime and the coaching staff Rosas has assembled around Ryan Saunders finally deliver on those things.

Sometimes, it only takes a 4th coach to figure out where 3 other coaches have largely failed?

I'm optimistic the 5th coach will find Wiggins magic number!

Wiggins needs to make shots, same as always. He makes shots he's good. If he continues to be a below league average shooter, it will be hard for him to contribute to Winning basketball. I remain optimistic that many players have improved their offensive efficiency as their careers have progressed. Wiggins has started to slowly improve some of his offensive choices independently. I am hoping the coaching staff takes more drastic measures to adapt his decision making in shot selection. There are still other issues and areas of improvement for Wiggins, but combining good coaching and hoping for more consistent shooting seems like the most logical and probable route for maximizing Wiggins.