Kyrie trade discussion

[Q-is-here]

Kyrie is only under team control for one more year, with a player option for the following season. One way to look at it is trading Randle for a one-year rental that might help you get over the top, and then re-signing a healthy Donte going forward. Or whatever makes the most sense depending on how the Kyrie experiment works out.

There are all sorts of possibilities. The most important one, besides re-signing Ayo, is moving off Randle and replacing his playmaking with someone else, preferably a guard. Kyrie fits that bill.

Isn't DDV somewhat valuable in the trade market as a mid-level expiring salary that can be used in a trade and perhaps aggregated with someone like Randle?

I don't get the sense we'll ever go back to DDV as our starting "point guard" next to Ant even though they actually were a good pair together. If he sticks around it will most likely be him coming off the bench once he's healthy and either Ayo or [insert Point Guard we trade for] starting.

[60WinTim]

Kyrie is only under team control for one more year, with a player option for the following season. One way to look at it is trading Randle for a one-year rental that might help you get over the top, and then re-signing a healthy Donte going forward. Or whatever makes the most sense depending on how the Kyrie experiment works out.

There are all sorts of possibilities. The most important one, besides re-signing Ayo, is moving off Randle and replacing his playmaking with someone else, preferably a guard. Kyrie fits that bill.

Isn't DDV somewhat valuable in the trade market as a mid-level expiring salary that can be used in a trade and perhaps aggregated with someone like Randle?

I don't get the sense we'll ever go back to DDV as our starting "point guard" next to Ant even though they actually were a good pair together. If he sticks around it will most likely be him coming off the bench once he's healthy and either Ayo or [insert Point Guard we trade for] starting.

Well, yeah, from a strictly basketball and financial perspective, Donte ought to be out the door. But from a human side, it sure seems DAMN COLD to move him!

I guess a recent podcast I watched put me on the fence about moving off Donte. But if the goal is winning a championship, he should be on the table.

[Wolvesfan21]

Kyrie is only under team control for one more year, with a player option for the following season. One way to look at it is trading Randle for a one-year rental that might help you get over the top, and then re-signing a healthy Donte going forward. Or whatever makes the most sense depending on how the Kyrie experiment works out.

There are all sorts of possibilities. The most important one, besides re-signing Ayo, is moving off Randle and replacing his playmaking with someone else, preferably a guard. Kyrie fits that bill.

Isn't DDV somewhat valuable in the trade market as a mid-level expiring salary that can be used in a trade and perhaps aggregated with someone like Randle?

I don't get the sense we'll ever go back to DDV as our starting "point guard" next to Ant even though they actually were a good pair together. If he sticks around it will most likely be him coming off the bench once he's healthy and either Ayo or [insert Point Guard we trade for] starting.

Well, yeah, from a strictly basketball and financial perspective, Donte ought to be out the door. But from a human side, it sure seems DAMN COLD to move him!

I guess a recent podcast I watched put me on the fence about moving off Donte. But if the goal is winning a championship, he should be on the table.

Thats why I had him in my poll. Yeah trading him is cold and it sucks, but sacrifices need to be made to win. We all love him either way for how he played. He played his ass off and earned all the respect (and money can't buy respect, just thinking about how his next contract is going to suffer).

[Wolvesfan21]

The only recent example I can think of is LeBron James. It wasn't a trade, but he signed with the Lakers as a free agent before the 2018-19 season when he was 33. They won the title in the bubble year in 2020 when he was 35 and he won the Finals MVP.

Steph Curry wasn't traded for, but he was the best player on Golden State's last title team and he was 34 years old.

When San Antonio won their last title in 2014 Tim Duncan was 38 and he was still one of their two or three best players.

There are also plenty of examples of former all-stars or older all-stars that are well into their 30s and made huge contributions to championship teams, but aren't considered one of the top two or three players. Al Horford (37) was the starting Center on the Celtics; Ray Allen (37) was a major contributor off the bench for the Heat when they won their second of back to back titles; Marc Gasol (34) was the starting Center for the Raptors title run; Andre Iguodala (34) was a huge factor off the bench for the 2018 Warriors.

But generally speaking, the top two or three guys on title teams are in their mid-20s to early-30s at most.

Oh did the Spurs win that one with Duncan? I couldn't remember.

Generally yes, guys are late 20's early 30's usually. But a dozen or so examples exist of 34 yo plus guys winning and contributing.

Yeah, that last title that the Spurs won had Duncan, Parker, and Manu all in their 30s, with Duncan being the oldest. Manu was 36 and their 3rd leading scorer in the playoffs coming off the bench, so I should have mentioned him as well. And they also had the Finals MVP that year, an up and comer named Kawhi Leonard! So it wasn't just the old guys, but it was a pretty old team overall.

Yeah, yeah young Kawhi. I read someones post about how they lost and just went with it. Not that it totally made sense to me, but still.

I'd say Kidd probably makes the most sense as a comparison. PG who was traded at 35 yo, yet won it with Dallas in 2011 at age 38 and still a good player.

[Q-is-here]

Oh did the Spurs win that one with Duncan? I couldn't remember.

Generally yes, guys are late 20's early 30's usually. But a dozen or so examples exist of 34 yo plus guys winning and contributing.

Yeah, that last title that the Spurs won had Duncan, Parker, and Manu all in their 30s, with Duncan being the oldest. Manu was 36 and their 3rd leading scorer in the playoffs coming off the bench, so I should have mentioned him as well. And they also had the Finals MVP that year, an up and comer named Kawhi Leonard! So it wasn't just the old guys, but it was a pretty old team overall.

Yeah, yeah young Kawhi. I read someones post about how they lost and just went with it. Not that it totally made sense to me, but still.

I'd say Kidd probably makes the most sense as a comparison. PG who was traded at 35 yo, yet won it with Dallas in 2011 at age 38 and still a good player.

Yes, BUT he didn't have to carry much of a scoring load on that team in the same way Kyrie would for the Wolves.

Overall you can point to that Dallas team as one of the older examples in Finals history: Dirk, Kidd, Shawn Marion, and Jason Terry were all 32 or older and they were four out of their five best players (Tyson Chandler was 28 and super important to their defense).

[Wolvesfan21]

Yeah, that last title that the Spurs won had Duncan, Parker, and Manu all in their 30s, with Duncan being the oldest. Manu was 36 and their 3rd leading scorer in the playoffs coming off the bench, so I should have mentioned him as well. And they also had the Finals MVP that year, an up and comer named Kawhi Leonard! So it wasn't just the old guys, but it was a pretty old team overall.

Yeah, yeah young Kawhi. I read someones post about how they lost and just went with it. Not that it totally made sense to me, but still.

I'd say Kidd probably makes the most sense as a comparison. PG who was traded at 35 yo, yet won it with Dallas in 2011 at age 38 and still a good player.

Yes, BUT he didn't have to carry much of a scoring load on that team in the same way Kyrie would for the Wolves.

Overall you can point to that Dallas team as one of the older examples in Finals history: Dirk, Kidd, Shawn Marion, and Jason Terry were all 32 or older and they were four out of their five best players (Tyson Chandler was 28 and super important to their defense).

Kyrie obviously has been an elite scorer though too, a drop in his game and he can still be great. So IDK. I like the idea. Not saying he's a sure fire bet or anything. He seems to me like a probable bet that he could get us closer if not that extra bit over the hump to winning it.

[Lipoli390]

Can anyone come up with an example of an NBA team winning a championship or even making the NBA finals after trading for a veteran star in his mid-30s - especially one with a recent history of serious injuries? It didn’t work out for Houston this season after trading for Durant and it didn’t even work out for the Suns when they traded for Durant when he was still in his early 30s.

Former NBA stars in their mid-30s are fools gold.

The only recent example I can think of is LeBron James. It wasn't a trade, but he signed with the Lakers as a free agent before the 2018-19 season when he was 33. They won the title in the bubble year in 2020 when he was 35 and he won the Finals MVP.

Steph Curry wasn't traded for, but he was the best player on Golden State's last title team and he was 34 years old.

When San Antonio won their last title in 2014 Tim Duncan was 38 and he was still one of their two or three best players.

There are also plenty of examples of former all-stars or older all-stars that are well into their 30s and made huge contributions to championship teams, but aren't considered one of the top two or three players. Al Horford (37) was the starting Center on the Celtics; Ray Allen (37) was a major contributor off the bench for the Heat when they won their second of back to back titles; Marc Gasol (34) was the starting Center for the Raptors title run; Andre Iguodala (34) was a huge factor off the bench for the 2018 Warriors.

But generally speaking, the top two or three guys on title teams are in their mid-20s to early-30s at most.

My question wasn’t about age or even free agent signings. It was about trading for aging former stars in their mid 30s like Kyrie, Durant, etc. There are a number of examples of former stars in their mid 30s still playing at a high level and in some cases wining championships. The issue of TRADING for a mid-30s former stars is a very different matter for several reasons. First, you have to give up high-quality (also often high-quantity) assets to get them so it’s not purely additive and most teams grossly overpay because the market price has a time lag that gives too much value for what they were. Second, if a mid-30s former star player is available for trade it likely means there is baggage associated with a that player, which could be injury propensity/durability/availability issues, attitude issues, or a simple age-related decline that the team trading the player away likely knows far better than the teams trading to get him.

That’s why there are examples of mid-30s stars helping teams win championships but no examples of mid-30s former stars acquired through trades helping teams win championships. Kawhi was 27 when Toronto acquired him via trade. Interestingly, he had a recent injury history and might have had some attitude issues which led to the Spurs wanting to part with him. But he was still in his prime at age 27. As it turns out, he only gave Toronto one championship before departing and never again making it even as far as the NBA finals. Jrue Holiday was 30, not in his mid-30s, when the Bucks acquired him and he helped them win one championship before injuries caught up with him shortly thereafter ultimately leading to the Bucks decision to trade him to Portland. KG was 31 when the Celtics acquired him. He had no serious injury or durability issues when the Celtics traded for him and he helped deliver a championship to Boston his first season there, followed by three more very good seasons but only one more trip to the NBA finals. By the time KG was 34 years old, the Celtics run was over as age caught up with KG and Ray Allen. Kyrie Irving is already 34 and will turn 35 in March next season. He’s also coming off a serious injury. Moreover, you can’t ignore his mercurial nature and reputation for not fully committing to his teams.

To me this isn’t even a close call. If Kyrie were a free agent and we had cap room, then I’d consider him although he’s certainly no LeBron to say the least. But giving up any valuable assets for him would be ridiculous in my view. Houston was no better with Durant this season than without him last season and the Suns were actually better without him. Kyrie, with his recent injury, seems even more problematic to me than Durant. There might be some mid-30s vets worth acquiring via trade without giving up much who would add certain helpful attributes like toughness, chemistry or championship experience. But big game hunting for aging game is a failed strategy.

[WildWolf2813]

I don't know many vets in their mid-30s who have helped spearhead a team over the top to win a title.

I also don't know any #1 overall picks since the start of the lottery who have won their first title without drafting another #1 pick alongside him

For the Wolves to win a title, a lot of outliers will have to be made.

[Lipoli390]

I don't know many vets in their mid-30s who have helped spearhead a team over the top to win a title.

I also don't know any #1 overall picks since the start of the lottery who have won their first title without drafting another #1 pick alongside him

For the Wolves to win a title, a lot of outliers will have to be made.

Lots of teams have won titles with only one #1 pick. The Thunder have only one #1 pick and he’s not even their best player. The Warriors won multiple championships with no #1 picks. The Bulls won six championships with a #3 pick (MJ) and a #7 pick (Pippen). The list goes on and on. Teams typically win championships by drafting well to build their core and filling in aound them with trades and FA acquisitions. A variation on drafting well is suckering a team into giving up on a young highly promising player in exchange for an aging vet, which is what the Thunder did to get SGA. What never works is giving up valuable assets for aging former stars in their mid 30s with durability issues.

The Wolves aren’t that far off. They have a star player in Ant who hasn’t even hit his prime yet. They have a very good player and terrific defender in Jaden who is just entering his prime. They have a very talented and pretty unique big in Naz just entering his prime as well. The Wolves have had two consecutive trips to the Conference Finals and knocked off Denver in the first round this year without Ant. On the other hand, the Wolves finished 6th in spite of being largely healthy most of the season and it is clear they’re not at the same level as the Thunder and Spurs. So yes, the Wolves will need to make a significant move or two this off season. But this isn’t a hale Mary situation. It’s a “design a few really smart plays and get well down the field situation” to put us roughly on par with OKC and San Antonio. Will it be easy? No. But we purportedly have one of the best PBOs in the League and pay him accordingly. You don’t hire someone like TC to throw Hale Marys. You higher him to skillfully take you down the field and get you across the goal line more than the other teams.

We have a very talented team with our core guys just entering their prime years so we’re not staring at our own 10 yard line with 10 seconds to go. We’re at mid field and have a full 2 minutes to get another 50 years and cross the goal line. The ball is in TC’s hands. Let’s see what he can do. If he chucks the ball into the end zone four times, then hiring him was a huge mistake.

[Q-is-here]

I don't know many vets in their mid-30s who have helped spearhead a team over the top to win a title.

I also don't know any #1 overall picks since the start of the lottery who have won their first title without drafting another #1 pick alongside him

For the Wolves to win a title, a lot of outliers will have to be made.

Lots of teams have won titles with only one #1 pick. The Thunder have only one #1 pick and he’s not even their best player. The Warriors won multiple championships with no #1 picks. The Bulls won six championships with a #3 pick (MJ) and a #7 pick (Pippen). The list goes on and on. Teams typically win championships by drafting well to build their core and filling in aound them with trades and FA acquisitions. A variation on drafting well is suckering a team into giving up on a young highly promising player in exchange for an aging vet, which is what the Thunder did to get SGA. What never works is giving up valuable assets for aging former stars in their mid 30s with durability issues.

The Wolves aren’t that far off. They have a star player in Ant who hasn’t even hit his prime yet. They have a very good player and terrific defender in Jaden who is just entering his prime. They have a very talented and pretty unique big in Naz just entering his prime as well. The Wolves have had two consecutive trips to the Conference Finals and knocked off Denver in the first round this year without Ant. On the other hand, the Wolves finished 6th in spite of being largely healthy most of the season and it is clear they’re not at the same level as the Thunder and Spurs. So yes, the Wolves will need to make a significant move or two this off season. But this isn’t a hale Mary situation. It’s a “design a few really smart plays and get well down the field situation” to put us roughly on par with OKC and San Antonio. Will it be easy? No. But we purportedly have one of the best PBOs in the League and pay him accordingly. You don’t hire someone like TC to throw Hale Marys. You higher him to skillfully take you down the field and get you across the goal line more than the other teams.

We have a very talented team with our core guys just entering their prime years so we’re not staring at our own 10 yard line with 10 seconds to go. We’re at mid field and have a full 2 minutes to get another 50 years and cross the goal line. The ball is in TC’s hands. Let’s see what he can do. If he chucks the ball into the end zone four times, then hiring him was a huge mistake.

You make a very good case Lip against trading for Kyrie.

As an aside, the Knicks are an exception to the "build mostly through the draft and under-the-radar trades", as all of their acquisitions were quite loud and expensive affairs.....and they still have to beat OKC or the Spurs. But damn, 10 straight playoff wins and easily the best in the East. Kudos to to, gulp, James Dolan!