Trade Talks Update

[Monster]

"Thibs has been a better front office guy than head coach for sure. I wish Glen would just force him into that role and hire a new coach. Likely won't happen"

Can't agree with you. I think he's been piss poor at both jobs, but I think his front office skills are far worse than his coaching.

I agree that Thibodeau has been bad at both jobs. Hard to say in which position he's been worse. Here's a short review of Thibodeau's major PBO decisions:

DRAFT PICKS
1. Drafted Dunn over Murray and Hield
2. Drafted Patton over John Collins and Anunoby.
3. Drafted Okogie and KBD.

So far I'd say he gets a D for his first to drafts and a B+ for his third draft.

FREE AGENT SIGNINGS/EXTENSIONS

1. Cole Aldrich FA signing
2. Brandon Rush FA signing
3. Jamaal Crawford FA signing
4. Jeff Teague FA signing
5. Aaron Brooks FA signing
6. Gorgui 4-yr. $15M p/yr extension
7. Taj Gibson FA signing
8. Derrick Rose FA signing
9. MGH - FA signing
10. Anthony Brown FA 2-way contract
11. Bazz multi-yr $10M p/yr signing attempt rejected by Bazz
12. Bazz min salary FA signing
13. Luol Deng FA signing
14. Anthony Tolliver FA signing
15. Andrew Wiggins max extension
16. KAT max extension

I'd say Thibodeau's FA and extension decisions before this summer were poor overall. The only decision that has proven to be a good one was the Taj signing. I'd give him a B+ for that one -- not an A because Thibodeau paid higher than market value to get him. The Teague signing was mediocre at best then you Teague's defensive deficiencies on a team that needed better defense above all else and Teague's contract. The lucrative extension he gave Gorgui was bad and the one he offered Bazz (rejected by Bazz) was ridiculous. The max extension he gave Wiggins is problematic at this point. After two years, it would seem that Thibodeau's done better this summer signing Tolliver and extending KAT, but that remains to be seen.

TRADES

1. LaVine, Dunn & 7th pick for Butler & 15th pick
2. Rubio for OKC first round pick

The Butler trade turned out to be a one-year rental that got us into the playoffs. I don't think we can fully evaluate that deal until we see what Thibodeau gets in return for Butler this year. I had my doubts about the Butler trade at the time because of Butler's injury history, difficulty with teammates and age mismatch with out core young players, but I wasn't opposed to it. I still don't fault Thibodeau too much for doing the deal. I fault him as PBO for failing to proactively deal with the problems surrounding Butler and the team months ago either by definitively resolving Butler's dissatisfaction and resolving the related disputes or by trading him before an 11th-hour trade demand that his seriously undermined what would have been much better trade leverage.

As much as I liked Rubio, getting a first round pick for Rubio was probably as good as we could have gotten for him at the time. I fault Thibodeau the head coach for not wanting to coach him and failing to effectively use him. And I fault Thibodeau the PBO for what I consider to be a less than optimal FA signing to replace him. But the trade itself eventually brought Okogie to the Wolves so I have to give Thibodeau a lot of credit for making the deal, rejecting trade offers for the pick and then making excellent use of the pick by drafting Okogie.
Overall, I'd say the Rubio deal was a bright spot in Thibodeau's otherwise mediocre (at best) tenure as Wolves PBO.

I think in the end we have not had a good front office since the western conference finals team. It has been a damn long time. Our last GMs have been pretty bad at talent evaluation during the draft. This will be the reason in the end Thibs gets fired but for the last 10 years it has been so shit.

2009: Rubio (Starter)
2009: Flynn (Out of the league)
2009: Ellington (Rotation player)
2009: Nick Calthes (out of the league)
2010: Wes Johnson (Low end rotation player)
2010: Lazar Hayward (Out of the league)
2011: Derrick Williams (Out of the League)
2012: Robbie Hummel: (Out of the League)
2013: Shabazz Muhammad: (Non-Rotation player/Possible out of the league)
2013: Gorgui Dieng (Rotation player)
2013: Lorenzo Brown (Out of the League)
2013: Bojan Dubjevic (Out of the League)
2014: Zach Lavine (Starter)
2014: Glenn Robinson (Low end rotation player)
2014: Markel Brown (Out of the League)
2015: Kat (All-NBA)
2015: Tyus Jones (Rotation Player)
2016: Kris Dunn (Low end starter/Rotation player)
2017: Justin Patton (not in rotation/Injury)

So the Last 9 drafts we have selected 19 players.

All-stars or All-NBA: 1 (KAT)
Current Starters: 4 (Rubio, Lavine, Dunn, Kat)
Rotation players: 3 (Tyus, Ellington, Gorgui)
On rosters but don't play much: 3 (GRlll, Shabazz, Wes Johnson)
Out of the league or haven't played. 9 (Patton, Brown, Dubjevic, Brown, Hummel, Williams, Hayward, Calthes, Flynn)


So of all this we have drafted 1 all NBA player and 4 guys total who are NBA starters (with Lavine might be better 6th man and Dunn is one of the worst starting PGs in the League.

Kahn selected: Rubio and Flynn over Curry. Selected Wes Johnson over George because of media pressure. Derrick Williams busted.

Flip in one draft: Passed on CJ Mccollum to trade back to select Bazz over Greak Freak, Gorgui over Gobert, traded a pick for cash for Andre Roberson. that is 2 players that are All NBA and 2 players that are starters on playoff teams. Also traded a 1st round pick for Payne who is out of the league before his rookie contracted ended. (Also I am assuming picked Wiggins over Embiid).

Thibs selected: Dunn over Hield and Murry and Selected Patton over OG, Collins, Allen



We have been so bad at drafting and talent evaluation way before Thibs and it continues to come with Thibs (I like Okogie and KBD but who knows).

You pretty much nailed it but I will add a bit to what you have said.

Wiggins was already selected by the Cavs and then traded in the Love deal.

Lorenzo Brown has a partially guaranteed deal with the Raptors and was there as a 2-way player last season.

Bojan Dubjevic was actually a good pick if you care about straight up talent. He is one of the best bigs in Europe. He isn't here because the money isn't good right now, nobody will play him a whole lot and bigs are sort of a dying breed even though he can actually shoot and make 3's. Sure the pick still didn't net us anything but if you care about actual selection of talent when looking back that pick was actually a positive.

You laid it out well though we didn't get much out of most of these picks.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

....and the drafting issues even pre-dates 2009. Foye, McCants, Brewer.....none lived up to what the franchise originally envisioned as their top-end potential. It has been THE #1 problem with this franchise from the very beginning: Drafting and then developing talent.

[mjs34]

....and the drafting issues even pre-dates 2009. Foye, McCants, Brewer.....none lived up to what the franchise originally envisioned as their top-end potential. It has been THE #1 problem with this franchise from the very beginning: Drafting and then developing talent.

I am sure the reference to Robbie Hummel brought back some wonderful memories for you.....

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

....and the drafting issues even pre-dates 2009. Foye, McCants, Brewer.....none lived up to what the franchise originally envisioned as their top-end potential. It has been THE #1 problem with this franchise from the very beginning: Drafting and then developing talent.

I am sure the reference to Robbie Hummel brought back some wonderful memories for you.....

Indeed it did! He stayed in his lane, moved the ball, and took good shots. Love guys that know their role and "do no harm". He's probably killin' it in some YMCA these days....

[Monster]

....and the drafting issues even pre-dates 2009. Foye, McCants, Brewer.....none lived up to what the franchise originally envisioned as their top-end potential. It has been THE #1 problem with this franchise from the very beginning: Drafting and then developing talent.

I am sure the reference to Robbie Hummel brought back some wonderful memories for you.....

Indeed it did! He stayed in his lane, moved the ball, and took good shots. Love guys that know their role and "do no harm". He's probably killin' it in some YMCA these days....

Well...apparently there is a FIBA 3 on 3 thing (it's an Olympic sport in 2020) and Hummel is playing in it.

https://twitter.com/FIBA3x3/status/1045674489835544576?s=20

[Lipoli390]

....and the drafting issues even pre-dates 2009. Foye, McCants, Brewer.....none lived up to what the franchise originally envisioned as their top-end potential. It has been THE #1 problem with this franchise from the very beginning: Drafting and then developing talent.

Yep. Actually, the worst front office the Wolves have ever had was the pre-Glen Taylor front office led by Stein. But they've all been mediocre to horrible since that time. And the common thread through every front office regime has been bad drafting. Of course, bad drafting ultimately produces bad results for any NBA franchise except perhaps the Lakers.

Looking back through the draft decisions of all the Wolves front office regimes, I'd say the team has made only three excellent picks - (1) Towns as the top pick in 2015, (2) Marbury as the 4th or 5th pick (swapped for Ray Allen) in 1996, and (3) Garnett as the 5th pick in 1995. Of these, the Garnett pick was the best, not only because of what KG accomplished over his career but because the McHale and Flip took him at #5. Credit them for spotting his talent and then having the guts to take a player right out of high school before it was popular to do so. In hindsight the Wolves should have kept Ray Allen. He was absolutely the right pick to pair with Garnett based on their skills, overall talent and the fact that they had become friends before Marbury was drafted. Recall that the Wolves were leading the Western Conference when Marbury demanded to be trade. No one could have reasonably forseen Marbury's mental implosion over KG's salary. Flip told me he argued against trading Marbury, but was overruled by McHale. KAT pick was a no-brainer, but credit Flip for at least doing the right thing.

Other than those two picks, there were only three other picks in the entire nearly 30-year history of the Wolves franchise that could be considered fair to good: (1) Wally Z, (2) Tyus Jones, (3) Zach LaVine, (4) Ricky Rubio, and (5) Wayne Ellington -- and other than Wally, it's probably a stretch to call any of these picks good ones. I consider the Jones, LaVine and Ellington picks good in part because of where they were drafted -- i.e., not top 12 picks. Rubio was a risk worth taking. The mistake then was taking Flynn rather than the best shooter in college basketball (Curry) to pair with arguably the best passer/playmaker in that draft.

So I think it's fair to say that all but 8 of the Wolves picks over the past nearly 30 years have ranged from bad to horrible - although the jury is still out on Okogie, KDB and perhaps Dunn as well. That's 5 decent selections and 3 excellent selections out of at least 60 opportunities. Yet even one of those excellent picks turned out to be a bad one when viewed entirely based on hindsight. No wonder the Wolves have been such a perennial lottery participant. And here's the kicker. If any of us who've been regularly posting on this and the previous ESPN message board had been making the draft decisions over this period, the result would be profoundly better based on what we posted when these draft decisions were made. Nearly all of us were furious we drafted Flynn instead of Curry and I remember saying that if there were issues with Curry we didn't know about, then we should have drafted DeRozan. The list goes on.

Of all the front office regimes - none of them very good - I'd rate the McHale regime as the best primarily because that regime made the best single draft pick by far when they drafted Garnett. Even the Marbury pick was a very good pick since no one could have predicted Marbury's reaction to KG's salary. And that regime also deserves credit for a long string of playoff appearances as well as the acquisitions of Spree and Cassell and the resulting Western Conference Finals appearance. Worst regime is a toss-up between the Kahn and Stein regimes. So far, I'd rank the Thibodeau regime below the McHale regime, equal to the Flip regime and above the other two.

Flip has to get a lot of credit for drafting the Wolves best and only potential star talent since Garnett. He should also get credit for drafting LaVine mid first round and credit is due for turning a disgruntled Kevin Love into Andrew Wiggins. He also brought a spirit of optimism and fun to what had become a miserable, depressing organization. On the other hand, passing on McCollum and then trading down to take Bazz instead of the Greek Freak was terrible. Even worse was the decision to sell a first round pick that could have been used to draft Rudy Gobert. That might be worse than drafting Flynn instead of Curry or Ebi instead of Josh Howard. I still can't get over the decision to sell a 1st round pick for cash. No other team does that!!

The Thibodeau regime isn't over yet. We'll have to see how Okogie and KBD pan out as well as what we get in return for Butler. Who knows, maybe Thibodeau can rise to the top of our Wolves front office regime ranking before he's done here. What a dubious honor that would be. :). But if he wants to achieve that honor, I think he'll have to replace his head coach. :)

[Lipoli390]

Getting back to the purpose of this thread, here's the latest from Doogie Wolfson: "

"Darren Wolfson: "My understanding is, from talking to numerous league officials - league sources, front-office folks, a coach, actually, a couple of coaching sources - that the Timberwolves have all the parameters of the deals that they can make. So it's on the Wolves at some point here to say yes. Now, do they wait a little bit longer just to see if some team adds some player in, like Miami? Miami is not willing to move Josh Richardson. But in the end, do they offer Josh Richardson? I talked about that on a recent podcast, that some league people thought yeah, at the end, Pat Riley would make him available when you have the chance to acquire a star like Jimmy Butler. But so far, as of Oct. 2nd, no sense whatsoever that Miami is making Josh Richardson available. Same goes for Bam Adebayo." - via 1500 ESPN.

"Darren Wolfson: "Is Goran Dragic available [in exchange for Jimmy Butler]? Yeah, the Wolves could acquire Goran Dragic. Is Hassan Whiteside available? Yeah, the Wolves could acquire Hassan Whiteside. From Houston, you can get Eric Gordon. You can get PJ Tucker. The Rockets want Jimmy Butler. The Bucks are willing to offer Malcolm Brogdon, Eric Bledsoe--the Bucks still have interest in Jimmy Butler, but they're not willing to move Khris Middleton. ... The Clippers are also still very, very interested in Jimmy Butler." - via 1500 ESPN

So let's unpack Doogie's revelations - with the understanding that he's not alway the most reliable.

1. My biggest take-away is that Miami is still our most likely trading partner.

2. My next take-away is that, with some patience, we can ultimately end up with Richardson or Adebayo, but definitely not both. Right now, it would appear that a deal with Miami would NOT include either one but could include Whiteside or Dragic. I'd take Whiteside if necessary as part of a package to get Richardson and a 1st rd pk or Adebayo. Similarly, I wouldn't bite on a Dragic deal unless it also included either Richardson or Adebayo. Dragic just doesn't fit here. His age puts him out of sync with our core. Also, his position, PG, is not a position of need. In fact, trading for Dragic would require dealing Teague if it were to make any sense.

3. Another take-away is that, not surprisingly, we could get Eric Gordon and PJ Tucker from the Rockets. Obviously, for this deal to be remotely palatable, the Wolves would also have to get at least two future unprotected 1st round picks from the Rockets. But I'd still hate the deal even with two picks because those picks would likely be in the 20-30 range.

4. Doogie's report that a Brogdon/Bledsoe deal is on the table certainly makes sense for Milwaukee, but I don't see any sense in it for the Wolves even though I like Brogdon. I just don't see any Milwaukee deal making sense for the Wolves if it doesn't include Middleton. But who knows, maybe Milwaukee eventually relents on Middleton and we end up dealing both Butler and Teague to the Bucks for Middleton, Bledsoe and Brogdon. I haven't checked salaries on that one, but I think it would be close to a match.

5. The only surprise in Doogie's report is his description of the Clippers as "very, very interested in Jimmy Butler." Hmm. Great if its true. But any deal with the Clippers had better land both T. Harris and Gilgeous-Alexander.

I'm still hoping the Wizards emerge as a dark horse partner and swap Otto Porter or Bradley Beal for Butler. If not, I'm thinking I'd be OK with any of the following:

1. A Clipper deal that lands both T. Harris and G-Alexander,
2. A Miami deal that lands Adebayo and Winslow, or
3. A Milwaukee deal that lands Middleton and either Brogdon or a protected 1st rd pk

[Monster]

....and the drafting issues even pre-dates 2009. Foye, McCants, Brewer.....none lived up to what the franchise originally envisioned as their top-end potential. It has been THE #1 problem with this franchise from the very beginning: Drafting and then developing talent.

Yep. Actually, the worst front office the Wolves have ever had was the pre-Glen Taylor front office led by Stein. But they've all been mediocre to horrible since that time. And the common thread through every front office regime has been bad drafting. Of course, bad drafting ultimately produces bad results for any NBA franchise except perhaps the Lakers.

Looking back through the draft decisions of all the Wolves front office regimes, I'd say the team has made only three excellent picks - (1) Towns as the top pick in 2015, (2) Marbury as the 4th or 5th pick (swapped for Ray Allen) in 1996, and (3) Garnett as the 5th pick in 1995. Of these, the Garnett pick was the best, not only because of what KG accomplished over his career but because the McHale and Flip took him at #5. Credit them for spotting his talent and then having the guts to take a player right out of high school before it was popular to do so. In hindsight the Wolves should have kept Ray Allen. He was absolutely the right pick to pair with Garnett based on their skills, overall talent and the fact that they had become friends before Marbury was drafted. Recall that the Wolves were leading the Western Conference when Marbury demanded to be trade. No one could have reasonably forseen Marbury's mental implosion over KG's salary. Flip told me he argued against trading Marbury, but was overruled by McHale. KAT pick was a no-brainer, but credit Flip for at least doing the right thing.

Other than those two picks, there were only three other picks in the entire nearly 30-year history of the Wolves franchise that could be considered fair to good: (1) Wally Z, (2) Tyus Jones, (3) Zach LaVine, (4) Ricky Rubio, and (5) Wayne Ellington -- and other than Wally, it's probably a stretch to call any of these picks good ones. I consider the Jones, LaVine and Ellington picks good in part because of where they were drafted -- i.e., not top 12 picks. Rubio was a risk worth taking. The mistake then was taking Flynn rather than the best shooter in college basketball (Curry) to pair with arguably the best passer/playmaker in that draft.

So I think it's fair to say that all but 8 of the Wolves picks over the past nearly 30 years have ranged from bad to horrible - although the jury is still out on Okogie, KDB and perhaps Dunn as well. That's 5 decent selections and 3 excellent selections out of at least 60 opportunities. Yet even one of those excellent picks turned out to be a bad one when viewed entirely based on hindsight. No wonder the Wolves have been such a perennial lottery participant. And here's the kicker. If any of us who've been regularly posting on this and the previous ESPN message board had been making the draft decisions over this period, the result would be profoundly better based on what we posted when these draft decisions were made. Nearly all of us were furious we drafted Flynn instead of Curry and I remember saying that if there were issues with Curry we didn't know about, then we should have drafted DeRozan. The list goes on.

Of all the front office regimes - none of them very good - I'd rate the McHale regime as the best primarily because that regime made the best single draft pick by far when they drafted Garnett. Even the Marbury pick was a very good pick since no one could have predicted Marbury's reaction to KG's salary. And that regime also deserves credit for a long string of playoff appearances as well as the acquisitions of Spree and Cassell and the resulting Western Conference Finals appearance. Worst regime is a toss-up between the Kahn and Stein regimes. So far, I'd rank the Thibodeau regime below the McHale regime, equal to the Flip regime and above the other two.

Flip has to get a lot of credit for drafting the Wolves best and only potential star talent since Garnett. He should also get credit for drafting LaVine mid first round and credit is due for turning a disgruntled Kevin Love into Andrew Wiggins. He also brought a spirit of optimism and fun to what had become a miserable, depressing organization. On the other hand, passing on McCollum and then trading down to take Bazz instead of the Greek Freak was terrible. Even worse was the decision to sell a first round pick that could have been used to draft Rudy Gobert. That might be worse than drafting Flynn instead of Curry or Ebi instead of Josh Howard. I still can't get over the decision to sell a 1st round pick for cash. No other team does that!!

The Thibodeau regime isn't over yet. We'll have to see how Okogie and KBD pan out as well as what we get in return for Butler. Who knows, maybe Thibodeau can rise to the top of our Wolves front office regime ranking before he's done here. What a dubious honor that would be. :). But if he wants to achieve that honor, I think he'll have to replace his head coach. :)

Lip you left out the terrific draft night deal McHale made for Love which not only netted the best player it saved money against the cap.

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

Wolfson tweeted out that the wolves want both richardson and bam.

Miami is probably offering to do

Whiteside, waiters, and first for jimmy and dieng

Or

T.johnson, winslow, and first for jimmy

[mjs34]

Wolfson tweeted out that the wolves want both richardson and bam.

Miami is probably offering to do

Whiteside, waiters, and first for jimmy and dieng

Or

T.johnson, winslow, and first for jimmy

Noticed that neither Richardson or Bam played in the first two games for Miami, so maybe they are close.