Minnesota Sports Forum

Q12543 wrote:

Camden wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Who are you getting for Towns that's gonna end up better than him? Teams just don't trade young all-stars and trading him for unknown draft picks might as well seal the fate of this team going to Seattle. Tatum, Luka, Zion, Ja, Mitchell. None of those guys are on the block. We're just better off hoping he matures as this contract goes on and becomes that guy than rebuilding yet again.

Agreed. The only avenue that you could even hope for is to make it a trade after the draft lottery where the team acquiring Towns has the number one overall pick and it happens to be a strong draft class at the top. Unfortunately, those are rare circumstances.

You probably don't get a player better than KAT straight up in a trade. But here are all the things we need in order to build around him:

1. A defensive big that exhibits toughness and switchabillity and is good enough offensively to play more than just a token amount of minutes.
2. A play making ball handler that can run PnR and get guys open shots, including KAT.
3. Wings that can defend and shoot.

In other words, we pretty much need the exact three same things if we were starting from scratch! Therein lies the problem with building around an offensive-oriented big man that struggles on defense.

Legit question:

If you have faith in an organization trading Towns for assets to build this team why not have faith in the organization to build around him? Is Towns THAT big of a problem to solve it is it partly because he is such an enticing asset to possibly move?

I always thought that Brooks was not very good defensively while his brother was legit. I guess they are considered identical here. Same with KAT, but of course KAT is supreme on offense.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lopezbr01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html

Career defensive rating.

KAT - 108
Brook - 108
Robin - 109

WolvesFan21 wrote:I always thought that Brooks was not very good defensively while his brother was legit. I guess they are considered identical here. Same with KAT, but of course KAT is supreme on offense.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lopezbr01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html

Career defensive rating.

KAT - 108
Brook - 108
Robin - 109

Tell the whole story. This year Brook is 101, and last year he was 103. This is his time with Milwaukee.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:I always thought that Brooks was not very good defensively while his brother was legit. I guess they are considered identical here. Same with KAT, but of course KAT is supreme on offense.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lopezbr01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html

Career defensive rating.

KAT - 108
Brook - 108
Robin - 109

Tell the whole story. This year Brook is 101, and last year he was 103. This is his time with Milwaukee.

I imagine KAT would be 101 there as well. Or you disagree? Obviously having other stud defenders makes the difference. Brook didn't become a stud when he showed up on Wisconsin hard courts. lol

WolvesFan21 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:I always thought that Brooks was not very good defensively while his brother was legit. I guess they are considered identical here. Same with KAT, but of course KAT is supreme on offense.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lopezbr01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html

Career defensive rating.

KAT - 108
Brook - 108
Robin - 109

Tell the whole story. This year Brook is 101, and last year he was 103. This is his time with Milwaukee.

I imagine KAT would be 101 there as well. Or you disagree? Obviously having other stud defenders makes the difference. Brook didn't become a stud when he showed up on Wisconsin hard courts. lol

Wolves, I'm just saying I watch every Bucks game, therefore I'm not basing my comment on any advanced stat. But what I can tell you is Lopez along with Giannis anchors that defense. And it might be the best defense in the league. KAT does not give the Wolves what Brook gives the Bucks on defense, not even close.

WolvesFan21 wrote:I always thought that Brooks was not very good defensively while his brother was legit. I guess they are considered identical here. Same with KAT, but of course KAT is supreme on offense.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lopezbr01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html

Career defensive rating.

KAT - 108
Brook - 108
Robin - 109

B-ball reference is not the best place to get D-rating from. It's not the same as the D-rtg on NBA.com and other stat sites that tells us how many points per 100 possessions a team gives up when Player A is on the floor. B-ball reference mixes in individual defensive stats like defensive rebounds and blocks as well. KAT (and Dieng as well) do well in the box score defensive metrics, which makes them look better on defense than they really are when it comes to the b-ball reference Drtg.

Brook is probably around a career Drtng of 107 vs. KAT's 112 or so. In fact, Brook's worst years in Drtg are equivalent to KAT's best years.

Bottom line is that this team has been near the bottom in Opponent eFG% and overall Drtg over the past 5+ years. KAT and Wiggins have BY FAR played the most minutes during that timeframe. If either of them were actually plus defenders, we wouldn't be this bad year after year. Dieng hasn't helped much either.

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Camden wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Who are you getting for Towns that's gonna end up better than him? Teams just don't trade young all-stars and trading him for unknown draft picks might as well seal the fate of this team going to Seattle. Tatum, Luka, Zion, Ja, Mitchell. None of those guys are on the block. We're just better off hoping he matures as this contract goes on and becomes that guy than rebuilding yet again.

Agreed. The only avenue that you could even hope for is to make it a trade after the draft lottery where the team acquiring Towns has the number one overall pick and it happens to be a strong draft class at the top. Unfortunately, those are rare circumstances.

You probably don't get a player better than KAT straight up in a trade. But here are all the things we need in order to build around him:

1. A defensive big that exhibits toughness and switchabillity and is good enough offensively to play more than just a token amount of minutes.
2. A play making ball handler that can run PnR and get guys open shots, including KAT.
3. Wings that can defend and shoot.

In other words, we pretty much need the exact three same things if we were starting from scratch! Therein lies the problem with building around an offensive-oriented big man that struggles on defense.

Legit question:

If you have faith in an organization trading Towns for assets to build this team why not have faith in the organization to build around him? Is Towns THAT big of a problem to solve it is it partly because he is such an enticing asset to possibly move?

Let me clarify that I think KAT is a supremely talented player and could go down as one of the best shooters in NBA history. In a vacuum, I think he's great. My issue is that he may have the absolute worst combination of traits to build around in today's NBA: 1) Big man and 2) Weak defensively. What that means is that all the player types you need to surround him with are the exact same player types you need if you were starting from scratch! We need tough, defensive bigs that aren't major liabilities on offense; we need wings that can shoot and defend; and we need a perimeter player or two that can handle, create shots, and play pick and roll/pop ball.

If you start with Luka Doncic, you have one of those boxes checked. If you start with Kawhi Leonard, you have one of those boxes checked. And if you start with Marc Gasol, you have one of those boxes checked.

We have KAT and STILL need to fill all those needs to have any hope of getting past the 1st or 2nd round, much less contend.

So why not parlay KAT for may be someone who checks just one of those boxes and some draft assets that could eventually check one of the others?

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:I always thought that Brooks was not very good defensively while his brother was legit. I guess they are considered identical here. Same with KAT, but of course KAT is supreme on offense.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lopezbr01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html

Career defensive rating.

KAT - 108
Brook - 108
Robin - 109

Tell the whole story. This year Brook is 101, and last year he was 103. This is his time with Milwaukee.

I imagine KAT would be 101 there as well. Or you disagree? Obviously having other stud defenders makes the difference. Brook didn't become a stud when he showed up on Wisconsin hard courts. lol

Wolves, I'm just saying I watch every Bucks game, therefore I'm not basing my comment on any advanced stat. But what I can tell you is Lopez along with Giannis anchors that defense. And it might be the best defense in the league. KAT does not give the Wolves what Brook gives the Bucks on defense, not even close.

Hypothetically putting in KAT on the Bucks instead of Brook makes their defense worse you think? I don't think Brook is that much different than KAT on defense, maybe he is slightly better. Giannis makes that defense roll along with solid other players.

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Camden wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Who are you getting for Towns that's gonna end up better than him? Teams just don't trade young all-stars and trading him for unknown draft picks might as well seal the fate of this team going to Seattle. Tatum, Luka, Zion, Ja, Mitchell. None of those guys are on the block. We're just better off hoping he matures as this contract goes on and becomes that guy than rebuilding yet again.

Agreed. The only avenue that you could even hope for is to make it a trade after the draft lottery where the team acquiring Towns has the number one overall pick and it happens to be a strong draft class at the top. Unfortunately, those are rare circumstances.

You probably don't get a player better than KAT straight up in a trade. But here are all the things we need in order to build around him:

1. A defensive big that exhibits toughness and switchabillity and is good enough offensively to play more than just a token amount of minutes.
2. A play making ball handler that can run PnR and get guys open shots, including KAT.
3. Wings that can defend and shoot.

In other words, we pretty much need the exact three same things if we were starting from scratch! Therein lies the problem with building around an offensive-oriented big man that struggles on defense.

Legit question:

If you have faith in an organization trading Towns for assets to build this team why not have faith in the organization to build around him? Is Towns THAT big of a problem to solve it is it partly because he is such an enticing asset to possibly move?

Let me clarify that I think KAT is a supremely talented player and could go down as one of the best shooters in NBA history. In a vacuum, I think he's great. My issue is that he may have the absolute worst combination of traits to build around in today's NBA: 1) Big man and 2) Weak defensively. What that means is that all the player types you need to surround him with are the exact same player types you need if you were starting from scratch! We need tough, defensive bigs that aren't major liabilities on offense; we need wings that can shoot and defend; and we need a perimeter player or two that can handle, create shots, and play pick and roll/pop ball.

If you start with Luka Doncic, you have one of those boxes checked. If you start with Kawhi Leonard, you have one of those boxes checked. And if you start with Marc Gasol, you have one of those boxes checked.

We have KAT and STILL need to fill all those needs to have any hope of getting past the 1st or 2nd round, much less contend.

So why not parlay KAT for may be someone who checks just one of those boxes and some draft assets that could eventually check one of the others?

Thanks for the reply and breakdown of what you are thinking.

Counterpoint (Some of this is just for discussion)...Towns isn't just one of the best shooting bigs he is one of the best shooting players in the league. He isn't limited to scoring on the block or even catch and shoot 3's. He is a longer more athletic and talented offensive version of Kevin Love. We are talking about a guy better than Love and yet not Kevin Durant but with that same length. I really think Towns is going to change the way people think about how he can play the next couple years AND therefore how this team can play Offensively. I think Towns offensively has a chance to be THE guy on a team more than maybe I have thought the past couple years. His shooting is that good and I don't even think we have seen his true full arsenal yet and if better he gets even better on the perimeter. He needs help though as does any top tier offensive player.

Defensively...Well lets be honest we have been talking about getting the right defensive players next to talented bigs since we traded away KG and brought in Al Jefferson. Can Towns make a leap to be something where he is more of an asset instead of a liability? That I question more than his offense. If we trade Towns or keep him this team needs to figure out that end with schemes and players. I'm not convinced the early success of this team on that end was a complete mirage. I'm curious to see how things go the next 10-20 games and obviously the rest of the season. Bottom line though after the last few games I feel less sure about Towns on the defensive end so Yeah I get your thinking there.

WolvesFan21 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:I always thought that Brooks was not very good defensively while his brother was legit. I guess they are considered identical here. Same with KAT, but of course KAT is supreme on offense.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lopezbr01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html

Career defensive rating.

KAT - 108
Brook - 108
Robin - 109

Tell the whole story. This year Brook is 101, and last year he was 103. This is his time with Milwaukee.

I imagine KAT would be 101 there as well. Or you disagree? Obviously having other stud defenders makes the difference. Brook didn't become a stud when he showed up on Wisconsin hard courts. lol

Wolves, I'm just saying I watch every Bucks game, therefore I'm not basing my comment on any advanced stat. But what I can tell you is Lopez along with Giannis anchors that defense. And it might be the best defense in the league. KAT does not give the Wolves what Brook gives the Bucks on defense, not even close.

Hypothetically putting in KAT on the Bucks instead of Brook makes their defense worse you think? I don't think Brook is that much different than KAT on defense, maybe he is slightly better. Giannis makes that defense roll along with solid other players.

Yeah I do. Brook doesn't get pushed around like KAT does. The Bucks would be better with KAT obviously, but not on defense.