Minnesota Sports Forum

FNG wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:DLO for Simmons as the base trade makes sense for both teams. KAT is the best floor spacing big in the game, a guy like Simmons compliments him very well not to mention on defense, Simmons is excellent and can help elevate the interior and perimeter.

Then on the Sixers side Embiid is a great defender, he can make up for some subpar defense from DLO, then DLO is a great floor spacer compared to Simmons on offense.

I think this honestly is a win-win for both teams. I think if a trade happens this is it.

I don't think there is anyone here who wouldn't be happy with a swap of those two max salary players. But I also suspect that most Philly fans would mutiny if Dlo was their return...even though they hate Simmons right now! Even though there is a report out there that Morey was pissed that Rosas wouldn't put Russell on the table, we also know he is an analytics guy...and as Abe mentioned, Dlo is not an analytics darling. On paper he comes across as a inefficient scorer who can't defend...not at all what a guy like Morey is looking for.

If Dlo ends up being the centerpiece of a Simmons deal, I'll eat my fair share of crow...and it'll taste just find. But I think we have to come to terms with the fact that the asking price right now is Ant, and even down the road it won't be less than a Jaden/Beasley combo.

DLO and a 1st then. I'm fine with that. Assuming we stay healthy it'll be out of the lottery anyways.

Ant for me is off the table. I want to keep Jaden as well. I could be talked into Bease but I hear what others say, we would be really lacking on 3P if we trade both DLO and Bease.

I wouldn't mind trying to be a top 10 defensive team even with KAT and Ant who at the moment are subpar/avg defenders. They can carry much of the offense I think and Simmons is no slouch either when he gets going downhill. hehe

kekgeek1 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Meh. Ben Simmons is better than D'Angelo Russell individually, but the Wolves are significantly better having both of those two along with Karl-Anthony Towns and Anthony Edwards than not. That should be the goal here. You trade a Malik Beasley and a Jaden McDaniels if you have to in order to make that happen. You trade future first-round picks. Obviously, as I've said most of this summer, I think Simmons can be had without emptying the cupboard for him. But you do those things to create that foursome. That team isn't as dangerous without Russell.

I'm torn on this. It's all about the improvement of Ant. If Dlo is traded Ant will be the only off the dribble scoring threat at the end of games. Sort it like Harris is for the 76ers now. The Wolves could fall into that same trap the 76ers currently do. Obviously Ant has a ton more upside as a scorer then Harris but it would be a lot on his shoulders in year 2. I agree that the Wolves are a lot more dangerous with Dlo still on the team with Simmons.

We're not even accounting for the facilitator that D'Angelo Russell is. This board is losing its edge if it thinks that Anthony Edwards is ready to step into that role as a passer. And asking Ben Simmons to do that has shown to have some limitations. Russell is the player type that Simmons was never afforded in Philadelphia. The additional ball-handler/shot-creator that can take some pressure off of Simmons in that role. That's part of the entire draw of getting him in Minnesota, along with Karl-Anthony Towns' ability to make it rain from three as a big man.

Camden wrote:Meh. Ben Simmons is better than D'Angelo Russell individually, but the Wolves are significantly better having both of those two along with Karl-Anthony Towns and Anthony Edwards than not. That should be the goal here. You trade a Malik Beasley and a Jaden McDaniels if you have to in order to make that happen. You trade future first-round picks. Obviously, as I've said most of this summer, I think Simmons can be had without emptying the cupboard for him. But you do those things to create that foursome. That team isn't as dangerous without Russell.

If I have Simmons and Russell... I want Simmons to be the guy with the ball. As you said, he's better. And if we're moving Russell off ball... why not just go with a guy at 1/2 the price who shoots just as well and has shown the ability to sorta thrive in that role. (and hope he stays out of jail)

I know you dig Russell. And obviously, I'm not sold on Russell as a $30M guy. I genuinely dislike his game and I'm firmly aware of this bias. I'm also pretty confident in my take. I don't know what's changed from last season to think that he's suddenly worth that contract, regardless of who his teammates are.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:Meh. Ben Simmons is better than D'Angelo Russell individually, but the Wolves are significantly better having both of those two along with Karl-Anthony Towns and Anthony Edwards than not. That should be the goal here. You trade a Malik Beasley and a Jaden McDaniels if you have to in order to make that happen. You trade future first-round picks. Obviously, as I've said most of this summer, I think Simmons can be had without emptying the cupboard for him. But you do those things to create that foursome. That team isn't as dangerous without Russell.

If I have Simmons and Russell... I want Simmons to be the guy with the ball. As you said, he's better. And if we're moving Russell off ball... why not just go with a guy at 1/2 the price who shoots just as well and has shown the ability to sorta thrive in that role. (and hope he stays out of jail)

I know you dig Russell. And obviously, I'm not sold on Russell as a $30M guy. I genuinely dislike his game and I'm firmly aware of this bias. I'm also pretty confident in my take. I don't know what's changed from last season to think that he's suddenly worth that contract, regardless of who his teammates are.

If I have Simmons and Russell, I want them both handling the rock and there's a multitude of ways to do so, as well as getting Towns his looks at the elbow and in the post. Not to mention the easy buckets the Wolves would get with those two in the pick-and-roll. Having more threats offensively is a good thing. This is elementary stuff here so I shouldn't need to say that. Beasley is half the price because he can do half the things Russell can off the dribble -- maybe not even half.

kekgeek1 wrote:If Rosas pulls off the Beasley, McDaniels, Prince and picks package for Simmons I'll raise my hands and applaud.

Rosas would have turned 2 "assets" that he inherent in Covington and Gorgui into a 25 All NBA talent under 4 years of control. Massive props on to Rosas for that.

Are you kidding? McDaniels is a stud and you do realize the Wolves would have to add a whole bevy of draft picks too. The only trade that makes sense without killing the future is to trade DLO (so Morey can sell the trade) along with a couple picks. If we need to throw in Bolmaro or Naz, I can live with that. But McDaniels is the type of young two way player that the Wolves rarely ever have and it would be nice to build around him and Ant.

Camden0916 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:Meh. Ben Simmons is better than D'Angelo Russell individually, but the Wolves are significantly better having both of those two along with Karl-Anthony Towns and Anthony Edwards than not. That should be the goal here. You trade a Malik Beasley and a Jaden McDaniels if you have to in order to make that happen. You trade future first-round picks. Obviously, as I've said most of this summer, I think Simmons can be had without emptying the cupboard for him. But you do those things to create that foursome. That team isn't as dangerous without Russell.

If I have Simmons and Russell... I want Simmons to be the guy with the ball. As you said, he's better. And if we're moving Russell off ball... why not just go with a guy at 1/2 the price who shoots just as well and has shown the ability to sorta thrive in that role. (and hope he stays out of jail)

I know you dig Russell. And obviously, I'm not sold on Russell as a $30M guy. I genuinely dislike his game and I'm firmly aware of this bias. I'm also pretty confident in my take. I don't know what's changed from last season to think that he's suddenly worth that contract, regardless of who his teammates are.

If I have Simmons and Russell, I want them both handling the rock and there's a multitude of ways to do so, as well as getting Towns his looks at the elbow and in the post. Not to mention the easy buckets the Wolves would get with those two in the pick-and-roll. Having more threats offensively is a good thing. This is elementary stuff here so I shouldn't need to say that. Beasley is half the price because he can do half the things Russell can off the dribble -- maybe not even half.

If Ben is brought in, DLO's passing is less important. DLO doesn't like playing off the ball and Beasley is a better off the ball shooter. DLO's contributions don't justify a max contract and the Wolves are better served moving him in a Simmons trade. Hopefully, its bye bye DLO soon.

Camden wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:Meh. Ben Simmons is better than D'Angelo Russell individually, but the Wolves are significantly better having both of those two along with Karl-Anthony Towns and Anthony Edwards than not. That should be the goal here. You trade a Malik Beasley and a Jaden McDaniels if you have to in order to make that happen. You trade future first-round picks. Obviously, as I've said most of this summer, I think Simmons can be had without emptying the cupboard for him. But you do those things to create that foursome. That team isn't as dangerous without Russell.

If I have Simmons and Russell... I want Simmons to be the guy with the ball. As you said, he's better. And if we're moving Russell off ball... why not just go with a guy at 1/2 the price who shoots just as well and has shown the ability to sorta thrive in that role. (and hope he stays out of jail)

I know you dig Russell. And obviously, I'm not sold on Russell as a $30M guy. I genuinely dislike his game and I'm firmly aware of this bias. I'm also pretty confident in my take. I don't know what's changed from last season to think that he's suddenly worth that contract, regardless of who his teammates are.

If I have Simmons and Russell, I want them both handling the rock and there's a multitude of ways to do so, as well as getting Towns his looks at the elbow and in the post. Not to mention the easy buckets the Wolves would get with those two in the pick-and-roll. Having more threats offensively is a good thing. This is elementary stuff here so I shouldn't need to say that. Beasley is half the price because he can do half the things Russell can off the dribble -- maybe not even half.

Thanks for dumbing things down for us dolts anyway... Ha.

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:FNG - Morey is an analytics guy and let's just say he has a LOT of confidence in himself. So I don't think he'll factor in fan sentiments. He's out to get the best deal possible to propel the Sixers to a championship during the Embiid era. He knows that, if DLO is healthy, he's much better than Beverley and a much better fit for the Sixers than either Beverley or Beasley. DLO is the only Wolves player who would actually fill the Sixers' need for a more offensive oriented lead guard to pair with Embiid and Harris. And if he's healthy, he'd good enough to help the Sixers remain in contention this upcoming season.

So I don't think fan sentiment will impact his interest in DLO. We don't know how interested Morey is in DLO. We've heard that Morey was irritated by Gersson's refusal to put DLO on the table for a possible deal. If true, that report tells us something. I think Morey would settle for a Wolves package that included DLO, McDaniels and several future 1st-round picks. I think he'd prefer that over Beasley, Beverley, McDaniels and several future firsts.

The rub is...

Isn't D'Angelo Russell sort of an anti-analytics player in some ways? He's certainly a different type of player than the guy who Morey hitched his wagon to in Houston previously.

Russell has taken 1,062 free throws in his career. (8.7 per game)
Harden has taken 800 or more in 5 different seasons. (3.7 per game)

He helped bring that out of Harden... so maybe he sees something in Russell... AND thinks he can reach him unlike others.

Morey is hitching his wagon to Embiid for starters. As Wolvesfan mentioned, having him on the backline definitely helps with DLO's defensive deficiencies. DLO played the most minutes on a 14th-ranked defensive unit in Brooklyn a couple years ago with Jarrett Allen to help anchor the paint, so we know that it's possible for him to be on a solid defensive team.

I also think Thybulle is an absolute monster defensively and will probably see even more floor time with Simmons gone. With all due respect to McDaniels and Vando, the Embiid/Thybulle pairing is by far better defensively than anything Minnesota has on its current roster to go along with DLO.

Bottom-line....The Sixers could really use a perimeter ball handler and confident shot maker whose defensive deficiencies can be largely masked by the rest of the roster. DLO fits that profile.

I agree with some of the others....DLO for Simmons is a win/win.

And Danny Green and Tobias Harris are elite defenders also, and even Seth Curry has a good defensive reputation. But sure, Embiid (and others) might help clean up some of Dlo's messes on defense, but I think his main issue on defense (as well as Beasley's) is a total lack of understanding of team defense and rotation and a resulting inability to defend the perimeter. You can have four elite defenders like Philly will have out there much of the time (5 with Simmons), and a good offensive team will still exploit Russell's ineptness in preventing wide-open 3-point looks. Was there anything more painful last year than watching the Wolves try to defend the perimeter when the backcourt was Russell and Beasley? That's why I still think Dlo will be a bitter pill for Morey to swallow if that's the best he can get out of the Wolves. IMO opinion Dlo for Simmons is a huge win for the Wolves, but insufficient for Philly.

But let's say I'm wrong, and I really hope I am on this one. I thought Anthony Edwards was awful on defense last year. If we were able to swap Dlo for Simmons, would Edwards deficiencies on defense still doom the Wolves to a bottom half rating? I would argue that Edwards won't hurt the Wolves' defense as much as Dlo would hurt the 76ers. Even though he was stupid and unaware on D at times, Ant's length and athleticism allows his to recover better than Dlo, and his perimeter defense was not as glaringly bad as Russell's and Beasley's. Where Ant frustrated me most, and this was a recurring issue in college also, was effort. While his on-ball defense could be impressive at times, at other times his lackadaisical attitude led to easy buckets. And even more frustrating for me was Ant's propensity to not get back on defense. What can fix this? Toughness by Finch...yank his ass off the court if he gets beat down the court. Also, I don't expect a tough veteran like Beverley to be very forgiving if Ant lollygags down the court (and that goes for KAT too) He needs to be better if we are going to get stops.

FNG wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:FNG - Morey is an analytics guy and let's just say he has a LOT of confidence in himself. So I don't think he'll factor in fan sentiments. He's out to get the best deal possible to propel the Sixers to a championship during the Embiid era. He knows that, if DLO is healthy, he's much better than Beverley and a much better fit for the Sixers than either Beverley or Beasley. DLO is the only Wolves player who would actually fill the Sixers' need for a more offensive oriented lead guard to pair with Embiid and Harris. And if he's healthy, he'd good enough to help the Sixers remain in contention this upcoming season.

So I don't think fan sentiment will impact his interest in DLO. We don't know how interested Morey is in DLO. We've heard that Morey was irritated by Gersson's refusal to put DLO on the table for a possible deal. If true, that report tells us something. I think Morey would settle for a Wolves package that included DLO, McDaniels and several future 1st-round picks. I think he'd prefer that over Beasley, Beverley, McDaniels and several future firsts.

The rub is...

Isn't D'Angelo Russell sort of an anti-analytics player in some ways? He's certainly a different type of player than the guy who Morey hitched his wagon to in Houston previously.

Russell has taken 1,062 free throws in his career. (8.7 per game)
Harden has taken 800 or more in 5 different seasons. (3.7 per game)

He helped bring that out of Harden... so maybe he sees something in Russell... AND thinks he can reach him unlike others.

Morey is hitching his wagon to Embiid for starters. As Wolvesfan mentioned, having him on the backline definitely helps with DLO's defensive deficiencies. DLO played the most minutes on a 14th-ranked defensive unit in Brooklyn a couple years ago with Jarrett Allen to help anchor the paint, so we know that it's possible for him to be on a solid defensive team.

I also think Thybulle is an absolute monster defensively and will probably see even more floor time with Simmons gone. With all due respect to McDaniels and Vando, the Embiid/Thybulle pairing is by far better defensively than anything Minnesota has on its current roster to go along with DLO.

Bottom-line....The Sixers could really use a perimeter ball handler and confident shot maker whose defensive deficiencies can be largely masked by the rest of the roster. DLO fits that profile.

I agree with some of the others....DLO for Simmons is a win/win.

And Danny Green and Tobias Harris are elite defenders also, and even Seth Curry has a good defensive reputation. But sure, Embiid (and others) might help clean up some of Dlo's messes on defense, but I think his main issue on defense (as well as Beasley's) is a total lack of understanding of team defense and rotation and a resulting inability to defend the perimeter. You can have four elite defenders like Philly will have out there much of the time (5 with Simmons), and a good offensive team will still exploit Russell's ineptness in preventing wide-open 3-point looks. Was there anything more painful last year than watching the Wolves try to defend the perimeter when the backcourt was Russell and Beasley? That's why I still think Dlo will be a bitter pill for Morey to swallow if that's the best he can get out of the Wolves. IMO opinion Dlo for Simmons is a huge win for the Wolves, but insufficient for Philly.

But let's say I'm wrong, and I really hope I am on this one. I thought Anthony Edwards was awful on defense last year. If we were able to swap Dlo for Simmons, would Edwards deficiencies on defense still doom the Wolves to a bottom half rating? I would argue that Edwards won't hurt the Wolves' defense as much as Dlo would hurt the 76ers. Even though he was stupid and unaware on D at times, Ant's length and athleticism allows his to recover better than Dlo, and his perimeter defense was not as glaringly bad as Russell's and Beasley's. Where Ant frustrated me most, and this was a recurring issue in college also, was effort. While his on-ball defense could be impressive at times, at other times his lackadaisical attitude led to easy buckets. And even more frustrating for me was Ant's propensity to not get back on defense. What can fix this? Toughness by Finch...yank his ass off the court if he gets beat down the court. Also, I don't expect a tough veteran like Beverley to be very forgiving if Ant lollygags down the court (and that goes for KAT too) He needs to be better if we are going to get stops.

The Wolves could potentially be historically terrible defensively this season with the current roster.

They were close last season... fortunately, Sacramento and Portland beat them to the punch.

KG4Ever wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:If Rosas pulls off the Beasley, McDaniels, Prince and picks package for Simmons I'll raise my hands and applaud.

Rosas would have turned 2 "assets" that he inherent in Covington and Gorgui into a 25 All NBA talent under 4 years of control. Massive props on to Rosas for that.

Are you kidding? McDaniels is a stud and you do realize the Wolves would have to add a whole bevy of draft picks too. The only trade that makes sense without killing the future is to trade DLO (so Morey can sell the trade) along with a couple picks. If we need to throw in Bolmaro or Naz, I can live with that. But McDaniels is the type of young two way player that the Wolves rarely ever have and it would be nice to build around him and Ant.

KG, I love Jaden's potential, but we're getting ahead of ourselves if we call him a stud. While I and others marveled at his maturity and footwork on defense, his rookie stats were not very good at all. He averaged 10.2/5.5/1.7 per 36...very weak. His PER was below 10, and his ORtg and DRtg were 108 and 116, respectively. He had a negative VORP and a very meagre ws/48 of .046. He shot only 60% on free throws, worse than Ben Simmons! I would say his only favorable stat last year was his 36.4 % on threes, and he proved that wasn't a fluke in Summer League...I think he will be a reliable 3-point shooter.

And speaking of Summer League, the Wolves were public about featuring him. But despite being featured and playing against rookies and G-Leaguers, he didn't even make the All Summer League teams. I'm sorry, but a second year player who started 27 games his rookie year and is given the keys to the car in Summer League simply has to impress enough to make one of the all-star teams, and Jaden didn't.

I admit that McDaniels may be one of those unique players where the eye test of his value doesn't show up in either the box score or the advanced stats. But as we review his rookie year stats, I think we also have to be honest and admit we may be overvaluing him. Do I like him, and do I think he has a bright future in this league? Absolutely. But would I pause even for a moment before including him in a package for a guy like Simmons. Nope. I just don't have enough faith in this Rosas-created roster if we don't pick up a game changer like Simmons.