Trade Talks Update

[AbeVigodaLive]

Man, it's crazy how quickly everyone has jumped to overvaluing everyone else's players and undervaluing Jimmy. Now, we are debating that Jimmy isn't worth Bam, Richardson and later round 1st?

I have to be honest and say I never saw the Heat play last season, but statistically speaking, both those players are mid-level role players at best. Richardson, while decent 3 point shooter and good defender, will never be a greatly efficient offensive player because he literally never gets to the FT line. And while PER is not a perfect stat, what it does tell you is if a player is efficient in what he does. Josh is well below average at 13. And while I love the idea of an athletic big like Bam......what is he? Is he a stud defender? If so, his stats don't show it. Low steals, blocks and middling rebounding. I get it, he is young....but so was Lip's guy John Collins....now he looks like a player.

While I want a deal to be done, I think the front office is doing what they have to do right now. We have leverage, despite what many say. Butler is a top 10-15 guy, and only one team gets to have him. That creates value for someone. Many have debated Jimmy's value in direct correlation to 16 incremental wins last year. While he may not have been the ONLY reason for this improvement, I think we can all agree that he was the catalyst for the majority. He will certainly improve his next team in the same fashion....again, creating a lot of value in a league where win now is important, especially to guys like Pat Reilly.

If the Wolves weren't "asking for the world" (which is a ridiculous statement given the guys I am hearing are being offered), then they wouldn't be doing their jobs. For anyone that has ever negotiated or taken training, one of the MAJOR components to ANY negotiations is to open big. You can always back off the demand, but rarely if ever can you come back and ask for more. It's silly to think that these guys should just be fine with asking for mediocre assets for a star player. Again, trust the process.

Richardson is nothing special....yet. But he is a competent two-way starter. He's already better than Wiggins in my opinion. He's also on a great contract. If you look at other advanced stats he does quite well.

We aren't going to get more than .60 or .70 cents on the dollar for Butler, so it really comes down to whether we benefit more from the best offer available or just rolling with him this season and then seeing what we can do with his cap space.

Agreed. The guy is improving. It's fair to think/expect that it continues. And that contract is already a good one... it could be excellent if any leap happens.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Man, it's crazy how quickly everyone has jumped to overvaluing everyone else's players and undervaluing Jimmy. Now, we are debating that Jimmy isn't worth Bam, Richardson and later round 1st?

I have to be honest and say I never saw the Heat play last season, but statistically speaking, both those players are mid-level role players at best. Richardson, while decent 3 point shooter and good defender, will never be a greatly efficient offensive player because he literally never gets to the FT line. And while PER is not a perfect stat, what it does tell you is if a player is efficient in what he does. Josh is well below average at 13. And while I love the idea of an athletic big like Bam......what is he? Is he a stud defender? If so, his stats don't show it. Low steals, blocks and middling rebounding. I get it, he is young....but so was Lip's guy John Collins....now he looks like a player.

While I want a deal to be done, I think the front office is doing what they have to do right now. We have leverage, despite what many say. Butler is a top 10-15 guy, and only one team gets to have him. That creates value for someone. Many have debated Jimmy's value in direct correlation to 16 incremental wins last year. While he may not have been the ONLY reason for this improvement, I think we can all agree that he was the catalyst for the majority. He will certainly improve his next team in the same fashion....again, creating a lot of value in a league where win now is important, especially to guys like Pat Reilly.

If the Wolves weren't "asking for the world" (which is a ridiculous statement given the guys I am hearing are being offered), then they wouldn't be doing their jobs. For anyone that has ever negotiated or taken training, one of the MAJOR components to ANY negotiations is to open big. You can always back off the demand, but rarely if ever can you come back and ask for more. It's silly to think that these guys should just be fine with asking for mediocre assets for a star player. Again, trust the process.

I disagree that Richardson and Bam aren't enough. The fact is that Jimmy has now burned 2 bridges and very clearly has become an NBA diva and people are noticing around the league. He's not a no-brainer because of that potential locker room cancer vibe he is giving off. That immediately takes off the asking for the world deals because he could come in and just nuke the locker room with his bullshit entitlement.

Bam was a rookie last year. To use that as saying he's that guy is ridiculous. His athletic profile allows him to defend the paint and the perimeter. I see him basically as a younger version of what Taj brings us minus the mid-range shooting which is fine by me. 12/10/3 and 1 block per 36 is the kind of glue guy who doesn't need the ball that we need in our starting lineup.

Richardson has position versatility to play both wing spots. He's solid in multiple facets of the game. He does't dominate the ball from Wiggins and Towns. I think a long-term wing rotation of Wiggins/Richardson/Okogie and possibly KBD when we want to go bigger is a solid rotation. I could actually get excited about a long-term team of:

Tyus
Okogie/Richardson
Wiggins/KBD
Bam
Towns

With Patton still an unknown and a lottery pick this year that is a team I could get excited about again. It's unlikely to happen, but I would love to add Kemba to that team if Tyus doesn't step up his scoring aggression this year because that team is missing a guy who can get his shot off the dribble when needed.

[Duke13]

I like Tyus' approach to the game but man if he doesn't improve his shot or ability to finish his ceiling is very very low. It's tough watching him try and beat his man off the dribble and finish, he really struggles in the area. I won't be opposed to moving him to Phoenix if the deal is right.

[Monster]

I like Tyus' approach to the game but man if he doesn't improve his shot or ability to finish his ceiling is very very low. It's tough watching him try and beat his man off the dribble and finish, he really struggles in the area. I won't be opposed to moving him to Phoenix if the deal is right.

I also agree with what you are seeing Duke. The thing about Tyus is that he is still young I think there is a chance for him to develop. I also wonder if a different offense and coaching scheme wouldn't enhance some of the things he does well. Last night some of his passes weren't even on target. I think I would have to get a first round pick type value for him (which might sound crazy) but I'm not excited about the idea of moving him especially when we don't have anyone else locked in there for next season or even if Teague opts in beyond next season.

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

I like the way tyus runs the team. Right now, i think he's maybe trying to be something he isnt; a scoring pg. Maybe thats what thibs wants him to do or he feels he needs to because no one on that second unit can create a shot for themselves.

To me, that's why he was always so effective as a starter with our group of guys. With guys like kat, wiggs, and last season with butler, we need a pg without sticky hands that will get the ball to the guys in their spot. I think he can hit an open shot when his defender gets pulled away to help, but he isnt nearly as effective trying to create his own.

Defensively, he is smart and hustles. He gives up size, but he is active enough to make up for it.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Creating his own offense has always been Tyus's biggest problem. He's a great backup PG and can be a good starter IF he's more in a caretaker role like he was last year starting with Butler and KAT. The guy almost always ends up on the plus side of plus/minus, so he's obviously doing something right out there.

He is one of the few draft picks that has actually met or exceeded expectations for this franchise. Refreshing.

[Lipoli390]

Man, it's crazy how quickly everyone has jumped to overvaluing everyone else's players and undervaluing Jimmy. Now, we are debating that Jimmy isn't worth Bam, Richardson and later round 1st?

I have to be honest and say I never saw the Heat play last season, but statistically speaking, both those players are mid-level role players at best. Richardson, while decent 3 point shooter and good defender, will never be a greatly efficient offensive player because he literally never gets to the FT line. And while PER is not a perfect stat, what it does tell you is if a player is efficient in what he does. Josh is well below average at 13. And while I love the idea of an athletic big like Bam......what is he? Is he a stud defender? If so, his stats don't show it. Low steals, blocks and middling rebounding. I get it, he is young....but so was Lip's guy John Collins....now he looks like a player.

While I want a deal to be done, I think the front office is doing what they have to do right now. We have leverage, despite what many say. Butler is a top 10-15 guy, and only one team gets to have him. That creates value for someone. Many have debated Jimmy's value in direct correlation to 16 incremental wins last year. While he may not have been the ONLY reason for this improvement, I think we can all agree that he was the catalyst for the majority. He will certainly improve his next team in the same fashion....again, creating a lot of value in a league where win now is important, especially to guys like Pat Reilly.

If the Wolves weren't "asking for the world" (which is a ridiculous statement given the guys I am hearing are being offered), then they wouldn't be doing their jobs. For anyone that has ever negotiated or taken training, one of the MAJOR components to ANY negotiations is to open big. You can always back off the demand, but rarely if ever can you come back and ask for more. It's silly to think that these guys should just be fine with asking for mediocre assets for a star player. Again, trust the process.

I disagree that Richardson and Bam aren't enough. The fact is that Jimmy has now burned 2 bridges and very clearly has become an NBA diva and people are noticing around the league. He's not a no-brainer because of that potential locker room cancer vibe he is giving off. That immediately takes off the asking for the world deals because he could come in and just nuke the locker room with his bullshit entitlement.

Bam was a rookie last year. To use that as saying he's that guy is ridiculous. His athletic profile allows him to defend the paint and the perimeter. I see him basically as a younger version of what Taj brings us minus the mid-range shooting which is fine by me. 12/10/3 and 1 block per 36 is the kind of glue guy who doesn't need the ball that we need in our starting lineup.

Richardson has position versatility to play both wing spots. He's solid in multiple facets of the game. He does't dominate the ball from Wiggins and Towns. I think a long-term wing rotation of Wiggins/Richardson/Okogie and possibly KBD when we want to go bigger is a solid rotation. I could actually get excited about a long-term team of:

Tyus
Okogie/Richardson
Wiggins/KBD
Bam
Towns

With Patton still an unknown and a lottery pick this year that is a team I could get excited about again. It's unlikely to happen, but I would love to add Kemba to that team if Tyus doesn't step up his scoring aggression this year because that team is missing a guy who can get his shot off the dribble when needed.

I agree completely, Kahns. I could get excited about that as well. Getting Kemba would more than double that excitement, but we both know that's improbably.

[Lipoli390]

I like the way tyus runs the team. Right now, i think he's maybe trying to be something he isnt; a scoring pg. Maybe thats what thibs wants him to do or he feels he needs to because no one on that second unit can create a shot for themselves.

To me, that's why he was always so effective as a starter with our group of guys. With guys like kat, wiggs, and last season with butler, we need a pg without sticky hands that will get the ball to the guys in their spot. I think he can hit an open shot when his defender gets pulled away to help, but he isnt nearly as effective trying to create his own.

Defensively, he is smart and hustles. He gives up size, but he is active enough to make up for it.

I agree. If he has some big-time scorers around him, he can be a very effective PG even as a starter. I wouldn't trade him. Other than Jimmy, the only guy I'd have on the trading block right now is Teague - whether it's this year or next summer. I'd be prepared to move Wiggins as well, but I first want to see what he does under a better head coach before putting him on the block.

[Monster]

It seems this is the direction it's been heading anyway but Kyrie just said at a Celtics event he plans to resign with Boston and supposedly that's what he has communicated to Boston as well. Of course he could change his mind but assuming he is highly like to resign either he Celtics that makes Butler's availability interesting.

So it seems unlikely Butler is going to be teaming up with Kyrie. That takes one player off the market both good and bad. It means one less max type player that's likely available but also one less likely guy you can get with 2 max slots and the Kyrie and Butler connection is less of a thing. I still think there could be a team that comes out of nowhere with an offer for Butler.

Edit: Also...

https://twitter.com/dannyleroux/status/1047988442771087360?s=21

-While Kyrie's statement today is obviously not binding, it would make the remaining free agent point guards even more in demand (Kemba, Bledsoe, Rubio, potentially Dragic and Teague)-

[TheGrey08]

A lot of interesting posts and things going on here.

1) I definitely hope the team hold firm expecting at least a solid deal and not some of the garbage we've seen rumored in the media. If those 3 reported by Wolfson are it, then he can just sit on the bench here until a team steps up. The one mentioned on here that intrigues me the most is Richardson, Bam, 1st while keeping Dieng (he's a grinder/hustle type guy and that's gotta be a big plus both in the locker room and on the court.

2) If teams really are lowballing that badly, other teams who had assumed they were not in the running, could jump in with offers that would at least increase demand and pressure other teams to step up. Basically the weaker the offers, the more teams that will be throwing offers at the Wolves.

3) The national media is quite the beast. All these leaks that just happen to all be essentially shitting on the Wolves (no leverage, all the Thibs-Butler gossip, weak offers, etc). Far more times than not they seem to always try to report drama with the Wolves. I think quite of bit of the story surrounding Butler is overblown, with the exception of him wanting to be traded because that's pretty cut and dry. I think enough teams badly want him and are just trying to play it down/play the game.

4) The Kyric news that he's going to stay in Boston is very interesting too. I think it makes Boston a wild card, but also makes Butler teaming up with another star next summer more challenging. Anything could happen at this point. Toronto, Boston, Miami, Philly, LAC, MEM, who knows.

5) Thibs has been very up and down for me (more down than up though), but if he pulls off a solid trade he at least deserves to play a ways into the season IMO. He could surprise us and even if he doesn't they can jettison him early next off season or late season if it's really bad. I think it will be really interesting seeing a team that is mostly players he brought in, minus the Butler problem. This could all end up being a blessing in disguise, but... this is Minnesota sports... we tend to be left disappointed sooooo many times.

At the moment I'm cautiously & nervously optimistic lol.