Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

FNG wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:FNG - Morey is an analytics guy and let's just say he has a LOT of confidence in himself. So I don't think he'll factor in fan sentiments. He's out to get the best deal possible to propel the Sixers to a championship during the Embiid era. He knows that, if DLO is healthy, he's much better than Beverley and a much better fit for the Sixers than either Beverley or Beasley. DLO is the only Wolves player who would actually fill the Sixers' need for a more offensive oriented lead guard to pair with Embiid and Harris. And if he's healthy, he'd good enough to help the Sixers remain in contention this upcoming season.

So I don't think fan sentiment will impact his interest in DLO. We don't know how interested Morey is in DLO. We've heard that Morey was irritated by Gersson's refusal to put DLO on the table for a possible deal. If true, that report tells us something. I think Morey would settle for a Wolves package that included DLO, McDaniels and several future 1st-round picks. I think he'd prefer that over Beasley, Beverley, McDaniels and several future firsts.

The rub is...

Isn't D'Angelo Russell sort of an anti-analytics player in some ways? He's certainly a different type of player than the guy who Morey hitched his wagon to in Houston previously.

Russell has taken 1,062 free throws in his career. (8.7 per game)
Harden has taken 800 or more in 5 different seasons. (3.7 per game)

He helped bring that out of Harden... so maybe he sees something in Russell... AND thinks he can reach him unlike others.

Morey is hitching his wagon to Embiid for starters. As Wolvesfan mentioned, having him on the backline definitely helps with DLO's defensive deficiencies. DLO played the most minutes on a 14th-ranked defensive unit in Brooklyn a couple years ago with Jarrett Allen to help anchor the paint, so we know that it's possible for him to be on a solid defensive team.

I also think Thybulle is an absolute monster defensively and will probably see even more floor time with Simmons gone. With all due respect to McDaniels and Vando, the Embiid/Thybulle pairing is by far better defensively than anything Minnesota has on its current roster to go along with DLO.

Bottom-line....The Sixers could really use a perimeter ball handler and confident shot maker whose defensive deficiencies can be largely masked by the rest of the roster. DLO fits that profile.

I agree with some of the others....DLO for Simmons is a win/win.

And Danny Green and Tobias Harris are elite defenders also, and even Seth Curry has a good defensive reputation. But sure, Embiid (and others) might help clean up some of Dlo's messes on defense, but I think his main issue on defense (as well as Beasley's) is a total lack of understanding of team defense and rotation and a resulting inability to defend the perimeter. You can have four elite defenders like Philly will have out there much of the time (5 with Simmons), and a good offensive team will still exploit Russell's ineptness in preventing wide-open 3-point looks. Was there anything more painful last year than watching the Wolves try to defend the perimeter when the backcourt was Russell and Beasley? That's why I still think Dlo will be a bitter pill for Morey to swallow if that's the best he can get out of the Wolves. IMO opinion Dlo for Simmons is a huge win for the Wolves, but insufficient for Philly.

But let's say I'm wrong, and I really hope I am on this one. I thought Anthony Edwards was awful on defense last year. If we were able to swap Dlo for Simmons, would Edwards deficiencies on defense still doom the Wolves to a bottom half rating? I would argue that Edwards won't hurt the Wolves' defense as much as Dlo would hurt the 76ers. Even though he was stupid and unaware on D at times, Ant's length and athleticism allows his to recover better than Dlo, and his perimeter defense was not as glaringly bad as Russell's and Beasley's. Where Ant frustrated me most, and this was a recurring issue in college also, was effort. While his on-ball defense could be impressive at times, at other times his lackadaisical attitude led to easy buckets. And even more frustrating for me was Ant's propensity to not get back on defense. What can fix this? Toughness by Finch...yank his ass off the court if he gets beat down the court. Also, I don't expect a tough veteran like Beverley to be very forgiving if Ant lollygags down the court (and that goes for KAT too) He needs to be better if we are going to get stops.

The Wolves could potentially be historically terrible defensively this season with the current roster.

They were close last season... fortunately, Sacramento and Portland beat them to the punch.

Sad, but very true. And that's why Dlo and Beasley for Simmons is the holy grail here. We unload two extraordinarily bad defenders who we can have little hope for improvement, and pick up the consensus best defender in the league who can be called upon to guard the other team's best player nightly. And while I'm sympathetic to the concern about our 3-point shooting after that trade, let's review the percentages last year of the 4 guys most likely to be on the court with Simmons:

KAT: 38.7
Beverley 38.2
Jaden: 36.4
Ant: 32.9 (but 34.9 after the break)

And the bench will have Naz (unorthodox, but still made 35.1%), J-Mac (35.9) and Prince (40%) And then there's Nowell backing up Ant, and while he only made 33.3% of his threes last year, his college and G League performance tells us there is a lot of upside there. That's 8 targets I feel comfortable getting open looks from Simmons...essentially everyone in the 11-man rotation except Josh and Vando. If we're running our offense properly and moving the ball around the perimeter, a team without Dlo and Beas should still get a lot of open looks beyond the arc, and recent history tells us we should convert those open looks at a rate higher than the league average.

FNG wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:FNG - Morey is an analytics guy and let's just say he has a LOT of confidence in himself. So I don't think he'll factor in fan sentiments. He's out to get the best deal possible to propel the Sixers to a championship during the Embiid era. He knows that, if DLO is healthy, he's much better than Beverley and a much better fit for the Sixers than either Beverley or Beasley. DLO is the only Wolves player who would actually fill the Sixers' need for a more offensive oriented lead guard to pair with Embiid and Harris. And if he's healthy, he'd good enough to help the Sixers remain in contention this upcoming season.

So I don't think fan sentiment will impact his interest in DLO. We don't know how interested Morey is in DLO. We've heard that Morey was irritated by Gersson's refusal to put DLO on the table for a possible deal. If true, that report tells us something. I think Morey would settle for a Wolves package that included DLO, McDaniels and several future 1st-round picks. I think he'd prefer that over Beasley, Beverley, McDaniels and several future firsts.

The rub is...

Isn't D'Angelo Russell sort of an anti-analytics player in some ways? He's certainly a different type of player than the guy who Morey hitched his wagon to in Houston previously.

Russell has taken 1,062 free throws in his career. (8.7 per game)
Harden has taken 800 or more in 5 different seasons. (3.7 per game)

He helped bring that out of Harden... so maybe he sees something in Russell... AND thinks he can reach him unlike others.

Morey is hitching his wagon to Embiid for starters. As Wolvesfan mentioned, having him on the backline definitely helps with DLO's defensive deficiencies. DLO played the most minutes on a 14th-ranked defensive unit in Brooklyn a couple years ago with Jarrett Allen to help anchor the paint, so we know that it's possible for him to be on a solid defensive team.

I also think Thybulle is an absolute monster defensively and will probably see even more floor time with Simmons gone. With all due respect to McDaniels and Vando, the Embiid/Thybulle pairing is by far better defensively than anything Minnesota has on its current roster to go along with DLO.

Bottom-line....The Sixers could really use a perimeter ball handler and confident shot maker whose defensive deficiencies can be largely masked by the rest of the roster. DLO fits that profile.

I agree with some of the others....DLO for Simmons is a win/win.

And Danny Green and Tobias Harris are elite defenders also, and even Seth Curry has a good defensive reputation. But sure, Embiid (and others) might help clean up some of Dlo's messes on defense, but I think his main issue on defense (as well as Beasley's) is a total lack of understanding of team defense and rotation and a resulting inability to defend the perimeter. You can have four elite defenders like Philly will have out there much of the time (5 with Simmons), and a good offensive team will still exploit Russell's ineptness in preventing wide-open 3-point looks. Was there anything more painful last year than watching the Wolves try to defend the perimeter when the backcourt was Russell and Beasley? That's why I still think Dlo will be a bitter pill for Morey to swallow if that's the best he can get out of the Wolves. IMO opinion Dlo for Simmons is a huge win for the Wolves, but insufficient for Philly.

But let's say I'm wrong, and I really hope I am on this one. I thought Anthony Edwards was awful on defense last year. If we were able to swap Dlo for Simmons, would Edwards deficiencies on defense still doom the Wolves to a bottom half rating? I would argue that Edwards won't hurt the Wolves' defense as much as Dlo would hurt the 76ers. Even though he was stupid and unaware on D at times, Ant's length and athleticism allows his to recover better than Dlo, and his perimeter defense was not as glaringly bad as Russell's and Beasley's. Where Ant frustrated me most, and this was a recurring issue in college also, was effort. While his on-ball defense could be impressive at times, at other times his lackadaisical attitude led to easy buckets. And even more frustrating for me was Ant's propensity to not get back on defense. What can fix this? Toughness by Finch...yank his ass off the court if he gets beat down the court. Also, I don't expect a tough veteran like Beverley to be very forgiving if Ant lollygags down the court (and that goes for KAT too) He needs to be better if we are going to get stops.

Well, if you read above, we just said DLO played the MOST minutes on a Brooklyn team that was ranked 14th in defensive rating just two years ago and that was with far less capable defenders around him than he'd have on Philly. Yet you think one weak defender can tank an entire defense? This has already been proven wrong by DLO himself.

The bottom line is that there are plenty of top flight defensive teams that have had one-way offensive players in their main rotation. I think the Sixers defense can overcome DLO. The problem with the Wolves is that we currently have four of those guys in DLO, Ant, KAT, and Beasley. And even more painful is that three of them are being relied upon to be team leaders. If we swap out Simmons for DLO, it goes a long ways toward achieving better roster balance.

If we're calling McDaniels a stud then what should we be calling Simmons at this point? It would hurt all of us to see a homegrown draft pick shipped out before realizing his potential but if it lands us a superior young player it has to be looked at. I really like McDaniels potential but I think it is a big stretch to assume he ever becomes the player that Simmons already is. I guess the only thing that really matters is what Morey values at this point to fit next to Embid. I personally would only stop short at dealing Kat and Ant. Other combinations of players would merit different negotiation tactics, for instance if Philly is insisting on Dlo and McDaniels I think we would need to lessen the draft capital and we would really be hurting for a PG. I am honestly skeptical that we have the pieces to even get Simmons, I do find it funny that so many of us are split on making a choice between DLo and McDaniels when the reality is that to realistically have a shot, I think we would need to include both of them if that is what Philly wanted. That may be more than some here want to give up, I think it would be challenging too but it would give us a net gain in terms of overall talent in my opinion.

KG4Ever wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:If Rosas pulls off the Beasley, McDaniels, Prince and picks package for Simmons I'll raise my hands and applaud.

Rosas would have turned 2 "assets" that he inherent in Covington and Gorgui into a 25 All NBA talent under 4 years of control. Massive props on to Rosas for that.

Are you kidding? McDaniels is a stud and you do realize the Wolves would have to add a whole bevy of draft picks too. The only trade that makes sense without killing the future is to trade DLO (so Morey can sell the trade) along with a couple picks. If we need to throw in Bolmaro or Naz, I can live with that. But McDaniels is the type of young two way player that the Wolves rarely ever have and it would be nice to build around him and Ant.

So I like Mcdaniels a lot also. You can go back to draft night and you will see i loved the pick. He even exceeded my expectations. Just think at the moment he is a 3 and D guy while Simmons is an All NBA talent, who is still 25 and has 4 years left on his contract. Mcdaniels might become that stud player but he has a long ways to go to become that. I think we love Mcdaniels a ton around here because the Wolves don't draft above average players late often. So when we actually hit on a late pick we feel obligated to want to hold on to that player.

Q12543 wrote:

FNG wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:FNG - Morey is an analytics guy and let's just say he has a LOT of confidence in himself. So I don't think he'll factor in fan sentiments. He's out to get the best deal possible to propel the Sixers to a championship during the Embiid era. He knows that, if DLO is healthy, he's much better than Beverley and a much better fit for the Sixers than either Beverley or Beasley. DLO is the only Wolves player who would actually fill the Sixers' need for a more offensive oriented lead guard to pair with Embiid and Harris. And if he's healthy, he'd good enough to help the Sixers remain in contention this upcoming season.

So I don't think fan sentiment will impact his interest in DLO. We don't know how interested Morey is in DLO. We've heard that Morey was irritated by Gersson's refusal to put DLO on the table for a possible deal. If true, that report tells us something. I think Morey would settle for a Wolves package that included DLO, McDaniels and several future 1st-round picks. I think he'd prefer that over Beasley, Beverley, McDaniels and several future firsts.

The rub is...

Isn't D'Angelo Russell sort of an anti-analytics player in some ways? He's certainly a different type of player than the guy who Morey hitched his wagon to in Houston previously.

Russell has taken 1,062 free throws in his career. (8.7 per game)
Harden has taken 800 or more in 5 different seasons. (3.7 per game)

He helped bring that out of Harden... so maybe he sees something in Russell... AND thinks he can reach him unlike others.

Morey is hitching his wagon to Embiid for starters. As Wolvesfan mentioned, having him on the backline definitely helps with DLO's defensive deficiencies. DLO played the most minutes on a 14th-ranked defensive unit in Brooklyn a couple years ago with Jarrett Allen to help anchor the paint, so we know that it's possible for him to be on a solid defensive team.

I also think Thybulle is an absolute monster defensively and will probably see even more floor time with Simmons gone. With all due respect to McDaniels and Vando, the Embiid/Thybulle pairing is by far better defensively than anything Minnesota has on its current roster to go along with DLO.

Bottom-line....The Sixers could really use a perimeter ball handler and confident shot maker whose defensive deficiencies can be largely masked by the rest of the roster. DLO fits that profile.

I agree with some of the others....DLO for Simmons is a win/win.

And Danny Green and Tobias Harris are elite defenders also, and even Seth Curry has a good defensive reputation. But sure, Embiid (and others) might help clean up some of Dlo's messes on defense, but I think his main issue on defense (as well as Beasley's) is a total lack of understanding of team defense and rotation and a resulting inability to defend the perimeter. You can have four elite defenders like Philly will have out there much of the time (5 with Simmons), and a good offensive team will still exploit Russell's ineptness in preventing wide-open 3-point looks. Was there anything more painful last year than watching the Wolves try to defend the perimeter when the backcourt was Russell and Beasley? That's why I still think Dlo will be a bitter pill for Morey to swallow if that's the best he can get out of the Wolves. IMO opinion Dlo for Simmons is a huge win for the Wolves, but insufficient for Philly.

But let's say I'm wrong, and I really hope I am on this one. I thought Anthony Edwards was awful on defense last year. If we were able to swap Dlo for Simmons, would Edwards deficiencies on defense still doom the Wolves to a bottom half rating? I would argue that Edwards won't hurt the Wolves' defense as much as Dlo would hurt the 76ers. Even though he was stupid and unaware on D at times, Ant's length and athleticism allows his to recover better than Dlo, and his perimeter defense was not as glaringly bad as Russell's and Beasley's. Where Ant frustrated me most, and this was a recurring issue in college also, was effort. While his on-ball defense could be impressive at times, at other times his lackadaisical attitude led to easy buckets. And even more frustrating for me was Ant's propensity to not get back on defense. What can fix this? Toughness by Finch...yank his ass off the court if he gets beat down the court. Also, I don't expect a tough veteran like Beverley to be very forgiving if Ant lollygags down the court (and that goes for KAT too) He needs to be better if we are going to get stops.

Well, if you read above, we just said DLO played the MOST minutes on a Brooklyn team that was ranked 14th in defensive rating just two years ago and that was with far less capable defenders around him than he'd have on Philly. Yet you think one weak defender can tank an entire defense? This has already been proven wrong by DLO himself.

The bottom line is that there are plenty of top flight defensive teams that have had one-way offensive players in their main rotation. I think the Sixers defense can overcome DLO. The problem with the Wolves is that we currently have four of those guys in DLO, Ant, KAT, and Beasley. And even more painful is that three of them are being relied upon to be team leaders. If we swap out Simmons for DLO, it goes a long ways toward achieving better roster balance.

Fair point, Q. I can't explain Dlo's performance in 2018-9...I don't know if anyone can. Kinda like Norm Cash in 1961 (obscure baseball weird stat...look it up) Russell had the best defensive rating of his career, and was only 1 point short of his best offensive rating. His negative spread was only -3, while the closest he has gotten to that was a -9 last season (108, 117). Suffice it to say, 2018-9 was an outlier year for Russell, and not one that he has been able to duplicate. That said, I didn't say Dlo would tank Philly's defense...they have two many strong defenders to have that happen. But I think we can all agree that they wouldn't be the second best defense like they were last season if they substituted Dlo for Simmons. They'd still be good, but I would have them somewhere near the bottom of the top 10.

- Jaden McDaniels
- Malik Beasley
- Leandro Bolmaro's draft rights
- Naz Reid
- Jaylen Nowell
- 2022 first-round pick / 2023 first-round pick
- 2024 first-round pick / 2025 first-round pick
- 2026 first-round pick / 2027 first-round pick
- 2028 first-round pick / 2029 first-round pick

These are essentially the assets Minnesota has at their disposal to get a Ben Simmons trade completed while retaining the threesome of Karl-Anthony Towns, D'Angelo Russell, and Anthony Edwards. We can talk about different scenarios and what hypothetical lineup is better until we're blue in the face, but keeping those three is the vision. All available reporting indicates that's the case whether you like it, love it, or completely hate it. The Wolves view Simmons as the perfect addition to what they already have.

I believe Gersson Rosas probably views this list the way that I do. None of these players or picks will amount to the production that Simmons provides right now. They are all expendable in the conversation of adding an All-NBA talent. That doesn't mean that they don't have value, though. I think we've been witnessing Rosas' patience when it pertains to what he'll eventually give up for Simmons. I'm obviously not behind the scenes, but I continue to believe that Rosas would give up the maximum four first-round picks if it meant he could keep the assembled young talent he already has out of the trade package. How feasible that is would be a different conversation, but it alludes to my next point.

There's enough there to get a deal done, especially when you consider what the market for Simmons looks like in this particular situation. I've explained my view of the market numerous times and feel no need to do so again, but the Wolves will have an opportunity to get Simmons without including their 'three' and I think that's exactly what we'll see happen.

The biggest unknown to me is what the exact cost will be. How many first-round picks? How many swaps? Will both Malik Beasley and Jaden McDaniels be included? Does Minnesota keep Patrick Beverley in the process? These are the questions I have when it comes to this topic. I'd be genuinely surprised if Simmons doesn't land in Minnesota at this point.

FNG wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

FNG wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:FNG - Morey is an analytics guy and let's just say he has a LOT of confidence in himself. So I don't think he'll factor in fan sentiments. He's out to get the best deal possible to propel the Sixers to a championship during the Embiid era. He knows that, if DLO is healthy, he's much better than Beverley and a much better fit for the Sixers than either Beverley or Beasley. DLO is the only Wolves player who would actually fill the Sixers' need for a more offensive oriented lead guard to pair with Embiid and Harris. And if he's healthy, he'd good enough to help the Sixers remain in contention this upcoming season.

So I don't think fan sentiment will impact his interest in DLO. We don't know how interested Morey is in DLO. We've heard that Morey was irritated by Gersson's refusal to put DLO on the table for a possible deal. If true, that report tells us something. I think Morey would settle for a Wolves package that included DLO, McDaniels and several future 1st-round picks. I think he'd prefer that over Beasley, Beverley, McDaniels and several future firsts.

The rub is...

Isn't D'Angelo Russell sort of an anti-analytics player in some ways? He's certainly a different type of player than the guy who Morey hitched his wagon to in Houston previously.

Russell has taken 1,062 free throws in his career. (8.7 per game)
Harden has taken 800 or more in 5 different seasons. (3.7 per game)

He helped bring that out of Harden... so maybe he sees something in Russell... AND thinks he can reach him unlike others.

Morey is hitching his wagon to Embiid for starters. As Wolvesfan mentioned, having him on the backline definitely helps with DLO's defensive deficiencies. DLO played the most minutes on a 14th-ranked defensive unit in Brooklyn a couple years ago with Jarrett Allen to help anchor the paint, so we know that it's possible for him to be on a solid defensive team.

I also think Thybulle is an absolute monster defensively and will probably see even more floor time with Simmons gone. With all due respect to McDaniels and Vando, the Embiid/Thybulle pairing is by far better defensively than anything Minnesota has on its current roster to go along with DLO.

Bottom-line....The Sixers could really use a perimeter ball handler and confident shot maker whose defensive deficiencies can be largely masked by the rest of the roster. DLO fits that profile.

I agree with some of the others....DLO for Simmons is a win/win.

And Danny Green and Tobias Harris are elite defenders also, and even Seth Curry has a good defensive reputation. But sure, Embiid (and others) might help clean up some of Dlo's messes on defense, but I think his main issue on defense (as well as Beasley's) is a total lack of understanding of team defense and rotation and a resulting inability to defend the perimeter. You can have four elite defenders like Philly will have out there much of the time (5 with Simmons), and a good offensive team will still exploit Russell's ineptness in preventing wide-open 3-point looks. Was there anything more painful last year than watching the Wolves try to defend the perimeter when the backcourt was Russell and Beasley? That's why I still think Dlo will be a bitter pill for Morey to swallow if that's the best he can get out of the Wolves. IMO opinion Dlo for Simmons is a huge win for the Wolves, but insufficient for Philly.

But let's say I'm wrong, and I really hope I am on this one. I thought Anthony Edwards was awful on defense last year. If we were able to swap Dlo for Simmons, would Edwards deficiencies on defense still doom the Wolves to a bottom half rating? I would argue that Edwards won't hurt the Wolves' defense as much as Dlo would hurt the 76ers. Even though he was stupid and unaware on D at times, Ant's length and athleticism allows his to recover better than Dlo, and his perimeter defense was not as glaringly bad as Russell's and Beasley's. Where Ant frustrated me most, and this was a recurring issue in college also, was effort. While his on-ball defense could be impressive at times, at other times his lackadaisical attitude led to easy buckets. And even more frustrating for me was Ant's propensity to not get back on defense. What can fix this? Toughness by Finch...yank his ass off the court if he gets beat down the court. Also, I don't expect a tough veteran like Beverley to be very forgiving if Ant lollygags down the court (and that goes for KAT too) He needs to be better if we are going to get stops.

Well, if you read above, we just said DLO played the MOST minutes on a Brooklyn team that was ranked 14th in defensive rating just two years ago and that was with far less capable defenders around him than he'd have on Philly. Yet you think one weak defender can tank an entire defense? This has already been proven wrong by DLO himself.

The bottom line is that there are plenty of top flight defensive teams that have had one-way offensive players in their main rotation. I think the Sixers defense can overcome DLO. The problem with the Wolves is that we currently have four of those guys in DLO, Ant, KAT, and Beasley. And even more painful is that three of them are being relied upon to be team leaders. If we swap out Simmons for DLO, it goes a long ways toward achieving better roster balance.

Fair point, Q. I can't explain Dlo's performance in 2018-9...I don't know if anyone can. Kinda like Norm Cash in 1961 (obscure baseball weird stat...look it up) Russell had the best defensive rating of his career, and was only 1 point short of his best offensive rating. His negative spread was only -3, while the closest he has gotten to that was a -9 last season (108, 117). Suffice it to say, 2018-9 was an outlier year for Russell, and not one that he has been able to duplicate. That said, I didn't say Dlo would tank Philly's defense...they have two many strong defenders to have that happen. But I think we can all agree that they wouldn't be the second best defense like they were last season if they substituted Dlo for Simmons. They'd still be good, but I would have them somewhere near the bottom of the top 10.

"...somewhere near the bottom of the top 10."

As a Wolves fan this sounds like a pretty good pickup line.

I'm just gauging the crowd here. I'm also not asking if Philadelphia would or should take this offer, but would you be willing to trade Malik Beasley, Taurean Prince, and four first-round picks for Ben Simmons? If that was the overall cost for Simmons -- regardless of a two-team or three-team trade -- are you in or are you out?

Agree with Cam in that trading DLO for Ben Simmons solves one problem, but creates another. Ideally you want the two of them to play together to offset each others weaknesses. Especially if Malik Beasley is sent out as well. We would loose alot of 3pt fire power and gain nothing there. Although defensively this lineup would be great:

Beverley
Edwards
McDaniels
Simmons
Towns

Camden wrote:I'm just gauging the crowd here. I'm also not asking if Philadelphia would or should take this offer, but would you be willing to trade Malik Beasley, Taurean Prince, and four first-round picks for Ben Simmons? If that was the overall cost for Simmons -- regardless of a two-team or three-team trade -- are you in or are you out?

Depends on the protection of the picks, especially 2024 onwards. We don't want to do a 'Brooklyn' when they traded for KG.