Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:The other issue with KAT defensively is that even if he does buckle down and get better on that end, he is so valuable on offense that he can't afford foul trouble or even exert too much energy on that end. So even without his defensive positioning issues, he still is a bit capped out on how good defensively he can be given his role on the other end of the court. This is why some advocate he should play PF instead of C.

Practically speaking though, KAT isn't going anywhere this offseason, no matter how poorly we perform. However, I think due to the position he plays and his primary weakness as a defender makes it nearly impossible to build anything but a moderately decent playoff team around him at best.

I guess one approach would be to just seek to entertain and go all-out for ball handlers and shooters to try to build a top 5 offensive team and accept the fact that the only way we win is by out-gunning teams.

I disagree with your conclusion that we can't be more than a moderately decent playoff team around KAT. Add an elite two-way wing like Giannis, Kawhi, or Paul George and the Wolves could become a championship contender with KAT. The same result if, in the alternative, the Wolves would move KAT to PF and add a Rudy Gobert equivalent. By the way, none of the players I mentioned were top 5 picks. The Wolves, like any team aspiring to contend for a championship, needs two all-stars in their prime. Right now, we have only one. For the Wolves, the other allstar needs to be an excellent defender - although I think this team would be a contender even if our other star were the defensively-challenged James Harden.

That player is not on the roster now. None of our existing prospects will even be close to George or Leonard, even at their peaks. So by the time we draft and develop that type of player, KAT will have wanted out and lost via a forced trade.

Like I keep saying, building around KAT requires the same three things a team needs if they are starting from scratch. He's the worst type of star player to build around because of the position he plays.

You can get the same value for KAT 3 years from now as right now. No team can offer anything close to fair value. Unless you get a top pick like Zion plus quality fillers, or Doncic plus quality fillers top pick, then it's not even considerable. 4 1st round picks which would all be late picks are nearly worthless. Name the last late 1st rounder that has been an all star? If you get a prospect in the next 3 years who might be projected to be a superstar, then maybe it's worth discussing.

Just dumping KAT like the KG trade, suck just to suck isn't a good strategy. So I agree we could trade him, if the deal makes sense. I don't see a prospect in next years draft that looks legit yet, maybe in the next few seasons.

Late round picks that were all stars? Jimmy Butler, Rudy Gobert come to mind. Draymond Green and Jokic were 2nd round picks. I still with you tho why Trade Towns because...you can get legit impact players with the pick/s we already have. I'm not saying we will but again I'd rather have something to build around than just starting from scratch.

Good calls, yes I meant specifically late 1sts, last 10 picks or whatever. You have maybe a 5% chance on hitting on a late 1st. All things being even, then being the Wolves you have to cut that down 80% so now you have 1% chance of getting a player. lol

If they make a move, now is as good a time as any with such a long break. They would have tune to practice and integrate the new member or members.

lipoli390 wrote:A lot of the elite teams in the League this season don't have starting centers who are particularly good defensively. The Clippers' Zubac is big, but not particularly good defensively unless your dumb enough (like Wolves players last night) to dribble right at him and then stop in front of him to launch an awkward jump shot rather than dribbling past him or taking a step-back jumper. The Bucks' Brook Lopez isn't much of a defender. Neither Bam nor Leonard is a particularly good interior defender for the Heat. The Celtics Kanter isn't known for his defense. I wouldn't call Jokic a particularly good defender. What all those teams have are very good defenders at the wing and/or PG positions. And they play well defensively as a team. KAT isn't the problem. He's part of the solution. Trading KAT would be in line with the boneheaded tradition of the Wolves history of front office follies. It's the job of the Wolves front office to find and keep the level of talent and the right mix of players to put around KAT. Right now, he needs three things:

Just a bit of quibbling here with a couple of names...

Bam Abedayo is incredible on defense. Stats and eye tests confirm it. There have been many stories about his defense. His versatility, in space and at the rim, makes him so unique and good.
Brook Lopez has been a very good rim protector in Milwaukee. He's been lauded as being one of the key cogs in the defensive system they've been able to create there.



[Note: Ha. I guess I should have kept reading before responding... I see others saw those, too.]

Well, considering I think I helped Q reach this conclusion... let me reiterate my take.

Towns is awesome. He's the unicorn everybody has been talking about for years. He's able to do things nobody else can do. He's most definitely a top talent in the entire league. There's never been a guy that big do what he can do... in NBA history. WOW!

And it's probably not enough.

For me, it's less about Towns... and more about the NBA. This league is catered to wings. I don't know how much more evidence we need on this. I talk about it all the time. It's blatantly obvious to me.

A 20-year-old wing gets 20 shots and 9+ free throws per game... KAT has led his team in shots ONE time in 5 seasons... and that was barely. He averages 17.5 shots per game and a career high free throws, just over 6 per game.

Doncic gets the ball EVERY possession (if Dallas wants him to). Same with Harden. Leonard. Giannis. George. LeBron. Et al. They get more foul calls. They get pummeled on the block from smaller players a heckuva lot less. They get schemed against with zones a lot less effectively. They don't get doubled hard with their back to the basket, forcing a pass as often. Etc.

The only truly top guy not a wing is Anthony Davis. And we saw what happened to him without another top 5 wing player next to him. The NBA is catered to wings. It's obvious. And it's a shame for an NBA franchise building around a truly elite and incredible offensive big.

Maybe there's a way to change the NBA. Be a leader. Scheme something to unlock Towns. Bring back the BIG. But does anybody believe this coaching staff is that crew? More importantly, does anybody believe an organization led by Glen Taylor (who failed miserably to surround two other All NBA bigs with quality talent to almost unprecedented levels) is up for the task the 3rd time around -- in a league where Minnesota is one of the LEAST desirable places to play for NBA players?

I'm not saying to trade Towns necessarily.
What I'm saying is that it's A LOT harder to build a truly great team around an elite big than an elite wing. And it's not particular close in 2020.

If we're cool with that... fine. But there seems to be a lower ceiling.

For those of you suggesting the possibility of a KAT trade, I think you are missing on two key points. The first is the second and sometimes third allstars on the teams, and the second is that when you double those wing players they pass to teammates that actually knock down their open 3's.

KAT isn't the problem, the supporting cast and a lack of identity on this team is. Our elite big man is scoring 26 pts a game with incredible efficiency while pulling down double digit rebounds. Put a defensive big next to him, and get guys that score above a 50 TS%.

Trading Kat would be insane. He hasn't even peaked yet and he loves being here. Its great seeing Wiggs come around with the new coaching staff. Now we have to draft and develop players wisely to fit around our two stars and we need to replicate what the most successful organizations have done and find and develop talent. Its a process and will take time. Enjoy the process.

sjm34 wrote:For those of you suggesting the possibility of a KAT trade, I think you are missing on two key points. The first is the second and sometimes third allstars on the teams, and the second is that when you double those wing players they pass to teammates that actually knock down their open 3's.

KAT isn't the problem, the supporting cast and a lack of identity on this team is. Our elite big man is scoring 26 pts a game with incredible efficiency while pulling down double digit rebounds. Put a defensive big next to him, and get guys that score above a 50 TS%.

I agree. Im actually surprised there are so many willing to even consider a Towns trade. Just because we may never win a championship with Towns doesn't mean we shouldn't put a proper team around him. I'd love to be a lock for the 4 spot right now even if we were stuck there for a few years.

KG4Ever wrote:Trading Kat would be insane. He hasn't even peaked yet and he loves being here. Its great seeing Wiggs come around with the new coaching staff. Now we have to draft and develop players wisely to fit around our two stars and we need to replicate what the most successful organizations have done and find and develop talent. Its a process and will take time. Enjoy the process.

Its really hard to enjoy the process with the history of this franchise but that's where I am at and have been going into this season. And lets be honest if you are of the opinion that Towns isn't a guy that you can build around a contender and you aren't a championship or bust type person then enjoying the process and the career of Towns while he is here should be even easier. The expectations are low and like someone else said we are likely going to get a haul for Towns anyway if that time comes.

How much worse would we be if we traded KAT for Jarrett Allen, Spencer Dinwiddie, and Taurean Prince? i'd bet we would be the same or better. Allen instantly improves our defense. Dinwiddie gives us a ball handling playmaker and scorer. Prince gives us a 3 & D wing.

KAT is awesome. But he's limited in the impact he can make since he is weak on defense and has to rely on others to get shots. As Abe states, the game just isn't built these days for an offensively gifted Center that doesn't defend well.

Now do I think the Wolves actually consider trading KAT in the near future? Hell No. But I'm skeptical they can build around him given the existing trends and the way its officiated (again, see Abe's white paper on this topic). I certainly hope I'm wrong.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Well, considering I think I helped Q reach this conclusion... let me reiterate my take.

Towns is awesome. He's the unicorn everybody has been talking about for years. He's able to do things nobody else can do. He's most definitely a top talent in the entire league. There's never been a guy that big do what he can do... in NBA history. WOW!

And it's probably not enough.

For me, it's less about Towns... and more about the NBA. This league is catered to wings. I don't know how much more evidence we need on this. I talk about it all the time. It's blatantly obvious to me.

A 20-year-old wing gets 20 shots and 9+ free throws per game... KAT has led his team in shots ONE time in 5 seasons... and that was barely. He averages 17.5 shots per game and a career high free throws, just over 6 per game.

Doncic gets the ball EVERY possession (if Dallas wants him to). Same with Harden. Leonard. Giannis. George. LeBron. Et al. They get more foul calls. They get pummeled on the block from smaller players a heckuva lot less. They get schemed against with zones a lot less effectively. They don't get doubled hard with their back to the basket, forcing a pass as often. Etc.

The only truly top guy not a wing is Anthony Davis. And we saw what happened to him without another top 5 wing player next to him. The NBA is catered to wings. It's obvious. And it's a shame for an NBA franchise building around a truly elite and incredible offensive big.

Maybe there's a way to change the NBA. Be a leader. Scheme something to unlock Towns. Bring back the BIG. But does anybody believe this coaching staff is that crew? More importantly, does anybody believe an organization led by Glen Taylor (who failed miserably to surround two other All NBA bigs with quality talent to almost unprecedented levels) is up for the task the 3rd time around -- in a league where Minnesota is one of the LEAST desirable places to play for NBA players?

I'm not saying to trade Towns necessarily.
What I'm saying is that it's A LOT harder to build a truly great team around an elite big than an elite wing. And it's not particular close in 2020.

If we're cool with that... fine. But there seems to be a lower ceiling.

No team can win with one great player. Anthony Davis needs LeBron. LeBron needs Wade and Bosh. LeBron needs Love and Irving. Durant Needs Steph and Klay and Draymond. MJ needed Pippen and got help from Rodman and Grant. Kobe needed Shaq. Kobe Needed Gasol.

History proves you need multiple great players, not one. KAT isn't the problem, he's part of the solution however if you can get the other pieces, like a LeBron, a Doncic, a Kawhi.