Trade Talks Update

[Lipoli390]

"3) The national media is quite the beast. All these leaks that just happen to all be essentially shitting on the Wolves (no leverage, all the Thibs-Butler gossip, weak offers, etc). Far more times than not they seem to always try to report drama with the Wolves. I think quite of bit of the story surrounding Butler is overblown, with the exception of him wanting to be traded because that's pretty cut and dry. I think enough teams badly want him and are just trying to play it down/play the game."

Good thoughts Grey. However, responsibility for this drama surrounding the Wolves right now rests with the Wolves organization, primarily Thibodeau and Butler, not the national media. Most of the reports are coming from Woj and Jon K, two highly reliable and straight-shooting reporters. I don't think anything's been overblown. I think there are some teams that want Butler, some more than others. Reports that the Heat want him the most ring true. We're heard that the Bucks and Clippers are interested. I'm sure there are others as well. How "badly" any of these teams or others want Butler is impossible for us to know. I suspect some of the teams interested are lowballing and have yet to put their best offer on the table. But the time will soon come when the offers won't get any better. We have to hope that Thibodeau recognizes when that occurs and has the good judgment at that point to take the right deal.

I'll add that as soon as the deal is done, Thibodeau should be fired.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

How on earth would that work, though, Lip? Thibs would make a trade, and then be fired before coaching the very pieces he just acquired? I don't see it. It also wouldn't make much sense in terms of bringing in a new coach. "Hey, here's this hodgepodge group of guys that you had nothing to do with. Our old coach assembled them and now it's your job to make it work."

If they were going to fire Thibs, it would be BEFORE a trade is made. That way the new management could employ their strategies and vision instead of molding a group that they had nothing to do with.

For example, let's say the Wolves acquired Richardson in a trade package because Thibs loved him. Then we find out a player like Gary Harris was available but Thibs didn't like him as much as J-Rich. But our new coach's system and preference would have been a better fit for Harris than Richardson. See what I'm saying? Now it's just even more messed up.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Cam, While I agree with you that Taylor will probably let Thibs hang himself this season (nothing about the pre-season so far inspires confidence that this team can win even 40 games...still early, I know), he could always fire Thibs sooner and then simply have interim folks in charge (Saunders as head coach and Layden as POBO for example) until the spring. Then he can go find the right folks and give them a full offseason to revamp the roster.

[Monster]

If there was an obvious head coach and GM (separate people) to take over this job the people on this forum that want Thibs gone would be posting about them every 5 mins. So you have a bunch of pretty smart folks that even though they have zero faith in Thibs all they have is "Get him the F out". I don't blame them for that stance, but... the reality is there isn't any obvious options so we may as well let thing play out a while longer. If you don't believe in Thibs or the roster it's a lost season anyway. I don't see the value in having a lame duck assistant guide this team at least starting out the season. Let Thibs go out and fail if he does we will know soon enough and then we can go from there. Last season when the Bucks moved on from Kidd I wasn't sure if they would end up with a good coach. They ended up with Bud who I have some concerns about but he is a heck of a lot better than the guys available in season.

[Monster]

Of the Miami guys with expensive contracts we might have to take back I think the guy that intruiges me the most is Tyler Johnson. Yep he makes 19 million the next 2 years but turned 26 in May and has a rep of a guy that plays hard. He was a key contributor for a team that won 44 games last year. If he could push Rose down the depth chart...lol I would rather have Johnson for 2 years 19 per than Dieng and his 3 years 48 million so that's how I'm looking at it and to me that could be a positive move on the court and save salary the 3rd year. It's possible he could be part of something long term as a rotation guy and there is a bit of possible upside yet. Adding Johnson would also make Teague more moveable because we would have someone decent to play minutes at that spot.

[bleedspeed]

If they were going to fire Thibs, it would be BEFORE a trade is made. That way the new management could employ their strategies and vision instead of molding a group that they had nothing to do with.

100% AGREE

[Lipoli390]

How on earth would that work, though, Lip? Thibs would make a trade, and then be fired before coaching the very pieces he just acquired? I don't see it. It also wouldn't make much sense in terms of bringing in a new coach. "Hey, here's this hodgepodge group of guys that you had nothing to do with. Our old coach assembled them and now it's your job to make it work."

If they were going to fire Thibs, it would be BEFORE a trade is made. That way the new management could employ their strategies and vision instead of molding a group that they had nothing to do with.

For example, let's say the Wolves acquired Richardson in a trade package because Thibs loved him. Then we find out a player like Gary Harris was available but Thibs didn't like him as much as J-Rich. But our new coach's system and preference would have been a better fit for Harris than Richardson. See what I'm saying? Now it's just even more messed up.

Cam - I agree completely that the optimal time to fire Thibodeau would be before a trade is made. However, unless you think Thibodeau will be here long term as both PBO and head coach, any new PBO and head coach will inherit players he didn't bring here. The question is whether Thibodeau is a positive or negative force in the organization in either or both his roles. I'd say unequivocally the answer is no. So the sooner he leaves the better. At this point, he could be replaced on an interim basis -- maybe Ryan Saunders, Andy Greer or Kevin McHale as interim head coach together with Layden as interim PBO. Thibodeau is such a negative presence in my view. The negative atmosphere has been palpable from the depressing media-day press conference with the dower Thibodeau and his lapdog Layden casting their heavy shadows over the room, through the continuing front office drama that dates back to their report of Thibodeau's heated argument with his lapdog last season, on through Thibodeau's pathetic attempts to get Butler to stay, and culminating most recently in the painful joyless performance of our starters in the last two exhibition games. Moreover, Thibodeau is a terrible head coach (at least for this team) and every moment with him in that role is a wasted opportunity to improve the team's performance and develop our younger players.

So yes, by all means, fire him now before a deal is made. But if he's not fired before a deal is make, get him out of here as soon as you can, replace him with the best interim alternative you can find, clear the air around here.

[TheGrey08]

"3) The national media is quite the beast. All these leaks that just happen to all be essentially shitting on the Wolves (no leverage, all the Thibs-Butler gossip, weak offers, etc). Far more times than not they seem to always try to report drama with the Wolves. I think quite of bit of the story surrounding Butler is overblown, with the exception of him wanting to be traded because that's pretty cut and dry. I think enough teams badly want him and are just trying to play it down/play the game."

Good thoughts Grey. However, responsibility for this drama surrounding the Wolves right now rests with the Wolves organization, primarily Thibodeau and Butler, not the national media. Most of the reports are coming from Woj and Jon K, two highly reliable and straight-shooting reporters. I don't think anything's been overblown. I think there are some teams that want Butler, some more than others. Reports that the Heat want him the most ring true. We're heard that the Bucks and Clippers are interested. I'm sure there are others as well. How "badly" any of these teams or others want Butler is impossible for us to know. I suspect some of the teams interested are lowballing and have yet to put their best offer on the table. But the time will soon come when the offers won't get any better. We have to hope that Thibodeau recognizes when that occurs and has the good judgment at that point to take the right deal.

I'll add that as soon as the deal is done, Thibodeau should be fired.

Yeah for sure, the organization and Butler camp have all handled this situation badly. Jon K is definitely respectable. I was mainly focusing on the national media and how they always seem to bring up drama especially when it's far fetched like the Rubio nonsense after he was drafted.

What I think has been overblown/exaggerated is more so the leaked stuff from outside sources that come off like the Wolves are helpless, have no leverage, the rumored lowball offers are the best they will get and they should just take one. Butler is one of many to either say they won't resign or ask for a trade, Kawhi, Kyrie, K Love, etc and yet most of the time teams got at least a decent offer. Everyone knows you almost always lose on any deal when trading away a star, but so much of this seems like pretty clear spin and game playing via the media. Jon K and Woj are of course reporting what their sources are telling them so I don't blame them.

[thedoper]

I think the key remains to not come out of this with long term commitments. I'd rather have one of Bam or Richardson than to have to take on a long term contract like Johnson or Whiteside. I think if Thibs can acquire a talented young player and ditch Gorgui we are looking great long term.

[Lipoli390]

I think the key remains to not come out of this with long term commitments. I'd rather have one of Bam or Richardson than to have to take on a long term contract like Johnson or Whiteside. I think if Thibs can acquire a talented young player and ditch Gorgui we are looking great long term.

I think I agree with you, Doper. I'll tweak you comment a bit and rephrase it as avoiding coming out of this with any BAD long-term commitments. Richardson would be what I'd call a GOOD long-term commitment. Whiteside would be a bad one. Bam would be a cheap short-term contractual commitment with a possible huge longer-term payoff at a much higher salary. I would still insist on getting both in any Butler deal and I'd wouldn't jeapordize the chance of getting both by insisting on jettisoning Gorgui's contract. Gorgui's not worth his contract, but he's not a negative presence and in a couple years he'll be very tradeable in the last year of his deal. In any event, getting rid of Gorgui's contract will likely involving bringing back a pretty bad contract in return to make salaries match. Including Gorgui in a Miami deal would invariably involve bringing back a comparably bad contract (e.g., Whiteside or James Johnson).

If we could get Tyler Johnson or Olynyk by including Gorgui and still get Richardson and Bam, I'd be all in. But I don't see that happening. Get Richardson and Bam -- maybe include Miami's 2019 first round pick with lottery protection -- and at this point that's a good deal for the Wolves. I actually believe that's realistic because I think Riley wants Butler than badly. But I don't see him taking Gorgui in exchange of Olynyk or even Tyler Johnson.