Around the League - '24-25 Season

[Q-is-here]

You guys scoff at my conspiracy concerns but can't answer the fundamental question. Why always the Lakers?

I'm suspicious, but I'm also pretty sure this wasn't "directed" by Adam Silver or any of his minions in the League office.

In this case, "why the Lakers" has to do with the fact that Nico Harrison and Rob Pelinka actually have a connection that dates back 20 years and were meeting for coffee when this came up casually. How often do front office execs just pal around together casually? I'm pretty sure Adam Silver didn't set up this meeting.

I think this is a modern version of the "good old boys" club where two long-time NBA insiders that were very well connected did a deal in a vacuum, with one walking away giddy as a schoolgirl and the other walking away being too clever by half.

It was well known that Ainge and McHales relationship helped grease the wheels to get KG to Boston. Relationships make a difference sometimes. The most curious part to me is what the ultimate reason is for Dallas to be done with Luka.

That's all well and good, but Nico Harrison works for the Mavericks, not Rob Pelinka. Why didn't he shop that deal around and try to extract more either from someone else or the Lakers themselves!?

As for why Dallas is done with Luka, I think that's been reported on pretty well.

[Lipoli390]

You guys scoff at my conspiracy concerns but can't answer the fundamental question. Why always the Lakers?

I'm suspicious, but I'm also pretty sure this wasn't "directed" by Adam Silver or any of his minions in the League office.

In this case, "why the Lakers" has to do with the fact that Nico Harrison and Rob Pelinka actually have a connection that dates back 20 years and were meeting for coffee when this came up casually. How often do front office execs just pal around together casually? I'm pretty sure Adam Silver didn't set up this meeting.

I think this is a modern version of the "good old boys" club where two long-time NBA insiders that were very well connected did a deal in a vacuum, with one walking away giddy as a schoolgirl and the other walking away being too clever by half.

It was well known that Ainge and McHales relationship helped grease the wheels to get KG to Boston. Relationships make a difference sometimes. The most curious part to me is what the ultimate reason is for Dallas to be done with Luka.

Great points. I think Phenom captured it perfectly as a “good old boys club” deal between two long-term buddies with “one walking away giddy [Rob] and the other walking away being too clever by half [Nico].” Rob’s one of the smarter GMs and Nico is probably one of the dumbest. But as someone pointed out, the NBA had to create a rule based on the stupidity of a GM who kept trading away successful first round picks to the detriment of his team. Notably, that GM’s succession of stupidity did not benefit the Lakers. Sometimes something happens that is so utterly stupid and ridiculous that it has us looking for something nefarious to explain it.

Again, I’ll add that there’s logic behind the decision to trade Luka before you have to give him a supermax deal to keep him if you’re convinced he’s never going to take conditioning seriously. Nico’s main stupidity lies in his failure to shop Luka more widely and drive up the price. That’s the sort of thing that gets us scratching our heads and thinking about possible conspiracies.

[Phenom]

I'm suspicious, but I'm also pretty sure this wasn't "directed" by Adam Silver or any of his minions in the League office.

In this case, "why the Lakers" has to do with the fact that Nico Harrison and Rob Pelinka actually have a connection that dates back 20 years and were meeting for coffee when this came up casually. How often do front office execs just pal around together casually? I'm pretty sure Adam Silver didn't set up this meeting.

I think this is a modern version of the "good old boys" club where two long-time NBA insiders that were very well connected did a deal in a vacuum, with one walking away giddy as a schoolgirl and the other walking away being too clever by half.

It was well known that Ainge and McHales relationship helped grease the wheels to get KG to Boston. Relationships make a difference sometimes. The most curious part to me is what the ultimate reason is for Dallas to be done with Luka.

That's all well and good, but Nico Harrison works for the Mavericks, not Rob Pelinka. Why didn't he shop that deal around and try to extract more either from someone else or the Lakers themselves!?

As for why Dallas is done with Luka, I think that's been reported on pretty well.

I disagree that we know the real reason yet. I think that's a bigger conspiracy than collusion with the league. They don't want to pay him the supermax, but why? I feel we don't know that yet.

[Lipoli390]

It was well known that Ainge and McHales relationship helped grease the wheels to get KG to Boston. Relationships make a difference sometimes. The most curious part to me is what the ultimate reason is for Dallas to be done with Luka.

That's all well and good, but Nico Harrison works for the Mavericks, not Rob Pelinka. Why didn't he shop that deal around and try to extract more either from someone else or the Lakers themselves!?

As for why Dallas is done with Luka, I think that's been reported on pretty well.

I disagree that we know the real reason yet. I think that's a bigger conspiracy than collusion with the league. They don't want to pay him the supermax, but why? I feel we don't know that yet.

I think the Mavs front office was concerned about whether Luka was worth the supermax given his apparent aversion to conditioning and perhaps some other personality things that Windy was alluding to in the podcast I posted. Maybe there’s more. But I agree with Q that the real story here is why Nico failed to shop Luka and instead entered into secret exclusive negotiations with the Lakers. That’s the thing that makes me scratch my head and it’s probably the main reason why Cool isn’t out of bounds thinking conspiracy.

[Q-is-here]

I'm not going to say Sacramento is better off without Fox this season, but that Keon Ellis is one hell of a 3&D guard that allows Monk and DeRozan to go do what they do best which is score the damn ball, whereas Fox needed to get his shots. I think Murray may grow from the trade as well. And then they are adding the white-hot shooting LaVine into the mix. Not sure there will be much of a fall off from them.

[AbeVigodaLive]

You guys scoff at my conspiracy concerns but can't answer the fundamental question. Why always the Lakers?

I don’t think I’m scoffing. You might actually be right. I’m definitely open to the existence of conspiracies, including the possibility in this instance. For example, I don’t think JFK was the victim of a lone crazed gunman named Lee Harvey Oswald.

But my answer to your fundamental and very fair question is that we don’t actually have a long history of conspicuously one-sided trades favoring the Lakers. We had the Kareem deal 50 years ago and now this one. Two such trades in 50 years is not enough for me to believe the Doncic deal was orchestrated by the League in a Laker-centric conspiracy.

The success the Lakers have had getting other great payers in the 50 years between these two one-sided deals has been the natural advantage that franchise has signing free agents - the climate, money, glitz and allure of Southern California combined with the Lakers’ iconic brand. More specifically, Shaq wanted to get into the music business and Southern California was the epicenter of the American music scene at the time (and still is). Shaq has always loved attention and there’s no better place for attention that playing in America’s largest media market for the NBA’s more iconic brand. LeBron was also attracted to the money and glitz of Southern California just as he was previously drawn to the warm climate and glitz of South Beach. His wife liked it there and his son had his sights set on going to college there.

I don’t believe the Pau Gasol trade was conspicuously one-sided. And drafting Kobe was just a smart move by a very savvy GM named Jerry West. It’s not surprising that a lot of teams passed on drafting Kobe given the skepticism at the time surrounding players coming right out of high school. The KG effect hadn’t had its full impact yet. There were also a lot of dumb GMs back then, as there are now, and Jerry West was brilliant by comparison. It’s also true that Kobe wanted to go to the Lakers, which isn’t surprising since that’s where Kobe lived, not to mention the allure of playing for an iconic franchise like the Lakers.

Again, I simply see this deal as the product of a really dumb GM named Nico Harrison or, perhaps, some underhanded arrangement between two friends (Nico and Rob), but even that wouldn’t be a League conspiracy. Maybe we’ll find out otherwise at some point. I’m still convinced the League covered up more widespread gambling among officials when the Donaghy scandal came to light. So again, I’m still open to the possibility of something more nefarious in this instance. For now, I don’t think so.

Lip... I pointed out just how ridiculous the Gasol(s) trade was.

Only one other player besides Gasol started more than 9 games for the Grizzlies. One of the players (A. McKie) was a COACH and had to unretire just to make the trade happen.

In hindsight, the trade wasn't so bad because Gasol became one of the very few #48 picks to pan out.

But if you're arguing Pau Gasol = 48th pick in the draft + 2 end-of-round 1st rd picks = good trade... I can't agree with that.

[Coolbreeze44]

Kobe doesn't win that championship without Pau. Great trade for the Lakers.

[Lipoli390]

You guys scoff at my conspiracy concerns but can't answer the fundamental question. Why always the Lakers?

I don’t think I’m scoffing. You might actually be right. I’m definitely open to the existence of conspiracies, including the possibility in this instance. For example, I don’t think JFK was the victim of a lone crazed gunman named Lee Harvey Oswald.

But my answer to your fundamental and very fair question is that we don’t actually have a long history of conspicuously one-sided trades favoring the Lakers. We had the Kareem deal 50 years ago and now this one. Two such trades in 50 years is not enough for me to believe the Doncic deal was orchestrated by the League in a Laker-centric conspiracy.

The success the Lakers have had getting other great payers in the 50 years between these two one-sided deals has been the natural advantage that franchise has signing free agents - the climate, money, glitz and allure of Southern California combined with the Lakers’ iconic brand. More specifically, Shaq wanted to get into the music business and Southern California was the epicenter of the American music scene at the time (and still is). Shaq has always loved attention and there’s no better place for attention that playing in America’s largest media market for the NBA’s more iconic brand. LeBron was also attracted to the money and glitz of Southern California just as he was previously drawn to the warm climate and glitz of South Beach. His wife liked it there and his son had his sights set on going to college there.

I don’t believe the Pau Gasol trade was conspicuously one-sided. And drafting Kobe was just a smart move by a very savvy GM named Jerry West. It’s not surprising that a lot of teams passed on drafting Kobe given the skepticism at the time surrounding players coming right out of high school. The KG effect hadn’t had its full impact yet. There were also a lot of dumb GMs back then, as there are now, and Jerry West was brilliant by comparison. It’s also true that Kobe wanted to go to the Lakers, which isn’t surprising since that’s where Kobe lived, not to mention the allure of playing for an iconic franchise like the Lakers.

Again, I simply see this deal as the product of a really dumb GM named Nico Harrison or, perhaps, some underhanded arrangement between two friends (Nico and Rob), but even that wouldn’t be a League conspiracy. Maybe we’ll find out otherwise at some point. I’m still convinced the League covered up more widespread gambling among officials when the Donaghy scandal came to light. So again, I’m still open to the possibility of something more nefarious in this instance. For now, I don’t think so.

Lip... I pointed out just how ridiculous the Gasol(s) trade was.

Only one other player besides Gasol started more than 9 games for the Grizzlies. One of the players (A. McKie) was a COACH and had to unretire just to make the trade happen.

In hindsight, the trade wasn't so bad because Gasol became one of the very few #48 picks to pan out.

But if you're arguing Pau Gasol = 48th pick in the draft + 2 end-of-round 1st rd picks = good trade... I can't agree with that.

Yes, it was a terrific trade for the Lakers. I’ve never suggested otherwise. But it wasn’t nearly as lopsided as the Doncic deal in which Dallas gave up a 25 year old top five player based apparently on conditioning concerns for a 30 year old with a long track record of missing games with injuries and only getting one future 1st round pick four years from now. The Grizzlies received two future first round picks and multiple young players with upside, including Crittenton who had just been drafted #19 overall the previous year, and Kwame Brown who was a former first overall pick and still only 25 years old at the time of the trade.

As for Marc Gasol, hindsight tells us he was a terrific acquisition for Memphis in that deal. Obviously, Jerry West and his staff saw something in him when they insisted on getting him as part of the deal. Marc Gasol was regarded as very talented at the time. He played for the gold medal winning Spanish team in the 2006 FIBA Championship. The rap on him was that he was fat and out of condition. That’s a fixable thing. We know with hindsight that the Grizzlies calculation regarding Marc was correct.

Again, I agree the Lakers won that trade. But it was a classic case of a team trading a disgruntled vet for picks and young upside players and it wasn’t suspiciously one-sided like the Doncic deal in my view. Moreover, the Grizzlies did not talk exclusively to the Lakers about trading Pau. Jerry West admitted to talking with at least one other team, the Bulls. That’s critical because the really suspicious aspect of the Doncic deal was Nico’s failure to shop Doncic with any other team. I’m sure we can find a lot of NBA deals throughout the League’s history not involving the Lakers that were at least as lopsided as the Pau Gasol deal.

So I still see only two weirdly suspicious deals, 50 years apart, in LA Lakers history. And if there was anything nefarious in either deal, or in the Pau Gasol deal for that matter, there’s no support for the conclusion that the League Office was behind any of those deals. Moreover, the League doesn’t have the power or any tools that could force a team to make a bad deal favoring another team. If we look objectively at the many lopsided deals throughout NBA history (most not involving the Lakers), even including the Jabbar and Doncic deals with the Lakers, I think we’ll see front office stupidity and/or GM’s blinded by close relationships with their front office counterparts.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I don’t think I’m scoffing. You might actually be right. I’m definitely open to the existence of conspiracies, including the possibility in this instance. For example, I don’t think JFK was the victim of a lone crazed gunman named Lee Harvey Oswald.

But my answer to your fundamental and very fair question is that we don’t actually have a long history of conspicuously one-sided trades favoring the Lakers. We had the Kareem deal 50 years ago and now this one. Two such trades in 50 years is not enough for me to believe the Doncic deal was orchestrated by the League in a Laker-centric conspiracy.

The success the Lakers have had getting other great payers in the 50 years between these two one-sided deals has been the natural advantage that franchise has signing free agents - the climate, money, glitz and allure of Southern California combined with the Lakers’ iconic brand. More specifically, Shaq wanted to get into the music business and Southern California was the epicenter of the American music scene at the time (and still is). Shaq has always loved attention and there’s no better place for attention that playing in America’s largest media market for the NBA’s more iconic brand. LeBron was also attracted to the money and glitz of Southern California just as he was previously drawn to the warm climate and glitz of South Beach. His wife liked it there and his son had his sights set on going to college there.

I don’t believe the Pau Gasol trade was conspicuously one-sided. And drafting Kobe was just a smart move by a very savvy GM named Jerry West. It’s not surprising that a lot of teams passed on drafting Kobe given the skepticism at the time surrounding players coming right out of high school. The KG effect hadn’t had its full impact yet. There were also a lot of dumb GMs back then, as there are now, and Jerry West was brilliant by comparison. It’s also true that Kobe wanted to go to the Lakers, which isn’t surprising since that’s where Kobe lived, not to mention the allure of playing for an iconic franchise like the Lakers.

Again, I simply see this deal as the product of a really dumb GM named Nico Harrison or, perhaps, some underhanded arrangement between two friends (Nico and Rob), but even that wouldn’t be a League conspiracy. Maybe we’ll find out otherwise at some point. I’m still convinced the League covered up more widespread gambling among officials when the Donaghy scandal came to light. So again, I’m still open to the possibility of something more nefarious in this instance. For now, I don’t think so.

Lip... I pointed out just how ridiculous the Gasol(s) trade was.

Only one other player besides Gasol started more than 9 games for the Grizzlies. One of the players (A. McKie) was a COACH and had to unretire just to make the trade happen.

In hindsight, the trade wasn't so bad because Gasol became one of the very few #48 picks to pan out.

But if you're arguing Pau Gasol = 48th pick in the draft + 2 end-of-round 1st rd picks = good trade... I can't agree with that.

Yes, it was a terrific trade for the Lakers. I’ve never suggested otherwise. But it wasn’t nearly as lopsided as the Doncic deal in which Dallas gave up a 25 year old top five player based apparently on conditioning concerns for a 30 year old with a long track record of missing games with injuries and only getting one future 1st round pick four years from now. The Grizzlies received two future first round picks and multiple young players with upside, including Crittenton who had just been drafted #19 overall the previous year, and Kwame Brown who was a former first overall pick and still only 25 years old at the time of the trade.

As for Marc Gasol, hindsight tells us he was a terrific acquisition for Memphis in that deal. Obviously, Jerry West and his staff saw something in him when they insisted on getting him as part of the deal. Marc Gasol was regarded as very talented at the time. He played for the gold medal winning Spanish team in the 2006 FIBA Championship. The rap on him was that he was fat and out of condition. That’s a fixable thing. We know with hindsight that the Grizzlies calculation regarding Marc was correct.

Again, I agree the Lakers won that trade. But it was a classic case of a team trading a disgruntled vet for picks and young upside players and it wasn’t suspiciously one-sided like the Doncic deal in my view. Moreover, the Grizzlies did not talk exclusively to the Lakers about trading Pau. Jerry West admitted to talking with at least one other team, the Bulls. That’s critical because the really suspicious aspect of the Doncic deal was Nico’s failure to shop Doncic with any other team. I’m sure we can find a lot of NBA deals throughout the League’s history not involving the Lakers that were at least as lopsided as the Pau Gasol deal.

So I still see only two weirdly suspicious deals, 50 years apart, in LA Lakers history. And if there was anything nefarious in either deal, or in the Pau Gasol deal for that matter, there’s no support for the conclusion that the League Office was behind any of those deals. Moreover, the League doesn’t have the power or any tools that could force a team to make a bad deal favoring another team. If we look objectively at the many lopsided deals throughout NBA history (most not involving the Lakers), even including the Jabbar and Doncic deals with the Lakers, I think we’ll see front office stupidity and/or GM’s blinded by close relationships with their front office counterparts.

Lip... maybe you missed my post going through the players of the Gasol trade earlier in this thread.

I'm not suggesting that it was as bad as the Doncic trade. But it was clear at the time the Lakers fleeced the Grizzlies.

You can't in good conscience claim that Kwame Brown was a player with upside. LOL. He was in his 7th season and was averaging less than 6 ppg for the Lakers. He averaged 3.5 ppg and started all of ONE game with Memphis. Why? Because they took him for the salary match since he was an impending free agent. They let Detroit get him in FA for HALF of what he was making the previous season.

Just because a guy gets drafted in the 1st rd doesn't make him a high upside player. Crittendon was averaging 13 mpg for the Lakers. He never even started for Memphis, averaging 18 mpg for a 60-loss team... before Memphis traded him after only 35 games.

So Memphis dumped its two prized young players with upside from the Gasol trade after a COMBINED 50 games with the team.

And remember, LA was battling for championships so the draft picks were both at the end of the 1st round and didn't amount to much. Oh, and let's not forget that Aaron McKie did not come out of retirement to actually play any basketball.

The only reason that trade isn't recalled more is because Marc Gasol surprisingly became one of the best mid/late 2nd round picks in modern NBA history.



[Note: I'm not suggesting conspiracy or anything here... only that the trade was ridiculously bad at the time. The Doncic trade has many more issues as you mention.]

[Lipoli390]

Lip... I pointed out just how ridiculous the Gasol(s) trade was.

Only one other player besides Gasol started more than 9 games for the Grizzlies. One of the players (A. McKie) was a COACH and had to unretire just to make the trade happen.

In hindsight, the trade wasn't so bad because Gasol became one of the very few #48 picks to pan out.

But if you're arguing Pau Gasol = 48th pick in the draft + 2 end-of-round 1st rd picks = good trade... I can't agree with that.

Yes, it was a terrific trade for the Lakers. I’ve never suggested otherwise. But it wasn’t nearly as lopsided as the Doncic deal in which Dallas gave up a 25 year old top five player based apparently on conditioning concerns for a 30 year old with a long track record of missing games with injuries and only getting one future 1st round pick four years from now. The Grizzlies received two future first round picks and multiple young players with upside, including Crittenton who had just been drafted #19 overall the previous year, and Kwame Brown who was a former first overall pick and still only 25 years old at the time of the trade.

As for Marc Gasol, hindsight tells us he was a terrific acquisition for Memphis in that deal. Obviously, Jerry West and his staff saw something in him when they insisted on getting him as part of the deal. Marc Gasol was regarded as very talented at the time. He played for the gold medal winning Spanish team in the 2006 FIBA Championship. The rap on him was that he was fat and out of condition. That’s a fixable thing. We know with hindsight that the Grizzlies calculation regarding Marc was correct.

Again, I agree the Lakers won that trade. But it was a classic case of a team trading a disgruntled vet for picks and young upside players and it wasn’t suspiciously one-sided like the Doncic deal in my view. Moreover, the Grizzlies did not talk exclusively to the Lakers about trading Pau. Jerry West admitted to talking with at least one other team, the Bulls. That’s critical because the really suspicious aspect of the Doncic deal was Nico’s failure to shop Doncic with any other team. I’m sure we can find a lot of NBA deals throughout the League’s history not involving the Lakers that were at least as lopsided as the Pau Gasol deal.

So I still see only two weirdly suspicious deals, 50 years apart, in LA Lakers history. And if there was anything nefarious in either deal, or in the Pau Gasol deal for that matter, there’s no support for the conclusion that the League Office was behind any of those deals. Moreover, the League doesn’t have the power or any tools that could force a team to make a bad deal favoring another team. If we look objectively at the many lopsided deals throughout NBA history (most not involving the Lakers), even including the Jabbar and Doncic deals with the Lakers, I think we’ll see front office stupidity and/or GM’s blinded by close relationships with their front office counterparts.

Lip... maybe you missed my post going through the players of the Gasol trade earlier in this thread.

I'm not suggesting that it was as bad as the Doncic trade. But it was clear at the time the Lakers fleeced the Grizzlies.

You can't in good conscience claim that Kwame Brown was a player with upside. LOL. He was in his 7th season and was averaging less than 6 ppg for the Lakers. He averaged 3.5 ppg and started all of ONE game with Memphis. Why? Because they took him for the salary match since he was an impending free agent. They let Detroit get him in FA for HALF of what he was making the previous season.

Just because a guy gets drafted in the 1st rd doesn't make him a high upside player. Crittendon was averaging 13 mpg for the Lakers. He never even started for Memphis, averaging 18 mpg for a 60-loss team... before Memphis traded him after only 35 games.

So Memphis dumped its two prized young players with upside from the Gasol trade after a COMBINED 50 games with the team.

And remember, LA was battling for championships so the draft picks were both at the end of the 1st round and didn't amount to much. Oh, and let's not forget that Aaron McKie did not come out of retirement to actually play any basketball.

The only reason that trade isn't recalled more is because Marc Gasol surprisingly became one of the best mid/late 2nd round picks in modern NBA history.



[Note: I'm not suggesting conspiracy or anything here... only that the trade was ridiculously bad at the time. The Doncic trade has many more issues as you mention.]

OK. I’m tracking you now. Yes, at the time without hindsight it was a terrible trade for the Grizzlies, although Crittendon was viewed as a high upside player after just being drafting at #19. As you noted, it ended up a decent trade for the Grizzlies because of how Marc Gasol turned out. But it would be interesting to know why the Grizzlies didn’t get more. Jerry West doesn’t fall into to the bucket of multiple idiot GMs. To the contrary he was one of the best. He’s on record saying he talked to at least one other team, which likely means he talked to multiple teams about Pau. Was there something about Pau that turned off a lot of GMs? Was Pau’s agent telling other teams not to trade for his client and insisting that the Lakers were the only team Pau would stay with if traded there?

Because we know that Jerry West was no fool, I suspect it was Pau’s agent scaring away all but a few teams if not all teams but the Lakers. That’s what Kobe’s agent did during the draft although Kobe admitted it was a tactic and that he would have played for any team that drafted him. But I also wouldn’t discount the possibility that Jerry West was convinced Marc Gasol would end up as good as he ultimately became. So while we have to admit based on hindsight that the Grizzlies weren’t actually fleeced, perhaps Jerry’s foresight told him this wasn’t such a bad deal for his team under the circumstances.