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Re: Rebuilding time...who goes?
Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:23 am
by mjs34
I'd like to write in Flip!
This guy is so much like Adelman, that it is frustrating.
"We've had pretty good crowds these last two games, considering where we're at," Saunders said. "And on a Saturday night, when the crowd was pretty energized, to come out how we did in the beginning, that's uncalled for. We talked to the team afterward about just what it is to be professional. It's everybody's responsibility."
"He'd be first team all-league if he played against us every time," Saunders said of Burke. "Maybe I should have drafted him based on how he's played against us and in this arena."
I don't suppose it could have anything to do with the coaching, or defensive scheme....
Re: Rebuilding time...who goes?
Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:26 am
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
I don't mean to shy away from answering this question, but my answer is the same as always...I trade anybody who brings back somebody who clearly makes us better. Not immediately, because that doesn't matter in a lost season, but down the line when we are ready to compete. The Brewer for Daniels trade is an example. Corey was one of our best players this year and the trade clearly made us worse in the short term, but long-term I think the potential of Daniels' 3-point shooting is a more valuable asset. I suspect that Flip is looking at all options, but that there just isn't much value being offered in return. I think he is better off waiting until the trade deadline when contending teams' needs are more defined. It would be terrific if a contender had a huge need for a center or a PF at the deadline, and was willing to give us something for either Pek or Thad...but I think it's unlikely. It's more likely that a contender will give us something of value for a sharpshooter like Martin. Don't get me wrong...I want Martin on our team and think his contract is cheap for the scoring and shooting he provides. I also think he could be a valuable scorer off the bench next year, when I expect us to be much more competitive. But if a contender gives us something that makes us better, Flip needs to pull the trigger.
Re: Rebuilding time...who goes?
Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:39 am
by BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520]
I'm tired of collecting draft picks and gambling on prospects. I say we keep everybody we have (expect for Pek-trade him for.50 on the dollar or just cut him this offseason). We're not getting anything for Bud, and Martin can be either a starting SG or backup for us. I think our coaching is definitely the problem and not our talent. What does Sam Mitchell do exactly with our defense? Isn't that why Flip hired him?
Re: Rebuilding time...who goes?
Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:57 am
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
Camden wrote:You know, teams actually can and have developed players while having good veteran players next to and ahead of them on the depth chart. Chicago, San Antonio, Oklahoma City, Indiana, Portland, Golden State, etc. All of the good/great teams do this. This rush to trade Martin for the sake of developing players might actually be counterproductive. Who are the players that he's affecting negatively? Why aren't there enough minutes for Wiggins and Muhammad to get consistently while seeing what LaVine and Daniels can do at times? The answer is that there are plenty of minutes and Martin is not a negative on this team. Getting rid of him would be a tanking move; one that we don't need to make.
Not to mention, all of us want Rubio to develop into the All-Star point guard this team needs. Are we [Wolves; Flip] really going to hurt his supporting cast by getting rid of our best shooter/scorer? Do you want him (Rubio) to have anybody to drive and dish to that can actually make shots consistently? Some of you really are too quick to want to trade guys without fully thinking about the ramifications. Martin's one of the best catch-and-shoot players in all of basketball, and we're supposed to trade him because he's blocking Zach LaVine and Troy Daniels from getting 48 minutes apiece? I don't agree with that take one bit, and Flip likely doesn't either.
I would argue that Martin is a pretty big negative defensively, but at this point, perhaps improving our offense is our best chance at improving our defense. The more possessions we end with made buckets or free throws, the less run-outs and easy transition opportunities we give to our opponents.
But I agree and am board with your overall take. There is this myth that somehow the
only way young players can be developed is to cram as many minutes down their throats as possible, and that's just simply not true. It's also not fair to the development of the young guys that DO deserve playing time. We want Wiggins, Dieng, and Shabazz to be out there playing with other competent and experienced players.
Players can develop in all sorts of ways. In fact, the most improvement often happens through offseason work. Shabazz is the poster child for this. He played very few minutes last season, yet managed to develop just fine through a combination of the experience he did get (both in the NBA and D-league) plus an offseason of remaking his body.
Re: Rebuilding time...who goes?
Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:12 pm
by AbeVigodaLive
Agree with part of Long's post... I'm always also in the "trade anybody" if it's a good trade... at least when we're dealing with a 60-loss team. Or, even a 50+-loss team when healthy.
But, I would prefer to keep Wiggins to see where that goes. He has "superstar" potential, right? You gotta stick that one out. And Rubio might have more value here at the moment that anywhere else so I don't see a good trade coming out of that one.
Everybody else... from short-time underachievers like Thad Young to seemingly up-and-comers like Shabazz Muhammad... trade them to make the team better. It's not like they're part of a winning foundation or anything.
Re: Rebuilding time...who goes?
Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:26 pm
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
Agree Abe. I'm the one that floated the Shabazz trade, not because I actually think we should trade him, but that it is definitely a contrarian perspective and it would be interesting to see what value he would bring.
I think the reason folks reacted so vociferously to the Shabazz-trade idea was because they view his future value, based on his development trajectory thus far, as greater than whatever we could get in return today. I tend to agree, but still, never say never!
Re: Rebuilding time...who goes?
Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:58 pm
by AbeVigodaLive
Q12543 wrote:Agree Abe. I'm the one that floated the Shabazz trade, not because I actually think we should trade him, but that it is definitely a contrarian perspective and it would be interesting to see what value he would bring.
I think the reason folks reacted so vociferously to the Shabazz-trade idea was because they view his future value, based on his development trajectory thus far, as greater than whatever we could get in return today. I tend to agree, but still, never say never!
I'm less enthusiastic about Muhammad's long-term NBA prospects. I think he has a place in the league as a scorer, as long as his motor remains like it is. But I don't see a limited upside or anything. I think it's great that he's making the best of his opportunity playing for a terrible team. But that's just the thing... it's a terrible team. Let's give him more run as a fixture against other teams' top lineups and see whether he's more than "good stats guy on a terrible team" type.
It's tough to sorta rip a guy who is working his ass off in this mess to create a game/name for himself. But I don't know how much of it is legit yet.
Re: Rebuilding time...who goes?
Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:23 pm
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
Yeah, Muhammed has struggled a bit since being promoted to the starting lineup, but I don't see how being on a terrible team has padded his stats. If anything, the fact he's been able to score efficiently with very little help from others is very impressive. I would suspect that his propensity to make timely basket cuts and fill the lane on fast breaks will only make him even more efficient once Rubio is back.
I was wrong-headed in short-selling the guy throughout his rookie year. There are some guys I've pegged accurately early on, but I was wrong about him. I'm not about ready to short-sell him again! Players can keep improving well into their 4th or 5th year in the league. Hell, look at the massive leap Jimmy Butler took. No one saw this coming when he was a 1st or 2nd year player.
Re: Rebuilding time...who goes?
Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:26 pm
by thedoper
Q12543 wrote:Yeah, Muhammed has struggled a bit since being promoted to the starting lineup, but I don't see how being on a terrible team has padded his stats. If anything, the fact he's been able to score efficiently with very little help from others is very impressive. I would suspect that his propensity to make timely basket cuts and fill the lane on fast breaks will only make him even more efficient once Rubio is back.
I was wrong-headed in short-selling the guy throughout his rookie year. There are some guys I've pegged accurately early on, but I was wrong about him. I'm not about ready to short-sell him again! Players can keep improving well into their 4th or 5th year in the league. Hell, look at the massive leap Jimmy Butler took. No one saw this coming when he was a 1st or 2nd year player.
Lot of room on the Muhammed train. My main reason for always pulling for the guy was hearing everyone around him talk about his work ethic. The kid is ultra competitive. You see it in his game. I agree that it would be a mistake to doubt him unless something drastic happened with his progress.
Re: Rebuilding time...who goes?
Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:54 pm
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
I know this doesn't really fit here, but since doper brought up how he liked how people around Bazz talked about his work ethic, I'm going to say it anyway.
Go to YouTube and watch videos or read articles about how people around Karl Towns talk about him. Most say he goes above and beyond, does what is asked of him and more, terrific young man and a great work ethic. Listen to him talk and he has that "Kobe/LeBron thing" in that he's intelligent when he speaks and commands your attention. We can argue about physical play and all that between draft prospects, but I like to try (even though I'm not around these prospects in person) to get a feel for their mentality; where their head is. That is equally important and I expect Towns to wow front office, coaching members at the combine and closed workouts.
I guess what I'm saying is I'd really like Towns in a Wolves uniform. We're still a ways away from the draft, and the more we talk about needing a big, the more I think Towns would be awesome here.