Minnesota Sports Forum

longstrangetrip wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:LST -- I don't think Thibs' decision to give Dunn more minutes at the expense of Tyus was a reflection of Thibs' view of Tyus. More likely it was Thibs trying to put his 1st round pick to the test. The guys I talked to said that Thibs and the entire coaching staff came to really like Tyus's game. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Thibs thinks as highly of Tyus as he does Gorgui. But I sense Thibs sees him as one of the guys he wants to move forward with. Will Thibs sign a vet PG? I think so, but it doesn't necessarily mean the vet we sign would be ahead of Tyus in the rotation.

That's good to hear, Lip. We all know Tyus' physical limitations (although I think we tend to overstate them), but it's difficult to not recorgnize his skills and remarkable ability to win...he's won at every level, and made a bad Wolves' team better when he was on the court. Thibs' personnel and rotation decisions greatly frustrated me last year and I think cost us ten wins, and playing Dunn ahead of Tyus was one of his bad decisions. But at least the rationale of putting Dunn to the test at the expense of Tyus makes some sense. Dunn was his first big personnel decision and it's human nature to want to prove that you were right...and unfortunately Thibs seems to live in the upper quartile of stubbornness, so he will try even harder to show that he was right...even in the face of overwhelming evidence of not being right. Anyway, I'm quite comfortable with a Teague/Jones rotation at PG this season, and also expect Thibs to sign a veteran PG to play behind them.

While sometimes I think we overstate Dunn's actual defensive impact he certainly had a lot of value on that end which gave some legit reasons to play him espcially as the season wore on. I don't know how the minutes broke down but he clearly was used as a SG much more the last couple months often with Tyus. It's fair to quibble about whether Thibs should have played Tyus more over Dunn but I also think it makes sense for him to see what he had in him espcially when he gave you value defensively on a roster with few guys that did that. There have been some reports of teams have called on Tyus and the Wolves haven't moved him that should be noted as well. Maybe teams were offering very little but I think it's worth bringing to the conversation. We will see in a few months how much Thibs values Tyus.

Also I think LST is right about Tyus's physical limitations being overstated espcially if it's as a top backup.

lipoli390 wrote:LST -- I don't think Thibs' decision to give Dunn more minutes at the expense of Tyus was a reflection of Thibs' view of Tyus. More likely it was Thibs trying to put his 1st round pick to the test. The guys I talked to said that Thibs and the entire coaching staff came to really like Tyus's game. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Thibs thinks as highly of Tyus as he does Gorgui. But I sense Thibs sees him as one of the guys he wants to move forward with. Will Thibs sign a vet PG? I think so, but it doesn't necessarily mean the vet we sign would be ahead of Tyus in the rotation.

A quote from Thibs in Sid's column this morning that backs up Lip's assertion that Thibs likes Tyus:

"Tyus is having a great summer. That's the one thing that I really respect about the way Tyus approches things. He has been in almost every day, all summer long. He is in great shape right now...He shot the ball extremely well early in the season and dropped off a little bit. I think the conditioning will help him, and he's in great shape right now."

Thibs doesn't often speak glowingly of his players, so I take a lot from this statement. I continue to see Tyus as a big part of how much we improve next year...the Big 3 are a given, and I'm confident Teague and Gorgui will be fine too. But if Tyus can make big strides in his 3rd year and shoot closer to 40% on threes (he's certainly capable), that would mean a lot to this team.

Thought I'd come back to this thread with some reflections on what I would have done this summer if I had final authority over the Wolves front office.

1. I would have done the Butler deal, but would have pushed hard for the Bulls 2nd rounder. I have no idea whether Thibs pushed for it or not. But the fact that the Bulls ended up selling it for cash tells us it shouldn't have been a hard get for us. I still would have done the deal without getting the 2nd round pick, so i'm quibbling a bit on this one.

2. I would have kept Rubio, but I'm not down on what was effectively a swap of Rubio for Teague and a 2018 first round pick likely in the mid 20s. It's one of those things I wouldn't have done, but I'm not going to criticize the move, which has a strong rationale.

3. I would not have signed Taj for anything more than $7 million per year for up to 3 years. That probably means I wouldn't have signed Taj. Unlike the Rubio/Teague + 1st rounder, I consider the Taj signing a bad decision. As I've said before, it's not that I don't like Taj as a player. It's because $14 million per year for two years is way too much for what he brings in my view when considering our needs and the fact that the Gibson contract used up our remaining cap space.

4. With the $14 million in cap space saved by not signing Taj, I would have signed CJ Miles for around $7 million per year over and either Teo or Illyasova for about the same as CJin that order of preference.

5. Then I would have signed Luc Moute at the vet minimum and Crawford for the room exception.

lipoli390 wrote:Thought I'd come back to this thread with some reflections on what I would have done this summer if I had final authority over the Wolves front office.

1. I would have done the Butler deal, but would have pushed hard for the Bulls 2nd rounder. I have no idea whether Thibs pushed for it or not. But the fact that the Bulls ended up selling it for cash tells us it shouldn't have been a hard get for us. I still would have done the deal without getting the 2nd round pick, so i'm quibbling a bit on this one.

2. I would have kept Rubio, but I'm not down on what was effectively a swap of Rubio for Teague and a 2018 first round pick likely in the mid 20s. It's one of those things I wouldn't have done, but I'm not going to criticize the move, which has a strong rationale.

3. I would not have signed Taj for anything more than $7 million per year for up to 3 years. That probably means I wouldn't have signed Taj. Unlike the Rubio/Teague + 1st rounder, I consider the Taj signing a bad decision. As I've said before, it's not that I don't like Taj as a player. It's because $14 million per year for two years is way too much for what he brings in my view when considering our needs and the fact that the Gibson contract used up our remaining cap space.

4. With the $14 million in cap space saved by not signing Taj, I would have signed CJ Miles for around $7 million per year over and either Teo or Illyasova for about the same as CJin that order of preference.

5. Then I would have signed Luc Moute at the vet minimum and Crawford for the room exception.

I'd be absolutely on board with your plan but I am also fine with getting Taj. A couple thoughts.

It's been reported Luc wasn't coming here for the min. Do you have some in with him to convince him to come here? :)

I think Wolves fans have ended up overrating CJ miles to some extent. Look up his career stats. He has 2 seasons in his career where he has missed less than 10 games his is an injury risk (so is Illyasova and to be fair some extent Taj). His 3 point percentage has fluctuated to some degree with his career high being last year playing with Teague. His career high in MPG was 26 playing for a team without Paul George or much of anything on the wing although that team probably overachieved getting to 38 wins making a spirited run the 2nd half of the season and Miles was playing more minutes. I've thought the league seemed to underrate him throughout his career to some extent but I'm thinking it's possible we find the next CJ miles or Wayne Ellington type guy that's undervalued and will cost much less. This one comes back to the question of can Thibs and Layden fill out the bottom of their roster with some worthwhile players? We will see. I feel somewhat confident based on the market right now. There is a legit chance of them mitigating spending that money on Taj and still getting players to help on the wing. I think getting Anthony Brown on a 2 way contract was a pretty good move.

Edit:

One other thing that hasn't been mentioned much but in a few months Aldrich's non guaranteed deal for next season could have some value including bringing back a better player or one that fits the roster better on a longer contract from a team looking to save money or open up cap room for a FA run.

Monster -- I'd still take CJ for half the cost of Taj for two reasons. First, CJ would fit what I've considered our #1 need, namely a 2-way wing who can play SF or SG and hit threes. Second, he's half the cost. :) And that would have freed up significant money to fill another need on the roster -- whether a stretch 4 like Ilyasova or a 3-point shooting/playmaking guard like Teodosic. And I'm sure I could have persuaded Luc to come here for the vet minimum. :)

A lot of people on this message board complain about Gorgui's contract. But they will have nearly identical per year contracts and Gorgui's stats are slightly better than Gibson's with Gorgui just entering his prime and Gibson on the downside of his career. Again, I don't have a problem with signing Taj in the abstract. It's his contract and the fact that signing him for that amount used up all our remaining cap space. I've been watching the OKC/Orlando matchup from last season on NBA TV's marque matchups. Gibson is not the same player he was when he was in his 20s playing for Thibs. And even back then, Gibson was just OK. I think the Taj signing will go down as Thibs' one big mistake in an otherwise good summer for him as PBO.

Well, at least Thibs didn't sign Darko. :).

lipoli390 wrote:Monster -- I'd still take CJ for half the cost of Taj for two reasons. First, CJ would fit what I've considered our #1 need, namely a 2-way wing who can play SF or SG and hit threes. Second, he's half the cost. :) And that would have freed up significant money to fill another need on the roster -- whether a stretch 4 like Ilyasova or a 3-point shooting/playmaking guard like Teodosic. And I'm sure I could have persuaded Luc to come here for the vet minimum. :)

A lot of people on this message board complain about Gorgui's contract. But they will have nearly identical per year contracts and Gorgui's stats are slightly better than Gibson's with Gorgui just entering his prime and Gibson on the downside of his career. Again, I don't have a problem with signing Taj in the abstract. It's his contract and the fact that signing him for that amount used up all our remaining cap space. I've been watching the OKC/Orlando matchup from last season on NBA TV's marque matchups. Gibson is not the same player he was when he was in his 20s playing for Thibs. And even back then, Gibson was just OK. I think the Taj signing will go down as Thibs' one big mistake in an otherwise good summer for him as PBO.

Well, at least Thibs didn't sign Darko. :).

I also think the game has changed since he was in his 20s playing for Thibs. He has no range out to the 3-point line and PFs that don't have range are becoming less and less valuable.

Q12543 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Monster -- I'd still take CJ for half the cost of Taj for two reasons. First, CJ would fit what I've considered our #1 need, namely a 2-way wing who can play SF or SG and hit threes. Second, he's half the cost. :) And that would have freed up significant money to fill another need on the roster -- whether a stretch 4 like Ilyasova or a 3-point shooting/playmaking guard like Teodosic. And I'm sure I could have persuaded Luc to come here for the vet minimum. :)

A lot of people on this message board complain about Gorgui's contract. But they will have nearly identical per year contracts and Gorgui's stats are slightly better than Gibson's with Gorgui just entering his prime and Gibson on the downside of his career. Again, I don't have a problem with signing Taj in the abstract. It's his contract and the fact that signing him for that amount used up all our remaining cap space. I've been watching the OKC/Orlando matchup from last season on NBA TV's marque matchups. Gibson is not the same player he was when he was in his 20s playing for Thibs. And even back then, Gibson was just OK. I think the Taj signing will go down as Thibs' one big mistake in an otherwise good summer for him as PBO.

Well, at least Thibs didn't sign Darko. :).

I also think the game has changed since he was in his 20s playing for Thibs. He has no range out to the 3-point line and PFs that don't have range are becoming less and less valuable.

Lip I didn't watch that game but the other pieces of games Gibson looked better than I was expecting defensively. In those games he looked like he was still is able to guard on the perimeter which is really valuable.

One thing I. will point out is the Miles contract we were offering was supposed to be 10 million per so that's more than half of Taj. Maybe we could have got him for less you are obviously very persuasive. :) My only point was that Miles may be a bit overrated. I would have been happy getting him. I think we can all agree many players how we value them is subjective and that's not just fans you will probably find people varying widely on a number of guys that aren't say top 10 or so at their position.

It would be interesting to know what contract the Wolves offered Bazz and how much his accepting that number would have impacted other moves they made when it came to the Salary cap and how much money would have been left. Maybe we would have gotten Taj here for less money or gone another direction entirely.

Speaking of Darko this is a really interesting piece that just came out on Darko. The author spending some real time with the Darko of now. It's kinda long but I really enjoyed it.

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/20211833/nba-bust-darko-milicic-finds-success-back-home-serbia

Monster - I didn't see the report about us offering CJ $10 million per year. That's too much in my view. I don't think he's getting that much from Toronto. If the cost of getting CJ would have been $10 million per year, I'd have passed on him as well. Watching guys like Patterson, Ilyasova and Teodosic sign for less than $7 million per year suggests that the Wolves were offering more than market value for the guys they wanted.

lipoli390 wrote:Monster - I didn't see the report about us offering CJ $10 million per year. That's too much in my view. I don't think he's getting that much from Toronto. If the cost of getting CJ would have been $10 million per year, I'd have passed on him as well. Watching guys like Patterson, Ilyasova and Teodosic sign for less than $7 million per year suggests that the Wolves were offering more than market value for the guys they wanted.

I wonder if it is a better strategy when you are under the cap to wait it out. See who is left and then be able to offer about 3M a year for 3 guys rather than pay one bench guy 10M. a

bleedspeed177 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Monster - I didn't see the report about us offering CJ $10 million per year. That's too much in my view. I don't think he's getting that much from Toronto. If the cost of getting CJ would have been $10 million per year, I'd have passed on him as well. Watching guys like Patterson, Ilyasova and Teodosic sign for less than $7 million per year suggests that the Wolves were offering more than market value for the guys they wanted.

I wonder if it is a better strategy when you are under the cap to wait it out. See who is left and then be able to offer about 3M a year for 3 guys rather than pay one bench guy 10M. a

That's my thinking, Bleed. Unless there's a really key player available for a bargain price that you can't pass on. Otherwise, the way free agency has unfolded this summer, it seems clear that there's a lot of merit to waiting and getting decent bench role players for bargain prices. As an example, I thought Luc at the vet minimum was a great deal for the Rockets. Even earlier this summer we had very good role players like Patterson signing for $6.5 million. Then there were Teo, Ilyasova, Dedmon and others who were signed in the $6-7 million per year range. I believe Tyrke Evans signed for about $3.5 million per year. And most of these guys were signed to 1-2 year deals. So against that backdrop I don't think it makes sense in this market to pay $10 million plus for a role player. There are some exceptions, I think. For example, I think the Bucks did well shelling out $11 million per year to Tony Snell given his two-way play and youth (mid 20s). But for guys like Taj and CJ Miles, I'd say no. Both strike me as $7 million per year players in today's market.