Minnesota Sports Forum

A couple of things to consider.

1. The reason some people here are interested in dealing Butler is why some teams might not pony up a ton for a theoretical deal. Some team will give up a nice package if you were dealing Butler way for a rebuild but will it be enough to trade the Wolves best player and possibly the 2nd best player in franchise history at a time when you would like to take some sort of step forward? There is risk in keeping Butler but there is risk in dealing him away. Thibs ain't dealing him and IMHO some people are undervaluing his effect on this franchise in a positive way.

2. Lip said the Wolves only have #20 pick and mid-level but they also have the bi-annual exception to use as well and with Crawford opting out unless they resign Belly to a pretty big co tract they should have the full mid-level to work with.

3. Jon K said that he thinks Rose is likely to end up settling for the vet min unless the Wolves really strike out and have some of the mid-level left and he gets some of it. He said he thinks Rose likely wants to stay here play for Thibs etc and his value around the league just isn't more than the vet min. Jon knows more than me and this makes sense and kinda what i was thinking. Rose at the vet min is a good gamble and a chance to get a pretty worthwhile player for cheap. Thanks Thibs!!!....assuming we do get him for cheap.

4. I really do think we will be able to sign Belly back for a reasonable deal. Who is gonna step up to try and sign this guy for the full-mid level? You might have some legit starting level players like KCP or Avery Bradley that end up having to take that kind of a deal. Illyasova might not get that kind of money. I just don't think Belly is gonna have that market that prices himself out of the Wolves price range plus he is a RFA which makes teams a little less likely to make an offer. Now I could see him only wanting to do a one year deal because he is frustrated with his role but I think it's very likely he is back with the Wolves next season. It only takes one team though to make an offer.

Edit: I am going to post this in the offseason thread also I probably should have posted it there first.

lipoli390 wrote:

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:I'd do that Wiggins trade in a heartbeat.

Wiggins isn't worth anywhere NEAR that contract (4 or 5 more years?!). Eating the Parsons money for two years gets us out of that deal quicker.

The thought of getting Doncic makes me salivate, but I'd take a lot of those guys in the top several picks. There are a lot of bigs there who, if they worked out, might push KAT back to the 4, which isn't ideal. But a lot of those guys look like they have a pretty modern skillset, including some range. Carter or Bamba could both be potentially good next to Towns. Watching Gobert's impact this year defensively makes me more interested in a guy like Bamba. Porter's health scares me a bit, but he'd allow KAT to stay at the 5. We could also just try to trade back a bit and get Mikal Bridges, who would be a GREAT fit.

As far as the impact of losing Wiggins, Honestly, there are probably a decent number of role players you could just sign and plug into Wiggins' starting spot and the team would honestly be just as good and probably better because we'd have more scoring coming from more efficient shooters who do more to help make their team better.

For those worried about losing Butler to free agency, I don't think trading him is the best response. I think he's much more likely to go if we DON'T replace Wiggins with a more 3 and D guy who would actually fit. Instead, make it clear that you are building around Butler and Towns. Trading Butler should get a good haul, but he's an actual star, and there's never a sure thing you'll get a star out of the return.

Drew -- I just don't see the Grizzlies giving us the 4th pick for Wiggins. It's just not going to happen. But I'm fairly certain they'd do the deal for Butler and perhaps give us another asset - maybe their second round pick. That's a realistic deal and one I think the Wolves should do but won't as long as Thibodeau runs the organization. I just don't see much merit in building around the 29 year old Butler and 23 year old Towns. The age differential coupled with Butler's injury propensity, Golden State's continuing prowess the next couple seasons, the Wolves cap situation, and the risk Butler bolts after next season make the Butler/KAT pairing a bad one.

This team with that pair and all the other players Thibodeau brought in barely ended up as the 8th seed last season. The Wolves have only around $5.5 million and the 20th pick in this year's draft to improve the roster this summer. This team simply won't be in a position to compete with the Warriors or the Rockets next season and may not even be competitive with the Lakers. Butler will miss at least 15 games because he almost always does and Wiggins hasn't given us much reason to believe he'll take a big leap forward. Gibson had a career year last season and won't likely play at that same level next season.

Bottom line is that the Wolves were the 7th oldest team in the League last season. The organization with its current roster, including Butler, is clearly not on a trajectory to eventually displace the Warriors and win the Western Conference. The organization should be forcused on extending KAT and then pursuing young high upside players through the draft in search of another young allstar to pair with KAT for the next 7+ years. Butler is the one asset we have who could get us a pick high enough to potentially land that kind of young talent. The time to act is this summer. But alas, Thibodeau will probably keep Butler, re-sign Rose and trade for Lual Deng as he continues his nostalgic effort to put the old band back together.

I get the argument for trading Butler and share some of the sentiments. For me, the best arguments are about timing. It would be better to match up a great player closer to Towns' age and whose prime will hit as the Warriors are finally starting to fade.

For the right deal, and if Thibs were willing to overhaul the roster and actually build wisely around Towns, I would support trading Butler, although that's hard to admit because I think he's the second best player in franchise history and I love his intensity and versatility.

Thibs won't do it because he's in win-now mode, and after over a decade of losing, I can respect that. But I wish Thibs were doing it smarter--balanced rotations, more efficient 3 and D guys, more ball movement, better defense, etc.

But to me, the principle of getting rid of a terrible contract trumps all of that. Wiggins is not worth anywhere near that contract. He's an empty calories--he can score, but he's inefficient and doesn't do much else. Even with the baby steps he made defensively last year, he's still a bad defender. He has terrible handles and floor vision, and lacks the mentality to make hustle plays more than every once in a while. You'll never win with him as a featured player on your roster. Every minute on the floor and every dollar of our cap space invested in him is an inefficient investment, and the sooner we get out, the more we'll cut our losses because his trade value will not go up. So the first priority should be getting rid of him for the best possible deal.

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:I'd do that Wiggins trade in a heartbeat.

Wiggins isn't worth anywhere NEAR that contract (4 or 5 more years?!). Eating the Parsons money for two years gets us out of that deal quicker.

The thought of getting Doncic makes me salivate, but I'd take a lot of those guys in the top several picks. There are a lot of bigs there who, if they worked out, might push KAT back to the 4, which isn't ideal. But a lot of those guys look like they have a pretty modern skillset, including some range. Carter or Bamba could both be potentially good next to Towns. Watching Gobert's impact this year defensively makes me more interested in a guy like Bamba. Porter's health scares me a bit, but he'd allow KAT to stay at the 5. We could also just try to trade back a bit and get Mikal Bridges, who would be a GREAT fit.

As far as the impact of losing Wiggins, Honestly, there are probably a decent number of role players you could just sign and plug into Wiggins' starting spot and the team would honestly be just as good and probably better because we'd have more scoring coming from more efficient shooters who do more to help make their team better.

For those worried about losing Butler to free agency, I don't think trading him is the best response. I think he's much more likely to go if we DON'T replace Wiggins with a more 3 and D guy who would actually fit. Instead, make it clear that you are building around Butler and Towns. Trading Butler should get a good haul, but he's an actual star, and there's never a sure thing you'll get a star out of the return.

Drew -- I just don't see the Grizzlies giving us the 4th pick for Wiggins. It's just not going to happen. But I'm fairly certain they'd do the deal for Butler and perhaps give us another asset - maybe their second round pick. That's a realistic deal and one I think the Wolves should do but won't as long as Thibodeau runs the organization. I just don't see much merit in building around the 29 year old Butler and 23 year old Towns. The age differential coupled with Butler's injury propensity, Golden State's continuing prowess the next couple seasons, the Wolves cap situation, and the risk Butler bolts after next season make the Butler/KAT pairing a bad one.

This team with that pair and all the other players Thibodeau brought in barely ended up as the 8th seed last season. The Wolves have only around $5.5 million and the 20th pick in this year's draft to improve the roster this summer. This team simply won't be in a position to compete with the Warriors or the Rockets next season and may not even be competitive with the Lakers. Butler will miss at least 15 games because he almost always does and Wiggins hasn't given us much reason to believe he'll take a big leap forward. Gibson had a career year last season and won't likely play at that same level next season.

Bottom line is that the Wolves were the 7th oldest team in the League last season. The organization with its current roster, including Butler, is clearly not on a trajectory to eventually displace the Warriors and win the Western Conference. The organization should be forcused on extending KAT and then pursuing young high upside players through the draft in search of another young allstar to pair with KAT for the next 7+ years. Butler is the one asset we have who could get us a pick high enough to potentially land that kind of young talent. The time to act is this summer. But alas, Thibodeau will probably keep Butler, re-sign Rose and trade for Lual Deng as he continues his nostalgic effort to put the old band back together.

I get the argument for trading Butler and share some of the sentiments. For me, the best arguments are about timing. It would be better to match up a great player closer to Towns' age and whose prime will hit as the Warriors are finally starting to fade.

For the right deal, and if Thibs were willing to overhaul the roster and actually build wisely around Towns, I would support trading Butler, although that's hard to admit because I think he's the second best player in franchise history and I love his intensity and versatility.

Thibs won't do it because he's in win-now mode, and after over a decade of losing, I can respect that. But I wish Thibs were doing it smarter--balanced rotations, more efficient 3 and D guys, more ball movement, better defense, etc.

But to me, the principle of getting rid of a terrible contract trumps all of that. Wiggins is not worth anywhere near that contract. He's an empty calories--he can score, but he's inefficient and doesn't do much else. Even with the baby steps he made defensively last year, he's still a bad defender. He has terrible handles and floor vision, and lacks the mentality to make hustle plays more than every once in a while. You'll never win with him as a featured player on your roster. Every minute on the floor and every dollar of our cap space invested in him is an inefficient investment, and the sooner we get out, the more we'll cut our losses because his trade value will not go up. So the first priority should be getting rid of him for the best possible deal.

Drew, I generally agree with you on Wiggins. I just don't think Memphis would swap their #4 pick for him. I think the best we could do would be #8 from Cleveland. I'd do that deal. Wiggins for #8 and Thompson is one possiblility. Maybe the Clippers would do #12 and D. Jordan for Wiggins. What do you think of that? That deal would certainly work for Thibodeau because it would be a win-now move that keeps his favorite player.

lipoli390 wrote:

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:I'd do that Wiggins trade in a heartbeat.

Wiggins isn't worth anywhere NEAR that contract (4 or 5 more years?!). Eating the Parsons money for two years gets us out of that deal quicker.

The thought of getting Doncic makes me salivate, but I'd take a lot of those guys in the top several picks. There are a lot of bigs there who, if they worked out, might push KAT back to the 4, which isn't ideal. But a lot of those guys look like they have a pretty modern skillset, including some range. Carter or Bamba could both be potentially good next to Towns. Watching Gobert's impact this year defensively makes me more interested in a guy like Bamba. Porter's health scares me a bit, but he'd allow KAT to stay at the 5. We could also just try to trade back a bit and get Mikal Bridges, who would be a GREAT fit.

As far as the impact of losing Wiggins, Honestly, there are probably a decent number of role players you could just sign and plug into Wiggins' starting spot and the team would honestly be just as good and probably better because we'd have more scoring coming from more efficient shooters who do more to help make their team better.

For those worried about losing Butler to free agency, I don't think trading him is the best response. I think he's much more likely to go if we DON'T replace Wiggins with a more 3 and D guy who would actually fit. Instead, make it clear that you are building around Butler and Towns. Trading Butler should get a good haul, but he's an actual star, and there's never a sure thing you'll get a star out of the return.

Drew -- I just don't see the Grizzlies giving us the 4th pick for Wiggins. It's just not going to happen. But I'm fairly certain they'd do the deal for Butler and perhaps give us another asset - maybe their second round pick. That's a realistic deal and one I think the Wolves should do but won't as long as Thibodeau runs the organization. I just don't see much merit in building around the 29 year old Butler and 23 year old Towns. The age differential coupled with Butler's injury propensity, Golden State's continuing prowess the next couple seasons, the Wolves cap situation, and the risk Butler bolts after next season make the Butler/KAT pairing a bad one.

This team with that pair and all the other players Thibodeau brought in barely ended up as the 8th seed last season. The Wolves have only around $5.5 million and the 20th pick in this year's draft to improve the roster this summer. This team simply won't be in a position to compete with the Warriors or the Rockets next season and may not even be competitive with the Lakers. Butler will miss at least 15 games because he almost always does and Wiggins hasn't given us much reason to believe he'll take a big leap forward. Gibson had a career year last season and won't likely play at that same level next season.

Bottom line is that the Wolves were the 7th oldest team in the League last season. The organization with its current roster, including Butler, is clearly not on a trajectory to eventually displace the Warriors and win the Western Conference. The organization should be forcused on extending KAT and then pursuing young high upside players through the draft in search of another young allstar to pair with KAT for the next 7+ years. Butler is the one asset we have who could get us a pick high enough to potentially land that kind of young talent. The time to act is this summer. But alas, Thibodeau will probably keep Butler, re-sign Rose and trade for Lual Deng as he continues his nostalgic effort to put the old band back together.

I get the argument for trading Butler and share some of the sentiments. For me, the best arguments are about timing. It would be better to match up a great player closer to Towns' age and whose prime will hit as the Warriors are finally starting to fade.

For the right deal, and if Thibs were willing to overhaul the roster and actually build wisely around Towns, I would support trading Butler, although that's hard to admit because I think he's the second best player in franchise history and I love his intensity and versatility.

Thibs won't do it because he's in win-now mode, and after over a decade of losing, I can respect that. But I wish Thibs were doing it smarter--balanced rotations, more efficient 3 and D guys, more ball movement, better defense, etc.

But to me, the principle of getting rid of a terrible contract trumps all of that. Wiggins is not worth anywhere near that contract. He's an empty calories--he can score, but he's inefficient and doesn't do much else. Even with the baby steps he made defensively last year, he's still a bad defender. He has terrible handles and floor vision, and lacks the mentality to make hustle plays more than every once in a while. You'll never win with him as a featured player on your roster. Every minute on the floor and every dollar of our cap space invested in him is an inefficient investment, and the sooner we get out, the more we'll cut our losses because his trade value will not go up. So the first priority should be getting rid of him for the best possible deal.

Drew, I generally agree with you on Wiggins. I just don't think Memphis would swap their #4 pick for him. I think the best we could do would be #8 from Cleveland. I'd do that deal. Wiggins for #8 and Thompson is one possiblility. Maybe the Clippers would do #12 and D. Jordan for Wiggins. What do you think of that? That deal would certainly work for Thibodeau because it would be a win-now move that keeps his favorite player.

The idea that Wiggins and his contract are an inefficient use of resources in every way is a worthwhile concept. The problem I see is that what are you going to get back for him in a deal that moves the needle? If you are absolutely convinced he won't be much more than he is now then maybe it doesn't matter too much what you get back. It kinda reminds me of when we had Derrick Williams. I wasn't a believer in his talent as a star from the beginning but as time went on it felt like we may as well hold onto him and hope he was at least a decent starter based on the meh returns that seemed like he would bring. Ironically The deal brining Luc here was actually really good if we would have kept him here. Oops. Wiggins is a better player but also got that 2nd big contract. I feel like we should and will hold onto him another year and see if that effort/defensive progress he made (plus was clearly physically stronger) might lead to something more palatable or even exciting.

lipoli390 wrote:

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:I'd do that Wiggins trade in a heartbeat.

Wiggins isn't worth anywhere NEAR that contract (4 or 5 more years?!). Eating the Parsons money for two years gets us out of that deal quicker.

The thought of getting Doncic makes me salivate, but I'd take a lot of those guys in the top several picks. There are a lot of bigs there who, if they worked out, might push KAT back to the 4, which isn't ideal. But a lot of those guys look like they have a pretty modern skillset, including some range. Carter or Bamba could both be potentially good next to Towns. Watching Gobert's impact this year defensively makes me more interested in a guy like Bamba. Porter's health scares me a bit, but he'd allow KAT to stay at the 5. We could also just try to trade back a bit and get Mikal Bridges, who would be a GREAT fit.

As far as the impact of losing Wiggins, Honestly, there are probably a decent number of role players you could just sign and plug into Wiggins' starting spot and the team would honestly be just as good and probably better because we'd have more scoring coming from more efficient shooters who do more to help make their team better.

For those worried about losing Butler to free agency, I don't think trading him is the best response. I think he's much more likely to go if we DON'T replace Wiggins with a more 3 and D guy who would actually fit. Instead, make it clear that you are building around Butler and Towns. Trading Butler should get a good haul, but he's an actual star, and there's never a sure thing you'll get a star out of the return.

Drew -- I just don't see the Grizzlies giving us the 4th pick for Wiggins. It's just not going to happen. But I'm fairly certain they'd do the deal for Butler and perhaps give us another asset - maybe their second round pick. That's a realistic deal and one I think the Wolves should do but won't as long as Thibodeau runs the organization. I just don't see much merit in building around the 29 year old Butler and 23 year old Towns. The age differential coupled with Butler's injury propensity, Golden State's continuing prowess the next couple seasons, the Wolves cap situation, and the risk Butler bolts after next season make the Butler/KAT pairing a bad one.

This team with that pair and all the other players Thibodeau brought in barely ended up as the 8th seed last season. The Wolves have only around $5.5 million and the 20th pick in this year's draft to improve the roster this summer. This team simply won't be in a position to compete with the Warriors or the Rockets next season and may not even be competitive with the Lakers. Butler will miss at least 15 games because he almost always does and Wiggins hasn't given us much reason to believe he'll take a big leap forward. Gibson had a career year last season and won't likely play at that same level next season.

Bottom line is that the Wolves were the 7th oldest team in the League last season. The organization with its current roster, including Butler, is clearly not on a trajectory to eventually displace the Warriors and win the Western Conference. The organization should be forcused on extending KAT and then pursuing young high upside players through the draft in search of another young allstar to pair with KAT for the next 7+ years. Butler is the one asset we have who could get us a pick high enough to potentially land that kind of young talent. The time to act is this summer. But alas, Thibodeau will probably keep Butler, re-sign Rose and trade for Lual Deng as he continues his nostalgic effort to put the old band back together.

You have it exactly right Lip. This post details the situation perfectly. Unfortunately Thibs isn't going to deal Butler. Thibs will get fired, and Butler will leave. The time to act is definitely now. This roster is poorly constructed given the assets we had a couple years ago. We are going to miss this opportunity and the Wolves will be playing for 8th place this year. I know a lot of fans are just glad to be in playoff contention, I'm not.

Once the season got rolling we were 10-11 in the last 21 games Butler missed. I can't remember if Teague missed any of those games. If for some reason Doncic is still there at 4, you have to make that move for the future and I think we can still be a playoff team with the right moves. There are a lot of possibilities you can explore including trading Gibsons expiring to a playoff team for a decent asset (although I think we miss the playoffs for sure without Taj) We could look at moving Deing with an asset to get a better fitting piece. You could look at trading Aldrich's low cost expiring for someone like Ross or Lou Williams. Chicago might not want Lavine back, maybe they would trade for him back in a sign and trade for Teague and the 20th or a future draft pick. Quite a few other ways we could go but the possibilities of building for the future would be there while still being somewhat competitive with the aging super teams waiting for our time to shine.

We will not make the playoffs if we trade Butler and that's just something you can't do going into KAT's contract negotiations. We're a .500 team without Jimmy. That's not good enough in the West and that step back may finish off this franchise for another decade.

khans2k5 wrote:We will not make the playoffs if we trade Butler and that's just something you can't do going into KAT's contract negotiations. We're a .500 team without Jimmy. That's not good enough in the West and that step back may finish off this franchise for another decade.

I disagree. We would probably be fighting for the last spot just like this year. Jimmy's not going to play 82 anyway. I think holding on to Butler has a better chance of harming us for the next decade than trading him does.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:We will not make the playoffs if we trade Butler and that's just something you can't do going into KAT's contract negotiations. We're a .500 team without Jimmy. That's not good enough in the West and that step back may finish off this franchise for another decade.

I disagree. We would probably be fighting for the last spot just like this year. Jimmy's not going to play 82 anyway. I think holding on to Butler has a better chance of harming us for the next decade than trading him does.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:We will not make the playoffs if we trade Butler and that's just something you can't do going into KAT's contract negotiations. We're a .500 team without Jimmy. That's not good enough in the West and that step back may finish off this franchise for another decade.

I disagree. We would probably be fighting for the last spot just like this year. Jimmy's not going to play 82 anyway. I think holding on to Butler has a better chance of harming us for the next decade than trading him does.

Without Jimmy? No way.

At the rate this offseason is going, Denver and LA are gonna take 2 playoff spots. We might be one of the ones out. It's illogical to think we could trade or let Jimmy go and improve.

If we can get a top 10 pick (or a good 3 and D starter role player) for Wiggins I'd do it at this point. Wiggins has some great talents, but I don't think he has the between the ears and effort needed to reach his potential. Couple that with the fact he's on a max contract for his age/experience...well cap relief and a useful cheaper player sounds pretty good to me.

Could Wiggins prove me wrong? Sure, and if he's on the Wolves I hope he does, but right now he's holding this team back more than he's helping it.