Pork was right

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Some good posts, coyote...I think you describe very well the emotional roller coaster Ricky has put us on since we drafted him.

I also have seen some unusual TOs from Ricky this year, which is why I was surprised to see he is having his best season ever in protecting the ball...only 2 TOs per game compared to a still good 2.8 for his career. And his A:TO ratio of 3.37 ranks only behind Ish Smith and Chris Paul among starting PGs...that's pretty good. I think Ricky's numbers are down because of the odd way Thibs sometimes uses him...especially in the last half of games. Yes, his shooting is poor this year, but it's just weird to have Ricky in the corner with a wing handling the ball at the top of the key. A veteran PG with such a good A:TO ratio needs to be given the keys and allowed to direct the offense (as he so often does in our terrific first quarters). Why Thibs changes the flow of the offense in second halves is counterintuitive and baffling to me.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I don't think those of us that are Rubio defenders ever made the case that he could take a team on his back and will them to victory, ala LeBron or Westbrook or even Lillard. On the other hand, the numbers speak for themselves on his positive impact (up until this year), yet many of his fiercest critics choose to ignore those numbers and instead use the generalized "but the team isn't winning" argument that he is not a good PG.

Brooklyn brought up a great example in John Wall as a PG that most here would undoubtedly rank higher than Rubio, yet Washington is struggling yet again this year. So I guess that means he's not very good, right??? The other guy I would cite in a similar boat is DeMarcus Cousins. Sacramento has had very little success with him being a key part of the team over multiple coaches and seasons. So I guess that means he's not a very good player either....or does the "team success = player effectiveness" rule not apply to them?

None of this diminishes the fact Rubio has not been very good this year, but once again, neither has his team mates.

We're nearing a dangerous rabbit hole. I specifically wrote "more" games in relation to the paltry number of games the Wolves have won with him here. I didn't claim Rubio should be the guy dragging the corpses of Michael Gelabale or Anthony Randolph to the playoffs. That's a huge difference.

Maybe the Wolves would have won even fewer games without Rubio (they did play worse when he was injured). I'm merely pointing out that they've been shitty year-in and year-out with Rubio. Is it all his fault? Of course not.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I don't think those of us that are Rubio defenders ever made the case that he could take a team on his back and will them to victory, ala LeBron or Westbrook or even Lillard. On the other hand, the numbers speak for themselves on his positive impact (up until this year), yet many of his fiercest critics choose to ignore those numbers and instead use the generalized "but the team isn't winning" argument that he is not a good PG.

Brooklyn brought up a great example in John Wall as a PG that most here would undoubtedly rank higher than Rubio, yet Washington is struggling yet again this year. So I guess that means he's not very good, right??? The other guy I would cite in a similar boat is DeMarcus Cousins. Sacramento has had very little success with him being a key part of the team over multiple coaches and seasons. So I guess that means he's not a very good player either....or does the "team success = player effectiveness" rule not apply to them?

None of this diminishes the fact Rubio has not been very good this year, but once again, neither has his team mates.

We're nearing a dangerous rabbit hole. I specifically wrote "more" games in relation to the paltry number of games the Wolves have won with him here. I didn't claim Rubio should be the guy dragging the corpses of Michael Gelabale or Anthony Randolph to the playoffs. That's a huge difference.

Maybe the Wolves would have won even fewer games without Rubio (they did play worse when he was injured). I'm merely pointing out that they've been shitty year-in and year-out with Rubio. Is it all his fault? Of course not.

Abe, I'm not singling you out. It's a common argument from the most strident "anti-Rubio-ists". I was just pointing out that if those guys are consistent, they need to declare John Wall and DeMarcus Cousins as below average players too.

My guess is that none of this will be relevant in another year. I truly believe Dunn is a better version of Rubio defensively. And with the ball increasingly in the other players' hands, it somewhat mitigates his inferiority as a play maker versus Rubio. All he has to do is knock down shots on a semi-consistent basis (the bar is pretty low here) and Rubio instantly becomes redundant in Thibs' system.

[Brooklyn_Wolves [enjin:14608167]]

Here's my only post I found about Rubio last season (I rarely post there):

"Rubio is a 36% shooter. Granted, he has other magical gifts, but he's still just an average starting PG when you consider the complete package."

I discussed more about Rubio in 2014 than any other season because of the crazy 4th quarter meltdowns. I was critical of Rubio for being PART of those... and for not improving much as a player... but you guys have heard all that stuff here countless times.

Vengeance will be mine for making me waste time by searching for that stuff. You got me, dammit.


[Note: Unless I'm missing something... post the link if I am?]

Nah, that's not the post. And I wasn't trying to be exact when I typed a year or so. It's probably longer than that ( time flies fast, doesn't it?) That post was a good paragraph long and showed your beliefs really well. I don't care for searching it. I just tell you not to be ashamed to be yourself. After all, Rubio's end is near and "porkchop" will be very trendy or if it isn't already.

[Coolbreeze44]

I think we forget the Adelman years and how he coached Rubio. At the time I hated the way Rick took the flair out of Ricky's game and made him so mechanical. It was then that Ricky did a lot of time standing in the corner after getting the ball into the front court. My point is what we're seeing this year really isn't that new. I can only guess these coaches are trying to milk the most out of Ricky's strengths while attempting to minimize his inadequacies on the offensive end. Those inadequacies are real, and NBA coaches WILL take advantage of them. So I believe getting the ball out of his hands relatively early in the shot clock is a reaction to how defense's are playing us.

[Monster]

I think we forget the Adelman years and how he coached Rubio. At the time I hated the way Rick took the flair out of Ricky's game and made him so mechanical. It was then that Ricky did a lot of time standing in the corner after getting the ball into the front court. My point is what we're seeing this year really isn't that new. I can only guess these coaches are trying to milk the most out of Ricky's strengths while attempting to minimize his inadequacies on the offensive end. Those inadequacies are real, and NBA coaches WILL take advantage of them. So I believe getting the ball out of his hands relatively early in the shot clock is a reaction to how defense's are playing us.

Yep this isn't new thanks for bringing that up.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Here's my only post I found about Rubio last season (I rarely post there):

"Rubio is a 36% shooter. Granted, he has other magical gifts, but he's still just an average starting PG when you consider the complete package."

I discussed more about Rubio in 2014 than any other season because of the crazy 4th quarter meltdowns. I was critical of Rubio for being PART of those... and for not improving much as a player... but you guys have heard all that stuff here countless times.

Vengeance will be mine for making me waste time by searching for that stuff. You got me, dammit.


[Note: Unless I'm missing something... post the link if I am?]

Nah, that's not the post. And I wasn't trying to be exact when I typed a year or so. It's probably longer than that ( time flies fast, doesn't it?) That post was a good paragraph long and showed your beliefs really well. I don't care for searching it. I just tell you not to be ashamed to be yourself. After all, Rubio's end is near and "porkchop" will be very trendy or if it isn't already.

I assumed you might be trolling in your first post. Now I know you are. Fair enough.

I was confused at first because we don't normally play that game here.

[Monster]

I've generally liked where Abe has come from in the Rubio discussions. He has been realistic about Rubio even though he really is a big Rubio fan. I'm sure he will post something in response to this... :)

We keep hearing and to a great extent rightfully so Rubio is what he is he hasn't improved etc. I've suggested the last couple years some sort of moderate improvement mainly in his shooting was still possible. Maybe there is still a glimmer of hope and for me that's basically his ability to hit a solid percentage from 3. I think there is a decent chance of that. Ok back to he is what he is...I'll remind again that even though he has been in the league for 6 seasons now and played professionally and on his national team he still has only played 293 NBA games. That's still about 3.5 NBA seasons worth of games and probably a forth to a third of those games he was working his way back from a significant injury. I'm not making excuses or suggesting he has massive upside but in some ways he isn't quite the vet we assume he is because how long he has been here and his obvious high level abilities to play the PG position in many aspects. It's rarely brought up that he has now played for 4 head coaches. Does this mean Rubio is sole super awesome stud we should keep at all costs and he is the answer at PG? Nope. I don't want to treat the guy with kid gloves either I just think at times we should take a deep breath and remind ourselves he has played about 60 more games than Dieng. Is it put up or shut up time for him? Yeah and I have been saying that to a certain extent about him this season for probably a year and a half. The good news is that I could see a team thinking they could get a better version of Rubio if they make a move for him which I do think will happen eventually because like Q said Dunn is likely better defensively and likely a better shooter and scorer. I think he will likely be good enough to facilitate the offense with the talent around him. Basically he is going to be a better version of what Rubio except obviously not quite the maestro as a PG but the reality is Rubio likely isn't good enough to have an offense built around that ability...unless maybe it's a team filled with a bunch of shooters...maybe. Even in today's NBA seeing that type of collective shooting talent on one squad that you drop Rubio in with the right coach seems unlikely. He can still be a good player for a few teams that may need a young but experienced PG. Sacramento has a bunch of young bigs they seem like an interesting trade partner.

[Brooklyn_Wolves [enjin:14608167]]

I think we forget the Adelman years and how he coached Rubio. At the time I hated the way Rick took the flair out of Ricky's game and made him so mechanical. It was then that Ricky did a lot of time standing in the corner after getting the ball into the front court. My point is what we're seeing this year really isn't that new. I can only guess these coaches are trying to milk the most out of Ricky's strengths while attempting to minimize his inadequacies on the offensive end. Those inadequacies are real, and NBA coaches WILL take advantage of them. So I believe getting the ball out of his hands relatively early in the shot clock is a reaction to how defense's are playing us.

I don't think it was about Rubio for Adelman. It was more about his patented offense. As soon as Rick felt that he had a good chance (roster wise) to install his offense he went for it. And even then Rick didn't really take away the ball from Rubio as much as Thibs does. Everything is down: time with the ball, numbers of touches, dribbles and time per touch.
http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?sort=TOUCHES&dir=1
http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?sort=TOUCHES&dir=1&Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

And Rubio was in the game long enough and had been scouted enough many years ago. The notion that teams started to play him differently only this season is laughable. I heard it several years ago,

[Coolbreeze44]

I think we forget the Adelman years and how he coached Rubio. At the time I hated the way Rick took the flair out of Ricky's game and made him so mechanical. It was then that Ricky did a lot of time standing in the corner after getting the ball into the front court. My point is what we're seeing this year really isn't that new. I can only guess these coaches are trying to milk the most out of Ricky's strengths while attempting to minimize his inadequacies on the offensive end. Those inadequacies are real, and NBA coaches WILL take advantage of them. So I believe getting the ball out of his hands relatively early in the shot clock is a reaction to how defense's are playing us.

I don't think it was about Rubio for Adelman. It was more about his patented offense. As soon as Rick felt that he had a good chance (roster wise) to install his offense he went for it. And even then Rick didn't really take away the ball from Rubio as much as Thibs does. Everything is down: time with the ball, numbers of touches, dribbles and time per touch.
http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?sort=TOUCHES&dir=1
http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?sort=TOUCHES&dir=1&Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

And Rubio was in the game long enough and had been scouted enough many years ago. The notion that teams started to play him differently only this season is laughable. I heard it several years ago,

Who said teams started to play him differently only this season?