Fuel For The Wiggins Skeptics

[MikkeMan]

I think that Wiggins non gambling stay in his man defense style nicely complements Rubio's go after every available ball stat stuffing style.

I also think it used to be so that stellar non-gambling man to man defense was valued much more about 25 years ago.

For example Joe Dumars was widely considered as one of the best perimeter defenders when he was in prime. Here are Dumars' defensive stats compared to Wiggins:

Dumars DRB% 6.7 STL% 1.2, BLK% 0.0
Wiggins DRB% 6.7 STL% 0.9, BLK% 1.6

Dumars numbers are from 89-90 season when Dumars was all star, Detroit won 2nd championship and Dumars got selected to all defensive 1st team.

So Wiggins is statistically at least as good as Joe Dumars was defensively. If he is capable to play really great individual man to man defense, I think his sub-par 'defensive numbers' should not prevent him to be considered as one of the best perimeter defensive players.

One thing that I would like to see more is that Wiggins would guard opponents best perimeter player regardless of his position. I can understand that Sam wants him to save some energy to offensive end during the game and thus typically Prince might be guarding better of the wings. But in the end of game, when we absolutely need a defensive stop, I want to see that Andrew guards CP3, Curry, Westbrook, Harden etc.

[bleedspeed]

[AbeVigodaLive]

I think that Wiggins non gambling stay in his man defense style nicely complements Rubio's go after every available ball stat stuffing style.

I also think it used to be so that stellar non-gambling man to man defense was valued much more about 25 years ago.

For example Joe Dumars was widely considered as one of the best perimeter defenders when he was in prime. Here are Dumars' defensive stats compared to Wiggins:

Dumars DRB% 6.7 STL% 1.2, BLK% 0.0
Wiggins DRB% 6.7 STL% 0.9, BLK% 1.6

Dumars numbers are from 89-90 season when Dumars was all star, Detroit won 2nd championship and Dumars got selected to all defensive 1st team.

So Wiggins is statistically at least as good as Joe Dumars was defensively. If he is capable to play really great individual man to man defense, I think his sub-par 'defensive numbers' should not prevent him to be considered as one of the best perimeter defensive players.

One thing that I would like to see more is that Wiggins would guard opponents best perimeter player regardless of his position. I can understand that Sam wants him to save some energy to offensive end during the game and thus typically Prince might be guarding better of the wings. But in the end of game, when we absolutely need a defensive stop, I want to see that Andrew guards CP3, Curry, Westbrook, Harden etc.

But you do have to take into account the way the game has changed. For example, Bryant Big Country Reeves could see the floor in the 90s and score in the teens. He wouldn't see the floor today. The game has changed.

It's not enough to stay in front of your man. Because the vast majority of the time, your defensive responsibilities go beyond the guy standing in front of you.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I think that Wiggins non gambling stay in his man defense style nicely complements Rubio's go after every available ball stat stuffing style.

I also think it used to be so that stellar non-gambling man to man defense was valued much more about 25 years ago.

For example Joe Dumars was widely considered as one of the best perimeter defenders when he was in prime. Here are Dumars' defensive stats compared to Wiggins:

Dumars DRB% 6.7 STL% 1.2, BLK% 0.0
Wiggins DRB% 6.7 STL% 0.9, BLK% 1.6

Dumars numbers are from 89-90 season when Dumars was all star, Detroit won 2nd championship and Dumars got selected to all defensive 1st team.

So Wiggins is statistically at least as good as Joe Dumars was defensively. If he is capable to play really great individual man to man defense, I think his sub-par 'defensive numbers' should not prevent him to be considered as one of the best perimeter defensive players.

One thing that I would like to see more is that Wiggins would guard opponents best perimeter player regardless of his position. I can understand that Sam wants him to save some energy to offensive end during the game and thus typically Prince might be guarding better of the wings. But in the end of game, when we absolutely need a defensive stop, I want to see that Andrew guards CP3, Curry, Westbrook, Harden etc.

Bruce Bowen and Shane Battier come to mind too, as neither were gamblers or great rebounders. Also, we didn't have the advanced stats back in Dumars' day to know just how good of a defender he was. Keep in mind he played on a no-holds-barred team with thugs like Laimbeer and Mahorn mauling anyone that crossed their path and elite athletes like Rodman and Salley. In other words, he had a ton of help.

Wiggins can absolutely be a part of an elite defensive unit, but he isn't the "total package" yet - he needs others that can protect the rim, rebound, and create turnovers. Rubio and KAT are probably the perfect compliments in this regard, but KAT is still a couple years away from dominance and Rubio has struggled a bit recently.

[kurrdog53 [enjin:7013678]]

Thanks Cool. I thought it was a decent read and balanced. This comment sums it up for me:

"The advanced stats aren't nearly as enthusiastic. But this may be a case where the eyes are seeing what Wiggins can become while the numbers are telling us what he is right now."

I remember writing something similar last year in the dreaded Wiggins Thread. You look at the guy and think "there's no way this guy won't be a very good player". But the actual advanced numbers have always been trailing due to the reasons stated in the article. I'm content with where Wiggins is at right now, but certainly hope he'll continue to improve. The advanced stats I follow show (PER, WS/48 and VORP) all show he has taken a step forward from last year. But those same stats show he still has a long way to go before he's Super Star material. I still think he'll get there. It looks like he might progress a little slower than Towns. But that's okay. If those two guys are hitting their prime in 2 years, I think that will be about perfect.

That same statement caught my eye too Carlos - it also totally sums up the "division" between folks that view him as a near certain superstar and folks like myself that like to project things from stats and historical comparisons and view inevitable stardom with skepticism. Really good player someday? Yes. Superstar? Not confident at all.

As for his defense, it's worth noting how some of his lack of "doing shit other than score" negatively impacts his numbers. Yes, he is a tremendous isolation defender. But what about the defensive rebounding, the steals, taking charges, getting the 50/50 balls? Those things impact a defense too.

Given his age, athleticism, and character, I think he gradually gets better and better and better. BUT....I just don't see the type of jack-of-all trades superstar wing coming to fruition at this point. And that's OK. [highlight=#dd2423]A really good player is still....a really good player. We need as many as we can get!

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I like this last quote. I think Towns will be THE stud on this team in a year or two. But if Wiggins can be a 20 pt scorer as the #2 options, that is a luxury this team hasnt had since Sam Cassell (and that lasted one year). I would like to see Wiggins average at least 4 or 5 rebounds and fill the stat line with other meaningful stats, other than points.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Wiggins and rebounding is kind of a double-edged sword. You want him to get more boards to fill the stat sheet, but at the same time he's our primary transition threat who needs to run the floor. He also needs to be one of the guys who gets back on defense when he isn't shooting. A guy like Corey Brewer was never in position to get defensive rebounds. He was at half-court by the time we secured rebounds. So yes it'd be nice if he got a few more boards per game, but his role on our team and our supporting players doesn't require him to do so. I would rather the team open things up and let Towns start slinging some full court passes to Wiggins in transition than harp too much on Wiggins' rebounding. Ideally Towns/PF/Ricky is enough to secure the rebound while Wiggins and the other wing pull some guys with them to the other end of the court in transition. I know people want him to be more like Lebron, but Lebron is back half the time to bring the ball up the court himself like a PG so it makes sense for him to be fighting for the board like Ricky does for us. The rest of the time Lebron is running up the court to get outlet passes from Love.

[Monster]

That was a good article. Thanks for posting it and great thoughts and conversation.

Adding to what Q said Wiggins projects to be a good player a guy that can probably get you 20ppg and can defend wing players in isolation? Sounds damn good to me. That's a pretty good floor to work with.

On Wiggins weaknesses...he gets pushed around on rebounds he will get stronger and has to learn to get position. Has he really had to do that much before the NBA? I doubt it. He loses the ball on moves because his handle isn't always up to what he is doing but sometimes it's because he is using a predetermined move and sometimes guys are taking that away. There is a balance especially very good players have to find between countering and just being so good with your go to moves that you can't be stopped. Wiggins is very smart you can see him calculating his moves at times. There is a very good BBIQ is that brain of his and he does seem like a guy willing to put in the work. I do see the stamina type thing someone is talking about. I don't know if it's him getting winded it just seems like he at a young age can't just go all day. Lavine on the other hand while he has t hand to play the massive minutes rarely looks tired even if he has played a big chunk of minutes. It will be something to watch.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Wiggins and rebounding is kind of a double-edged sword. You want him to get more boards to fill the stat sheet, but at the same time he's our primary transition threat who needs to run the floor. He also needs to be one of the guys who gets back on defense when he isn't shooting. A guy like Corey Brewer was never in position to get defensive rebounds. He was at half-court by the time we secured rebounds. So yes it'd be nice if he got a few more boards per game, but his role on our team and our supporting players doesn't require him to do so. I would rather the team open things up and let Towns start slinging some full court passes to Wiggins in transition than harp too much on Wiggins' rebounding. Ideally Towns/PF/Ricky is enough to secure the rebound while Wiggins and the other wing pull some guys with them to the other end of the court in transition. I know people want him to be more like Lebron, but Lebron is back half the time to bring the ball up the court himself like a PG so it makes sense for him to be fighting for the board like Ricky does for us. The rest of the time Lebron is running up the court to get outlet passes from Love.

I think that's somewhat of a false choice. Somehow other wings with his size and athleticism over the years have managed to rebound a lot better - and not just LeBron, who is an extreme example. Hell, our two point guards are better rebounders than Wiggins. And it's not because Wiggins is streaking down the floor wide open in transition. He doesn't run half as hard as Corey Brewer ever did.

The bottom line is he's a below average rebounder. It's not the end of the world, but when people talk about him becoming a superstar some day, it's a legitimate issue to point out. Most superstar wings past and present easily out-rebound Wiggins.