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[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Its not the fans, but the front office that needs to be patient. That's why Thibs was such a disaster as he was probably the least patient person in terms of his front office moves, his coaching and developing young players. I am a believer in building organically by drafting well and developing young talent and hopefully Rosas believes that too.

I agree completely on building organically. That's why I said in my post that Rosas needs to remain patient. But fans do as well.

Rosas showed patience this summer. The true test will be whether he can remain patient after a 30-win season or worse and avoid the temptation for a quick fix like the Butler deal. There are no shortcuts to success unless perhaps you're a marque franchise in a big-market warm weather city. Even then, you have to take time to amass valuable assets, including first round picks and talented young players, to position yourself for major trade that catapults your team forward. The Clippers are a good example. They were able to acquire Paul George because they amassed first round picks and a very talented young player, SGA. At the same time, they carefully managed their payroll by avoiding the temptation to do bad deals, leaving them with the cap room to sign Kawhi as a free agent and absorb the Paul George contract without giving up matching salaries.

Of course, patience isn't enough. Rosas will also need to show skill in evaluating, selecting and developing young players to make his patience pay off. So we'll have to see if Rosas has the mental toughness to remain patient when the going gets rough. And we'll see if he has the player personnel judgment to make the most of his patience.

Counter argument....We've been trying to build organically for most of the last decade-plus of failure. The one time we made the playoffs in that time span was when we traded for an established veteran (Butler) that was actually good enough to get us there. None of our other litany of lottery picks over the years could do it. So I have some degree of sympathy for the argument that sometimes you need to cash in some chips just to become competitive, especially for those fans that are paying their hard-earned money to attend home games regularly (which most of us here don't do, which in turn makes it easy for us to sit back and say "championship or tank!"). Unfortunately, Butler and Thibs turned out to be knuckleheads, so alas, we are in Rebuild Version 12.0 mode.

All of that being said, I am firmly in the "neutral" camp on Rosas. It's too early to say either way whether he will be successful or not.

[Monster]

Its not the fans, but the front office that needs to be patient. That's why Thibs was such a disaster as he was probably the least patient person in terms of his front office moves, his coaching and developing young players. I am a believer in building organically by drafting well and developing young talent and hopefully Rosas believes that too.

I agree completely on building organically. That's why I said in my post that Rosas needs to remain patient. But fans do as well.

Rosas showed patience this summer. The true test will be whether he can remain patient after a 30-win season or worse and avoid the temptation for a quick fix like the Butler deal. There are no shortcuts to success unless perhaps you're a marque franchise in a big-market warm weather city. Even then, you have to take time to amass valuable assets, including first round picks and talented young players, to position yourself for major trade that catapults your team forward. The Clippers are a good example. They were able to acquire Paul George because they amassed first round picks and a very talented young player, SGA. At the same time, they carefully managed their payroll by avoiding the temptation to do bad deals, leaving them with the cap room to sign Kawhi as a free agent and absorb the Paul George contract without giving up matching salaries.

Of course, patience isn't enough. Rosas will also need to show skill in evaluating, selecting and developing young players to make his patience pay off. So we'll have to see if Rosas has the mental toughness to remain patient when the going gets rough. And we'll see if he has the player personnel judgment to make the most of his patience.

Counter argument....We've been trying to build organically for most of the last decade-plus of failure. The one time we made the playoffs in that time span was when we traded for an established veteran (Butler) that was actually good enough to get us there. None of our other litany of lottery picks over the years could do it. So I have some degree of sympathy for the argument that sometimes you need to cash in some chips just to become competitive, especially for those fans that are paying their hard-earned money to attend home games regularly (which most of us here don't do, which in turn makes it easy for us to sit back and say "championship or tank!"). Unfortunately, Butler and Thibs turned out to be knuckleheads, so alas, we are in Rebuild Version 12.0 mode.

All of that being said, I am firmly in the "neutral" camp on Rosas. It's too early to say either way whether he will be successful or not.

If Covington is actually healthy is a guy that's sort of a "cash in your chips" type to help the team be competitive. It's not often this franchise has had an elite complimentary player like him. He isn't enough to push the team into the playoffs obviously. Having this team get to say 35 wins wouldn't be so terrible from a competitive standpoint.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Yes, 35 wins is "competitive" in the sense that we aren't a bottom feeder and won't be in tank mode. But still, a lot probably has to go right just to get to that number this year in the West. I think Target Center will have a really hard time filling seats since most people know in their bones this team isn't really going to be a threat for the playoffs.....again.

[Monster]

Yes, 35 wins is "competitive" in the sense that we aren't a bottom feeder and won't be in tank mode. But still, a lot probably has to go right just to get to that number this year in the West. I think Target Center will have a really hard time filling seats since most people know in their bones this team isn't really going to be a threat for the playoffs.....again.

Agreed although I'm a little more optimistic about getting to that 35 number than you.

FWIW It was lucky but the Pels won 33 games last year and ended up with #1 pick. The odds are more favorable to teams that...tank/play young guys or stay the course of being bad.

As for the bottom of the west Memphis looks to have a bright future and I'm not saying they will suck but they don't have anyone that projects to be as impactful this year as Covington much less Towns. Suns added some worthwhile players but again Covington is likely better than anyone other than Booker and we have Towns. I'd basically put every other team ahead of us although OKC could fall off depending on health and if they sell off even more parts.

To me some moderately good fortune with injuries and maybe one young player takes a worthwhile step forward and Wiggins returns to not sucking offensively (seems likely) this team could actually be interesting until the last month or 2. I'd guess it will will also be somewhat maddening at times (Whig will match up with the final record) but I think there will be stuff worth tuning in for. And if it all goes to crap we'll at least we will have a good draft pick... I know I know it's too much hope in this post for what we have experienced the past 15 years. Ugh

[Lipoli390]

Its not the fans, but the front office that needs to be patient. That's why Thibs was such a disaster as he was probably the least patient person in terms of his front office moves, his coaching and developing young players. I am a believer in building organically by drafting well and developing young talent and hopefully Rosas believes that too.

I agree completely on building organically. That's why I said in my post that Rosas needs to remain patient. But fans do as well.

Rosas showed patience this summer. The true test will be whether he can remain patient after a 30-win season or worse and avoid the temptation for a quick fix like the Butler deal. There are no shortcuts to success unless perhaps you're a marque franchise in a big-market warm weather city. Even then, you have to take time to amass valuable assets, including first round picks and talented young players, to position yourself for major trade that catapults your team forward. The Clippers are a good example. They were able to acquire Paul George because they amassed first round picks and a very talented young player, SGA. At the same time, they carefully managed their payroll by avoiding the temptation to do bad deals, leaving them with the cap room to sign Kawhi as a free agent and absorb the Paul George contract without giving up matching salaries.

Of course, patience isn't enough. Rosas will also need to show skill in evaluating, selecting and developing young players to make his patience pay off. So we'll have to see if Rosas has the mental toughness to remain patient when the going gets rough. And we'll see if he has the player personnel judgment to make the most of his patience.

Counter argument....We've been trying to build organically for most of the last decade-plus of failure. The one time we made the playoffs in that time span was when we traded for an established veteran (Butler) that was actually good enough to get us there. None of our other litany of lottery picks over the years could do it. So I have some degree of sympathy for the argument that sometimes you need to cash in some chips just to become competitive, especially for those fans that are paying their hard-earned money to attend home games regularly (which most of us here don't do, which in turn makes it easy for us to sit back and say "championship or tank!"). Unfortunately, Butler and Thibs turned out to be knuckleheads, so alas, we are in Rebuild Version 12.0 mode.

All of that being said, I am firmly in the "neutral" camp on Rosas. It's too early to say either way whether he will be successful or not.

I see the counter argument. But one season barely making the 8th seed doesn't make for a very compelling argument in favor of "cashing chips."

Honestly, the Wolves' decade-long failure doesn't really argue against the organic approach to building a contender. It simply highlights the long-standing incompetence of the Wolves organization through multiple regimes and the cumulative effect of a long string of horrendous player-personnel/draft decisions that include (1) drafting Flynn instead of Curry or DeRozan; (2) signing Darko to a sizable multi-year deal when no other team had any interest in him; (3) selling a first round pick that could have been used to draft Gobert, (4) passing on McCollum in favor of Bazz & Gorgui, (5) drafting Dunn over Hield or Murray, and (6) drafting Patton over John Collins - the list goes on. And those are just the decisions that I and many others on this Board thought were dim-witted at the time the were made.

Of course, hindsight shows a number of other very poor decisions, including the decisions to draft Wes Johnson and Derrick Williams who ended up complete flops. Of course, we're all aware of the terrible contract decisions with Wiggins and Gorgui. Meanwhile, I can only point to one grade A draft decision by the Wolves the past 12 years and that was drafting KAT, which isn't particularly impressive given that the Wolves had the first pick in that year's draft. Think of all the 1st and 2nd round picks the Wolves have had the past 12 years. Yet, the Wolves have hit on only one. And when the Wolves tried to cash in with the Butler deal, they got one season barely making the playoffs following by a complete implosion.

I favor the organic approach as the best method to attain sustainable success. But I acknowledge it's not the only way. Nevertheless, no matter what the method, there's no substitute for competence. I'm hoping Rosas proves competent. Better yet, I hope he attains a level of excellence, because in the end, being a top team requires a top organization. An average or slightly above average front office will ultimately produce an average to slightly above average team on the court. The Wolves haven't even been average so let's start there and see if Rosas can do even better.

[kekgeek]

Its not the fans, but the front office that needs to be patient. That's why Thibs was such a disaster as he was probably the least patient person in terms of his front office moves, his coaching and developing young players. I am a believer in building organically by drafting well and developing young talent and hopefully Rosas believes that too.

I agree completely on building organically. That's why I said in my post that Rosas needs to remain patient. But fans do as well.

Rosas showed patience this summer. The true test will be whether he can remain patient after a 30-win season or worse and avoid the temptation for a quick fix like the Butler deal. There are no shortcuts to success unless perhaps you're a marque franchise in a big-market warm weather city. Even then, you have to take time to amass valuable assets, including first round picks and talented young players, to position yourself for major trade that catapults your team forward. The Clippers are a good example. They were able to acquire Paul George because they amassed first round picks and a very talented young player, SGA. At the same time, they carefully managed their payroll by avoiding the temptation to do bad deals, leaving them with the cap room to sign Kawhi as a free agent and absorb the Paul George contract without giving up matching salaries.

Of course, patience isn't enough. Rosas will also need to show skill in evaluating, selecting and developing young players to make his patience pay off. So we'll have to see if Rosas has the mental toughness to remain patient when the going gets rough. And we'll see if he has the player personnel judgment to make the most of his patience.

Counter argument....We've been trying to build organically for most of the last decade-plus of failure. The one time we made the playoffs in that time span was when we traded for an established veteran (Butler) that was actually good enough to get us there. None of our other litany of lottery picks over the years could do it. So I have some degree of sympathy for the argument that sometimes you need to cash in some chips just to become competitive, especially for those fans that are paying their hard-earned money to attend home games regularly (which most of us here don't do, which in turn makes it easy for us to sit back and say "championship or tank!"). Unfortunately, Butler and Thibs turned out to be knuckleheads, so alas, we are in Rebuild Version 12.0 mode.

All of that being said, I am firmly in the "neutral" camp on Rosas. It's too early to say either way whether he will be successful or not.

I see the counter argument. But one season barely making the 8th seed doesn't make for a very compelling argument in favor of "cashing chips."

Honestly, the Wolves' decade-long failure doesn't really argue against the organic approach to building a contender. It simply highlights the long-standing incompetence of the Wolves organization through multiple regimes and the cumulative effect of a long string of horrendous player-personnel/draft decisions that include (1) drafting Flynn instead of Curry or DeRozan; (2) signing Darko to a sizable multi-year deal when no other team had any interest in him; (3) selling a first round pick that could have been used to draft Gobert, (4) passing on McCollum in favor of Bazz & Gorgui, (5) drafting Dunn over Hield or Murray, and (6) drafting Patton over John Collins - the list goes on. And those are just the decisions that I and many others on this Board thought were dim-witted at the time the were made.

Of course, hindsight shows a number of other very poor decisions, including the decisions to draft Wes Johnson and Derrick Williams who ended up complete flops. Of course, we're all aware of the terrible contract decisions with Wiggins and Gorgui. Meanwhile, I can only point to one grade A draft decision by the Wolves the past 12 years and that was drafting KAT, which isn't particularly impressive given that the Wolves had the first pick in that year's draft. Think of all the 1st and 2nd round picks the Wolves have had the past 12 years. Yet, the Wolves have hit on only one. And when the Wolves tried to cash in with the Butler deal, they got one season barely making the playoffs following by a complete implosion.

I favor the organic approach as the best method to attain sustainable success. But I acknowledge it's not the only way. Nevertheless, no matter what the method, there's no substitute for competence. I'm hoping Rosas proves competent. Better yet, I hope he attains a level of excellence, because in the end, being a top team requires a top organization. An average or slightly above average front office will ultimately produce an average to slightly above average team on the court. The Wolves haven't even been average so let's start there and see if Rosas can do even better.

I am with you that I hope Rosas excels and I really don't care how he does it as long as he excels. It is so hard though. I think when you talk about the wolves terrible draft history it should show how much a crap shoot the draft is. Also last years Champs drafted one guy in their rotation in Siakam and one undrafted guy in FVF. While there is some skill in that I think that is a ton luck in that being a 2nd round pick and undrafted also every other player was traded for.

This upcoming favorite the Clippers weren't built organically either. Leonard and George were both traded for. Same with Harrell, Bev, Williams.

I just think it is really hard to compete building straight through the draft nowadays. You have to be very special and lucky to build a team like the Warriors via through the draft.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Exactly Kek...had for example Wiggins stepped up his game and played as a legit all-star or borderline all-star two seasons ago and Butler blended well with he and KAT, who knows where we'd be right now? That would have been a mixture of organic drafting/development and a big trade for a vet and a couple of solid vet free agent signings. But the chemistry didn't work and we're still waiting on Wiggins.

[kekgeek]

Exactly Kek...had for example Wiggins stepped up his game and played as a legit all-star or borderline all-star two seasons ago and Butler blended well with he and KAT, who knows where we'd be right now? That would have been a mixture of organic drafting/development and a big trade for a vet and a couple of solid vet free agent signings. But the chemistry didn't work and we're still waiting on Wiggins.

That is why I will always defend the trade for Butler, in hindsight it didn't work out but if I knew at worst case scenario I was getting Cov and Saric I would do the Butler trade 100 out of 100 times. If Butler wasnt an asshole, the Wolves right now with Butler instead of Saric would be in the conversation of contending to come out of the west. Also if Thib selected Collins over Patton we wouldn't be in as bad of a spot. I am in the believe you have to gamble on trading young pieces for proven star level players when the young pieces haven't shown to be star level players.

[Lipoli390]

Exactly Kek...had for example Wiggins stepped up his game and played as a legit all-star or borderline all-star two seasons ago and Butler blended well with he and KAT, who knows where we'd be right now? That would have been a mixture of organic drafting/development and a big trade for a vet and a couple of solid vet free agent signings. But the chemistry didn't work and we're still waiting on Wiggins.

That is why I will always defend the trade for Butler, in hindsight it didn't work out but if I knew at worst case scenario I was getting Cov and Saric I would do the Butler trade 100 out of 100 times. If Butler wasnt an asshole, the Wolves right now with Butler instead of Saric would be in the conversation of contending to come out of the west. Also if Thib selected Collins over Patton we wouldn't be in as bad of a spot. I am in the believe you have to gamble on trading young pieces for proven star level players when the young pieces haven't shown to be star level players.

But the reality is that Butler was an asshole with a history of missing lots of games. His missed games were the reason the Wolves ended up 8th instead of 5th or 6th. His being an asshole was the reason the team didn't click more and why the whole thing imploded after that one season. It's already problematic to build expect good chemistry adding a veteran who's 6 years older than the other players expected to be part of the core three. It's beyond problematic when the veteran added has a track record of being an asshole and failing to mesh with younger players. So of course the chemistry didn't work. A top organization would know that and not make that deal. Or having made that deal, a top organization would have drafted Collins over Patton and the next year would have traded Butler for more value on draft night before the world knew he wanted out.

The draft isn't entirely a crap shoot. It involves a good deal of analysis and judgment. The top organizations do much better with personnel decisions, contract management and player development than the lesser organizations over time. The Spurs, Jazz, Warriors are several recent examples. They do better with the draft, with trades, with free agent signings and with contract decisions/cap management. Thibodeau was a terrible PBO who was preceded by a succession of comparably poor PBOs. That's why the Wolves have been the team they've been these past 12 years. Every team has its share of bad luck and makes mistakes. It's the cumulative impact of many decisions over time that defines a franchise. Some are much better run and, consequently, make far better decisions cumulatively over time than others and that's the difference.