thedoper wrote:Basketball GMs have it rough. It's always a mix of deals and scouting talent, many GMs are stronger in one area than another. Few are excellent in both. Jerry West and Ainge stick out in my mind in this area of GM's that evaluate talent at a top notch level and make good deals.
Back to Okogie I think Thibs and his team did a good job with that pick. I am also confident in Thibs' ability to evaluate talent. I'm not so sure he or Layden have the deal making down.
And even angie has struggled at drafting. Sullinger, fab melo, james young, RJ Hunter even Marcus smart for how high he was drafted and what they needed him to become. Brad Stevens could have saved his job. And angie made the most out of it.
thedoper wrote:Basketball GMs have it rough. It's always a mix of deals and scouting talent, many GMs are stronger in one area than another. Few are excellent in both. Jerry West and Ainge stick out in my mind in this area of GM's that evaluate talent at a top notch level and make good deals.
Back to Okogie I think Thibs and his team did a good job with that pick. I am also confident in Thibs' ability to evaluate talent. I'm not so sure he or Layden have the deal making down.
And even angie has struggled at drafting. Sullinger, fab melo, james young, RJ Hunter even Marcus smart for how high he was drafted and what they needed him to become. Brad Stevens could have saved his job. And angie made the most out of it.
Yeah there's learning in all of it. Thibs knows and loves the game, I think there's merit in that in spite of all his deficiencies. From the beginning I've been saying that I hope Thibs moved to full time GM and gave the coaching reigns to Saunders if or when he was ready. I honestly think Thibs crazed obsessiveness would really excel as the GM more than a coach in this era.
SameOldNudityDrew wrote:Good posts here. Lip thanks for the eyewitness details from the games here and in the game report. That's the kind of stuff we don't see online so it's really helpful.
Coming back to Okogie--I freakin' love that guy! He works SO HARD every second he is on the court, especially defensively. It reminds me of my favorite wolf of all time, Corey Brewer.
I'm not sure how much faith I have that his shot will come along, but his intensity on the court especially when it comes to defense and hustle plays is the sort of thing that can be infectious. I can see Okogie helping make other guys better just by setting an example and inspiring intensity among his teammates.
Butler also has that kind of defensive intensity, but obviously his personality is also clashing with his teammates right now. I doubt Okogie will ever make the kind of tangible impact that Butler has in terms of scoring, etc., but I am really glad we have Okogie on the team.
Also, notice how replacing Wiggins with Okogie in the lineup didn't really hurt us in that last game? It's only one game, but I still think back to the days of Trenton Hassell playing a key role for us as a defensive stopper who doesn't need a lot of shots. Maybe Okogie could be that guy someday.
Okogie shot the 3 at a 38% clip in college and makes a high percentage of his free throws. For most NBA franchises, a prospect like that would eventually hit the NBA 3 with regularity. Not sure about us though, but it's something we can hang onto for now....
Yeah, it doesn't LOOK like a smooth shot to me, but the numbers point in the right direction. I love the guy either way, but if he can become a consistent 40% plus catch and shoot 3 point shooter, I think he could be a very good role-playing starter for sure.
Speaking of that Chris Paul deal that Cam brought up David Stern addressed that and more here with some interesting stuff. I haven't read this whole thing yet some a couple excerpts on twitter.
thedoper wrote:Basketball GMs have it rough. It's always a mix of deals and scouting talent, many GMs are stronger in one area than another. Few are excellent in both. Jerry West and Ainge stick out in my mind in this area of GM's that evaluate talent at a top notch level and make good deals.
Back to Okogie I think Thibs and his team did a good job with that pick. I am also confident in Thibs' ability to evaluate talent. I'm not so sure he or Layden have the deal making down.
And even angie has struggled at drafting. Sullinger, fab melo, james young, RJ Hunter even Marcus smart for how high he was drafted and what they needed him to become. Brad Stevens could have saved his job. And angie made the most out of it.
Yeah there's learning in all of it. Thibs knows and loves the game, I think there's merit in that in spite of all his deficiencies. From the beginning I've been saying that I hope Thibs moved to full time GM and gave the coaching reigns to Saunders if or when he was ready. I honestly think Thibs crazed obsessiveness would really excel as the GM more than a coach in this era.
My favorite Ainge Flub was when he traded for Telfair. Still the guy has done a lot and if you want to say Stevens made him look good...Ainge did hire him so yes. Lol
Even the best GMs make mistakes. But what distinguishes them as top GMs are the multiple good, occasionally exceptional moves they make -- draft picks, free agent signings and trades.
Danny Ainge traded down last year to take probably the best player in last year's draft, Tatum, getting a 1st round likely lottery pick in return. He drafted Jaylen Brown higher than most GMs would have drafted him and Brown has been terrific. He drafted Marcus Smart. He signed Horford. He signed Hayward as a FA. He gave up very little in trading for Kyrie Irving. He passed on trading for Butler. Oh, and he hired Brad Stevens. That's not luck.
The Jazz traded up to draft Donovan Mitchell. They drafted Gobert at #27. They acquired Joe Ingles and then re-signed him. They don't have any bloated bad contracts on their books. Oh, and they hired Quin Snyder. I won't bother to repeat the long list of great moves by the Spurs organization over the years.
So far, Thibodeau has made perhaps one really good move - drafting Okogie. His signature acquisition, Butler, is flaming out after only one season. So no, Thibodeau has don't nothing to suggest he's a good GM. He might be marginally better in that role than as head coach, but that's not saying much.
I'm not going to defend Thibs in an effort to make it sound like he should retain his position in the organization. I'm at the point where fresh blood is probably needed and new ideas/vision would probably be good for this franchise's outlook considering where they are currently.
HOWEVER, Thibs has made several moves that have been quality/good/great in his time being here.
Before getting to the good deals that come to mind, I want everyone to realize that comparing Thibs' body of work in the front office -- which is pretty much just two years -- to someone who has been in their positions as long as Danny Ainge, Dennis Lindsey, or R.C. Buford is obviously not going to be in Thibs' favor. They've had more time to strike gold, more time to learn from mistakes, more time to implement their staff and so on. They have the benefit of time on their side. So, for me, listing out the terrific moves those guys have made -- while ignoring their mistakes -- does little for me in the topic that is Thibs the POBO.
1. Traded Kris Dunn, Zach LaVine, and Lauri Markkanen to the Chicago Bulls for Jimmy Butler and Justin Patton.
Say what you want about the individuals involved in the trade, but if we focus on value -- as we should -- this deal grades out as a win for Thibs. He acquired a top-15 [at worst] player in the entire league for unproven/disappointing players and a potential star who was coming off of an ACL injury. I'm part of the group who would have preferred to move Andrew Wiggins instead, but it's hard to argue with what we got back.
2. Traded Ricky Rubio to the Utah Jazz for a 2018 first-round pick (Josh Okogie was later selected).
Not only is a first-round pick pretty damn good value in return for a PG in the 10-15 range of the league, but Thibs also didn't have to take back any salary, which created a significant amount of cap space to play with. Not to mention this team surrendered their own first-round pick because of Flip Saunders complete blunder in the Adreian Payne trade. Imagine having no draft selection this past summer in a pretty deep draft. This was a slam dunk for Thibs and I can't imagine arguing against it.
3. Thibs signed former All-Star Jeff Teague and the always-solid Taj Gibson to multi-year contracts -- opting to pay them more annually rather than adding additional years on the payroll. I know there are posters here which will argue that Teague at $19M is an overpay. They'll also argue that Gibson at $14M was too high as well. I'd lean that way myself except when you realize two things. Firstly, it's highly likely that this 2018-19 season is their last year in Minnesota and their combined $33M will come off the books. Yes, I'm assuming Teague does not pick up his option and instead looks to secure his financial future with perhaps his last significant contract. Secondly, these guys were 2/5 of the second-best five man unit in basketball last year. That's not insignificant. The only five man group that performed better, statistically, was Philly's bunch [Simmons, Redick, Covington, Saric, and Embiid]. These are arguably two of the best free agent signings in Wolves history, though I admit it's slim pickings.
Has there been numerous mistakes along the way with Thibs? Yeah, absolutely, I think that's fair. But he's made some pretty significant moves that were/are pretty damn good too. As a POBO, he's done more good than bad in Minnesota.
My real disappointment with Thibs is on the coaching side, but that's an entirely different discussion.
Camden0916 wrote:I'm not going to defend Thibs in an effort to make it sound like he should retain his position in the organization. I'm at the point where fresh blood is probably needed and new ideas/vision would probably be good for this franchise's outlook considering where they are currently.
HOWEVER, Thibs has made several moves that have been quality/good/great in his time being here.
Before getting to the good deals that come to mind, I want everyone to realize that comparing Thibs' body of work in the front office -- which is pretty much just two years -- to someone who has been in their positions as long as Danny Ainge, Dennis Lindsey, or R.C. Buford is obviously not going to be in Thibs' favor. They've had more time to strike gold, more time to learn from mistakes, more time to implement their staff and so on. They have the benefit of time on their side. So, for me, listing out the terrific moves those guys have made -- while ignoring their mistakes -- does little for me in the topic that is Thibs the POBO.
1. Traded Kris Dunn, Zach LaVine, and Lauri Markkanen to the Chicago Bulls for Jimmy Butler and Justin Patton.
Say what you want about the individuals involved in the trade, but if we focus on value -- as we should -- this deal grades out as a win for Thibs. He acquired a top-15 [at worst] player in the entire league for unproven/disappointing players and a potential star who was coming off of an ACL injury. I'm part of the group who would have preferred to move Andrew Wiggins instead, but it's hard to argue with what we got back.
2. Traded Ricky Rubio to the Utah Jazz for a 2018 first-round pick (Josh Okogie was later selected).
Not only is a first-round pick pretty damn good value in return for a PG in the 10-15 range of the league, but Thibs also didn't have to take back any salary, which created a significant amount of cap space to play with. Not to mention this team surrendered their own first-round pick because of Flip Saunders complete blunder in the Adreian Payne trade. Imagine having no draft selection this past summer in a pretty deep draft. This was a slam dunk for Thibs and I can't imagine arguing against it.
3. Thibs signed former All-Star Jeff Teague and the always-solid Taj Gibson to multi-year contracts -- opting to pay them more annually rather than adding additional years on the payroll. I know there are posters here which will argue that Teague at $19M is an overpay. They'll also argue that Gibson at $14M was too high as well. I'd lean that way myself except when you realize two things. Firstly, it's highly likely that this 2018-19 season is their last year in Minnesota and their combined $33M will come off the books. Yes, I'm assuming Teague does not pick up his option and instead looks to secure his financial future with perhaps his last significant contract. Secondly, these guys were 2/5 of the second-best five man unit in basketball last year. That's not insignificant. The only five man group that performed better, statistically, was Philly's bunch [Simmons, Redick, Covington, Saric, and Embiid]. These are arguably two of the best free agent signings in Wolves history, though I admit it's slim pickings.
Has there been numerous mistakes along the way with Thibs? Yeah, absolutely, I think that's fair. But he's made some pretty significant moves that were/are pretty damn good too. As a POBO, he's done more good than bad in Minnesota.
My real disappointment with Thibs is on the coaching side, but that's an entirely different discussion.
This is where I'm at too and why I was making the point that if Thibs was GM alone he'd eventually be quite good at it because of his talent evaluation.
The Butler trade was just a two year rental though to me from day 1. I just didn't see them keeping him with Wiggins and KAT coming in for max contracts. So for me, if the trade doesn't help you to contending for/winning a Championship eventually, it's really a failure.
The Wolves are not going to beat Golden State this year, sorry to burst your bubbles. Jimmy will be gone after the season probably for nothing. Yeppee, made the 8th seed last year, great trade! lol
WolvesFan21 wrote:The Butler trade was just a two year rental though to me from day 1. I just didn't see them keeping him with Wiggins and KAT coming in for max contracts. So for me, if the trade doesn't help you to contending for/winning a Championship eventually, it's really a failure.
The Wolves are not going to beat Golden State this year, sorry to burst your bubbles. Jimmy will be gone after the season probably for nothing. Yeppee, made the 8th seed last year, great trade! lol
The alternative is a perpetual lottery team that is probably the worst defensive team in the NBA during the biggest scoring boom in NBA history. How is that better?
