What about Wiggins?

[thedoper]

Wiggins has averaged only 2.1 turnovers a game in his career and he's had the ball in his hands for a lot of it. The narrative that if he is dribbling it's a turnover is just getting old. When he had a usage of 29 two years ago he still only averaged 2.3 turnovers a game with a sub 10% turnover rate. Unless you're throwing Kawhi at him it's overblown how much he turns the ball over. Towns is at 2.5 career turnovers a game with a career high 3.1 last year and a 13.7 turnover rate for comparison with his 28.9 usage rate. Everything just gets blown to the 10th degree of bad when talking about Wiggins.

Yes it's true, his handle looks ugly but he manages to take care of the ball which is all that really matters. With how much he has the ball in his hands it would be nice if he could get a few more assists though. I think people see the dynamic stars today and hope that Wiggins could become something he never had the skills to be (James Harden).

[Coolbreeze44]

Some of Wig's handle issues get credited as missed shots instead of turnovers when he gets in the lane. But yes, things get blown out of proportion when talking about Wig. Fanboys are going to remember he was a #1 overall pick and the fact he got paid, and that is going to color the narrative no matter what. He's never going to live up to his draft position or contract. But he isn't responsible for where he was drafted, nor the contract he got. The best coaches put their players in the best possible position to succeed, and that's what Ryan needs to do with Wig and every player on the team. I still think Wig can become a net positive, but it's going to take a collective effort from the player and coaching staff to make it happen. We should all hope it does.

I agree, Cool. Wiggins didn't force Cleveland to take him #1 or force the Wolves to trade for him. In fact, trading for Wiggins was the right thing for Flip to do at the time. Wiggins didn't force Thibodeau to give him a max contract. And Wiggins isn't the guy who's been drawing up the plays that consistently amplify his weaknesses while failing to optimize his strengths.

You've defended Wiggins over the years, but you've been honest about his weaknesses as well. While some others might be in denial about his poor ballhandling, you've recognized the obvious in that regard. Has the criticism of Wiggins been harsh at times? Yes, myself included, but it's an understandable reaction of a justifiably frustrated fan base that sees Andrew's immense talent, but then watches him fail to progress beyond his rookie-of-the-year season. That's added to the frustration of watching one bad front office decision after another. Again, as you've said repeatedly, our head coaches haven't made the best use of Wiggins. And that's why, like you, I still have hope that Andrew can become a net positive.

As fans, we really have to expect more from our team's front office and coaches. Our front office needs to do a much better job than previous regimes of evaluating and acquiring talent. But our coaching staff also needs to do a much better job of developing and using the talent we have. Let's hope that the Rosas regime and the coaching staff Rosas has assembled around Ryan Saunders finally deliver on those things.

Thanks Lip for your recognition of my honesty. As always, you're a breath of fresh air in your contributions to the board.

For me its helped to accept Wig's shortcomings. Yes, he's not going to be the do-it-all player we really needed him to be. But given that, it will be interesting to see where he goes from here.

[worldK]

Some of Wig's handle issues get credited as missed shots instead of turnovers when he gets in the lane. But yes, things get blown out of proportion when talking about Wig. Fanboys are going to remember he was a #1 overall pick and the fact he got paid, and that is going to color the narrative no matter what. He's never going to live up to his draft position or contract. But he isn't responsible for where he was drafted, nor the contract he got. The best coaches put their players in the best possible position to succeed, and that's what Ryan needs to do with Wig and every player on the team. I still think Wig can become a net positive, but it's going to take a collective effort from the player and coaching staff to make it happen. We should all hope it does.

Excellent post cool. Fair take coming from a wig fan.

[bleedspeed]

What about dre?

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

I can't in good faith continue this good feelings/ let's hope for better/it's not his fault conversation regarding Wiggins. He is an objectively worse basketball player today than when he was a rookie five years ago (!), and that in itself is worth bringing the hammer down on him. You literally cannot point to a single aspect of the game of basketball and say that he has significantly improved there. For whatever minuscule improvement he's shown defensively from the eye test, it pales in comparison to the blatant steps back he's taken across the board.

Bill Self, Flip Saunders, Sam Mitchell, Tom Thibodeau, Ryan Saunders, etc. -- all of these guys have one thing in common and it's that none of them were able to turn Wiggins into a positive impact player at whatever stage of his basketball career. Is that an indictment on them as coaches or maybe, just maybe, the player in question deserves the large majority of the blame for his own failure to develop his game. Stop giving him excuses. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.

Even if Wiggins was being misused, his lack of production falls squarely on his shoulders. Legitimately good basketball players make their impact felt regardless of the game plan. Minnesota fans don't need to look too far for an example of this as Kevin Love was about as mismanaged as it gets and all he did was produce when he was on the floor. If you want to debate that Wiggins' role held him back from becoming a star player, you could maybe have an argument. But there is no reason why Wiggins shouldn't have been able to produce regardless of the coach's strategy, whether that's as a defensive stopper or a selective secondary scorer.

How can Jaylen Brown be a decent player pigeonholed into a role and Andrew Wiggins cannot? How can Josh Richardson find a way to impact games and Andrew Wiggins cannot? Taurean Prince? Malik Beasley? How is it possible that Wiggins can be such a non-factor on the court despite having more natural talent than any of these guys? If you say coaching, you're delusional. Period. It's on the player. And quite frankly, I'm sick of him and the excuses.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Well, we're stuck with him for now, so nothing wrong with hoping for the best when it comes to Wiggins. But yeah, the idea that he hasn't been utilized correctly is laughable. In his 5 years he's been utilized as everything from a #1 featured option to more of a 3rd wheel/support player. In none of those roles has he truly blossomed or flourished.

The one thing we haven't tried is playing him a lot fewer minutes! But our wing depth has been so shitty over the years, I'm not sure who replaces his minutes that is all that much better. We're stuck!

[Monster]

I can't in good faith continue this good feelings/ let's hope for better/it's not his fault conversation regarding Wiggins. He is an objectively worse basketball player today than when he was a rookie five years ago (!), and that in itself is worth bringing the hammer down on him. You literally cannot point to a single aspect of the game of basketball and say that he has significantly improved there. For whatever minuscule improvement he's shown defensively from the eye test, it pales in comparison to the blatant steps back he's taken across the board.

Bill Self, Flip Saunders, Sam Mitchell, Tom Thibodeau, Ryan Saunders, etc. -- all of these guys have one thing in common and it's that none of them were able to turn Wiggins into a positive impact player at whatever stage of his basketball career. Is that an indictment on them as coaches or maybe, just maybe, the player in question deserves the large majority of the blame for his own failure to develop his game. Stop giving him excuses. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.

Even if Wiggins was being misused, his lack of production falls squarely on his shoulders. Legitimately good basketball players make their impact felt regardless of the game plan. Minnesota fans don't need to look too far for an example of this as Kevin Love was about as mismanaged as it gets and all he did was produce when he was on the floor. If you want to debate that Wiggins' role held him back from becoming a star player, you could maybe have an argument. But there is no reason why Wiggins shouldn't have been able to produce regardless of the coach's strategy, whether that's as a defensive stopper or a selective secondary scorer.

How can Jaylen Brown be a decent player pigeonholed into a role and Andrew Wiggins cannot? How can Josh Richardson find a way to impact games and Andrew Wiggins cannot? Taurean Prince? Malik Beasley? How is it possible that Wiggins can be such a non-factor on the court despite having more natural talent than any of these guys? If you say coaching, you're delusional. Period. It's on the player. And quite frankly, I'm sick of him and the excuses.

Cam I don't disagree with any of your post. I think the blame is on Wiggins the plate rmore than the organization. To clarify for me the utilization of Wiggins isn't an excuse for him but I think better utilization of what he can do could get more out of him than we have seen the last couple years offensively...not making him a better player. If Wiggins goes back to 2016-2017 Wiggins numbers (probably won't score quite that much because I don't think he plays that many minutes) some team will want that type of guy and we can move on from him...MAYBE even get something out of him other than the privilege of being rid of him. I'm not arguing for Wiggins to be the center of the offense or everything catered to him but having some possessions throughout the game where he is put in position to succeed. I'm not suggesting the guy is some star in waiting but getting the most out of a guy that does have SOME talent.

If Wiggins doesn't really buy in on what the wolves want to do on both sides of the ball (possible maybe even likely) screw him play other guys. I have some level of hope he buys in some and if he does give him a little leeway. If other guys like Culver are just better fine play them over him. I'm adjusting my expectations for him like Cool has said. Like Kahn's said I don't see the idea that just playing him off the ball like he is basically Jake Layman is gonna work...guess what we saw that didn't really work under Thibs either.

Ultimately more accurately what some of us that have some sort of hope for Wiggins is probably more hope for this organization (dangerous I know) that's been assembled than actual hope about Wiggins. I also think that if Wiggins doesn't take some sort of step this organization will absolutely move on. We saw Rosas and company move on from plenty of guys this offseason. Wiggins will be harder to move on from but if that's what is needed I think they will find a way. Good organizations the the most out of players...but not all players. I'm hoping this organization can get something out of Wiggins...or at least he reverts back to being just kinda inefficient on offense not horrific. :)

[AbeVigodaLive]

Should Wiggin's sudden reluctance/inability to get to the line... make his shots once there... or dunk the basketball... his fault? Coaches' faults? Or combination?

[thedoper]

I think the solution to the Wiggins problem has always been simpler than it's made out to be here. To me it's not blind optimism to think that more shots can go in. Improved shooting has happened for a lot of players. I think the biggest letdown with Wiggins was that it looked like he had the tools to be a good shooter and has been far from that. If more shots go in he's a valuable asset. Not too complicated. Some of that is coaching better shot selection, but the majority of that is Wiggins ability to hit them.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I think the solution to the Wiggins problem has always been simpler than it's made out to be here. To me it's not blind optimism to think that more shots can go in. Improved shooting has happened for a lot of players. I think the biggest letdown with Wiggins was that it looked like he had the tools to be a good shooter and has been far from that. If more shots go in he's a valuable asset. Not too complicated. Some of that is coaching better shot selection, but the majority of that is Wiggins ability to hit them.

He actually has multiple problems, with shooting being just one of them. Yes, if suddenly he became a high-volume, high percentage 3-point shooter, his value would go up immensely.

But let's say his shooting always stayed pretty mediocre. If he instead, for example, played his ass off and focused on defense/hustle stuff, he has all the physical tools in the world to be a monster defensively. Hustle and defense are about as much in a player's control as anything. So that one is simple too!

Or how about ball handling? If he really worked and improved on his ball handling, he'd be a much bigger threat going to the basket where he has proven to be a good finisher and foul drawer. He'd get a lot more highly efficient layups, dunks and free throws or opening up the floor for open shots from team mates. So that one is kind of simple.

Or how about shot selection? If he stopped taking step back long-2's and long pull ups off the dribble, he'd be a much more efficient scorer. That's within his control, so that one is simple too.

So yes, you can take any number of single problems and make the claim that if he only improved in that one simple area, he'd be a lot more effective. The most shocking thing about Wiggins is he's really no better in any of this than he was as a 1st or 2nd year player - and perhaps worse in some regards.