Minnesota Sports Forum

Kahns, tell me what other offer do we have that is better than one that includes Richardson? Tobias is reportedly off the table and frankly, he's a flight risk on an expiring deal. Otto, I'd love, but I have no evidence he's being offered for Butler. Milwaukee most assuredly isn't trading Middleton and they have said so. I can't even fathom an offer that Houston, Clippers or Nets would make that would surpass the value we get in Richardson and a pick or other value. Philly is the only other team that might be able to top a Richardson centered deal, but there just isn't much steam there.

KG4Ever wrote:Kahns, tell me what other offer do we have that is better than one that includes Richardson? Tobias is reportedly off the table and frankly, he's a flight risk on an expiring deal. Otto, I'd love, but I have no evidence he's being offered for Butler. Milwaukee most assuredly isn't trading Middleton and they have said so. I can't even fathom an offer that Houston, Clippers or Nets would make that would surpass the value we get in Richardson and a pick or other value. Philly is the only other team that might be able to top a Richardson centered deal, but there just isn't much steam there.

I don't know what deals are on the table. I just know that any deal involving Jimmy means that's your team moving forward because of salary matching. So we get Richardson and Whiteside and we will be one of the 8 worst teams in the league given that this team is designed around a player not on the team anymore. Thibs is fired and the next GM and coach have no cap space, bad immovable deals in Whiteside and G and 1, maybe 2 draft picks as the only means to improve the team because we will be pushing the luxury tax if not going over it.

I would honestly rather have cap space than that nightmare scenario. Richardson's bargain is over before that team can even get the atrocities off the books and improve to playoff contention. That deal just sounds like minimum 2 throw away seasons before maybe we can be relevant again.

Meanwhile if the Wizards come out of the gates with more chemistry issues that gets Beal or Porter on the table. Miami comes out slow and all of a sudden they are desperate. Someone steps up from other teams to become a worthwhile piece in the trade. A lot of scenarios could open or close trade doors for us. Richardson and Whiteside will be on the table in February because that's highway robbery for Miami to get the best player in the deal and shed salary so I'm not in a rush to execute that trade right now.

It's worth mentioning that if you get Whiteside back you also move Dieng as well which means you get out of salary 2020-2021 which isn't a huge thing but it does matter. If you are worried about salary in 2019 again Whiteside has a 27 million dollar player option. It's unlikely he turns that down but maybe some team wants whiteside for a 1year deal or maybe he can be used in terms of expiring salary in a deal to acquire a player. Worst case scenario he probably takes at least a vet min buyout deal and they can waive and stretch him which means about 8 million per for the next 3 years. It's a positive as far as salary but not a huge one.

monsterpile wrote:It's worth mentioning that if you get Whiteside back you also move Dieng as well which means you get out of salary 2020-2021 which isn't a huge thing but it does matter. If you are worried about salary in 2019 again Whiteside has a 27 million dollar player option. It's unlikely he turns that down but maybe some team wants whiteside for a 1year deal or maybe he can be used in terms of expiring salary in a deal to acquire a player. Worst case scenario he probably takes at least a vet min buyout deal and they can waive and stretch him which means about 8 million per for the next 3 years. It's a positive as far as salary but not a huge one.

Nobody takes Whiteside for that without us giving away even more value with him. Stretching him doesn't net cap space because we are pushing the luxury tax. You can only stretch 1 year beyond the life of the deal so it would save 13.5 million in unusable space anyway. At best that opens up the non-tax MLE which still isn't a big needle moving move. A top 3 of Towns/Richardson/Wiggins is nowhere near a contending top 3. Why go all in on that mediocrity?

khans2k5 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:It's worth mentioning that if you get Whiteside back you also move Dieng as well which means you get out of salary 2020-2021 which isn't a huge thing but it does matter. If you are worried about salary in 2019 again Whiteside has a 27 million dollar player option. It's unlikely he turns that down but maybe some team wants whiteside for a 1year deal or maybe he can be used in terms of expiring salary in a deal to acquire a player. Worst case scenario he probably takes at least a vet min buyout deal and they can waive and stretch him which means about 8 million per for the next 3 years. It's a positive as far as salary but not a huge one.

Nobody takes Whiteside for that without us giving away even more value with him. Stretching him doesn't net cap space because we are pushing the luxury tax. You can only stretch 1 year beyond the life of the deal so it would save 13.5 million in unusable space anyway. At best that opens up the non-tax MLE which still isn't a big needle moving move. A top 3 of Towns/Richardson/Wiggins is nowhere near a contending top 3. Why go all in on that mediocrity?

Whiteside's money would be over 3 years not 2. It's twice the length of contract plus another year. I included a link. For an example you can look up Aldrich's stretched money and see its over 3 years.

*http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q64

Okay so if the reports are true that a) the Heat have softened on including Richardson in a deal (one report said he for sure was in 1 deal) and b) they thought they had the a structure of a deal agreed to Sunday morning, then that tells me Richardson was very likely involved in that agreed to framework and that the Wolves pushed harder for more last minute.

Now we have reports that earlier today Miami came back and made their last, best offer it has me at least a little hopefully that something decent could get done with the Heat or even someone else stepping in last minute and beating their offer.

I don't know a lot about these guys, but from what I'm hearing I would at least be excited to see what the team does after a deal like one of these with the Heat:

1) Butler for Richardson, Bam, filler & no pick
2) Butler & Gorgui for Richardson, Bam & Johnson

I also wonder if the NBA allows teams to have stipulations on picks outside of lotto protection, like if they could have a deal where they get a Heat 2nd rounder that turns into a heat 1st rounder if Butler resigns long term there. I'm not sure I've seen a stipulation like that in the NBA however.

monsterpile wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:It's worth mentioning that if you get Whiteside back you also move Dieng as well which means you get out of salary 2020-2021 which isn't a huge thing but it does matter. If you are worried about salary in 2019 again Whiteside has a 27 million dollar player option. It's unlikely he turns that down but maybe some team wants whiteside for a 1year deal or maybe he can be used in terms of expiring salary in a deal to acquire a player. Worst case scenario he probably takes at least a vet min buyout deal and they can waive and stretch him which means about 8 million per for the next 3 years. It's a positive as far as salary but not a huge one.

Nobody takes Whiteside for that without us giving away even more value with him. Stretching him doesn't net cap space because we are pushing the luxury tax. You can only stretch 1 year beyond the life of the deal so it would save 13.5 million in unusable space anyway. At best that opens up the non-tax MLE which still isn't a big needle moving move. A top 3 of Towns/Richardson/Wiggins is nowhere near a contending top 3. Why go all in on that mediocrity?

Whiteside's money would be over 3 years not 2. It's twice the length of contract plus another year. I included a link. For an example you can look up Aldrich's stretched money and see its over 3 years.

*http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q64

If 18 million gives us significant cap space, great. If not there is little reason to have 18 million in dead money over 2 years after he leaves. The difference right now between luxury tax and the soft cap is 22 million so you can stretch him with Taj expiring to open 10 million with Tyus needing to be paid and sitting on a cap hold with Teague so probably 0 cap space unless we renounce everyone. So basically you get exceptions and add dead money for 2 years while he goes and plays for someone else.

So is Josh Richardson and the MLE pushing this team to the next level long-term? Because that's all you can do outside of draft. That team is lucky if they make the playoffs let alone be a good team which is why I don't get the desperation to make that trade. I just need more or else I let Jimmy walk and go for a proper rebuild and not the .60 cents on the dollar one.

khans2k5 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:It's worth mentioning that if you get Whiteside back you also move Dieng as well which means you get out of salary 2020-2021 which isn't a huge thing but it does matter. If you are worried about salary in 2019 again Whiteside has a 27 million dollar player option. It's unlikely he turns that down but maybe some team wants whiteside for a 1year deal or maybe he can be used in terms of expiring salary in a deal to acquire a player. Worst case scenario he probably takes at least a vet min buyout deal and they can waive and stretch him which means about 8 million per for the next 3 years. It's a positive as far as salary but not a huge one.

Nobody takes Whiteside for that without us giving away even more value with him. Stretching him doesn't net cap space because we are pushing the luxury tax. You can only stretch 1 year beyond the life of the deal so it would save 13.5 million in unusable space anyway. At best that opens up the non-tax MLE which still isn't a big needle moving move. A top 3 of Towns/Richardson/Wiggins is nowhere near a contending top 3. Why go all in on that mediocrity?

Whiteside's money would be over 3 years not 2. It's twice the length of contract plus another year. I included a link. For an example you can look up Aldrich's stretched money and see its over 3 years.

*http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q64

If 18 million gives us significant cap space, great. If not there is little reason to have 18 million in dead money over 2 years after he leaves. The difference right now between luxury tax and the soft cap is 22 million so you can stretch him with Taj expiring to open 10 million with Tyus needing to be paid and sitting on a cap hold with Teague so probably 0 cap space unless we renounce everyone. So basically you get exceptions and add dead money for 2 years while he goes and plays for someone else.

So is Josh Richardson and the MLE pushing this team to the next level long-term? Because that's all you can do outside of draft. That team is lucky if they make the playoffs let alone be a good team which is why I don't get the desperation to make that trade. I just need more or else I let Jimmy walk and go for a proper rebuild and not the .60 cents on the dollar one.

I should have said lux tax space not cap space. If they can use the mid level that does matter to me. I don't love using the stretch provision but it's an option. I think it's gonna be hard to actually have useable cap room in 2019.

Personally I think the Wolves should be getting Richardson a first and something else. I think we can agree that taking back salary in a lot of these possible deals should be considered a reason why we should get More in a deal. Idk when the Wolves will have cap space to really rebuild.

Frankly, you get what you can and move on. Enough talk of what Butler should be worth. He's worth whatever the best deal they can get for him and no more. Unless they can get a handshake deal on a better December deal, they need to ask Washington (if Porter is available) or Philly (is Covington available) and if not, take the best deal they can get with Miami and move on. JRich and parts is more than a turd sandwich. Which if Butler stays is what we'll have.

I don't really like the package miami had to offer, but will gladly take a whiteside/ richardson package for jimmy if we can include a thibbs for spoelstra swap.