Minnesota Sports Forum

kekgeek1 wrote:

mrhockey89 wrote:

Camden wrote:Some fans didn't enjoy how the Wolves were winning games. Some players didn't enjoy how Jimmy Butler chose to lead.

I guess we see which side was wrong.

I'm not sure if it's so much not appreciating Butler's skill set, but rather not appreciating his seething attitude. Most of us agreed with Butler on the young teammates AAU attitude, but he was such a negative drain on everyone mentally. To me it's one thing to challenge his teammates and hold them accountable, but it's another to be a complete jackass.

That said, he's always been really good.

Fair but when you see the Heat start 3rd year player Bam, 2nd year player Robinson, rookie Herro and main bench rookie dunn play well its hard to give the Wolves players a pass

Exactly. KAT looks like a soft little baby in hindsight. The more I look at the evidence, the more he comes off as one of the biggest pretenders in the league. Hugely skilled? Yes. Winner? Zero evidence so far. And I don't see DLO as the antidote as he isn't exactly a model of intensity and toughness either.

But I don't see any appetite from the front office to give up on a tandem that hasn't even really played together yet. We'll see what happens next season, but I'm not optimistic.

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

mrhockey89 wrote:

Camden wrote:Some fans didn't enjoy how the Wolves were winning games. Some players didn't enjoy how Jimmy Butler chose to lead.

I guess we see which side was wrong.

I'm not sure if it's so much not appreciating Butler's skill set, but rather not appreciating his seething attitude. Most of us agreed with Butler on the young teammates AAU attitude, but he was such a negative drain on everyone mentally. To me it's one thing to challenge his teammates and hold them accountable, but it's another to be a complete jackass.

That said, he's always been really good.

Fair but when you see the Heat start 3rd year player Bam, 2nd year player Robinson, rookie Herro and main bench rookie dunn play well its hard to give the Wolves players a pass

Exactly. KAT looks like a soft little baby in hindsight. The more I look at the evidence, the more he comes off as one of the biggest pretenders in the league. Hugely skilled? Yes. Winner? Zero evidence so far. And I don't see DLO as the antidote as he isn't exactly a model of intensity and toughness either.

But I don't see any appetite from the front office to give up on a tandem that hasn't even really played together yet. We'll see what happens next season, but I'm not optimistic.

Towns is the only guy left now so that's the guy to be concerned about and yeah this doesn't look good for him. I'll say though that I have a hard time not questioning the organization too and at the time that was led by Thibs. The whole thing blew up on his watch. He brought in Butler and it didn't work. I still think some part of the reason why Butler left was he didn't think Thibs was going to get the job done at some level. Meanwhile Jimmy is playing under a HOF GM and a coach that's likely heading there too IMO. Spolstra should have already been considered one of the elite coaches in the league but now people are seeing it even more. The Heat won a game and were competitive in the previous game without Bam. The organization has been able to get more out of guys than other places has and also been able to draft and develop guys.

Meanwhile...Butler is playing in a way that is starting to disprove the idea some people (Including myself to some extent) have put forth that he isn't good enough to be THE guy on a Championship team. One thing to consider is that right now the Heat are playing quite a few guys that are shooters so that likely opens things up for Butler to do his thing.

khans2k5 wrote:I hope KAT watches this series and realizes what he gave up for his ego and lack of effort. A 40 point triple double when you're down two starters to win a finals game is some superstar shit.

That was a good game. It goes multiple ways. Not just KAT. Jimmy had to be the man and I think that alienated both KAT and Wiggins. Both players were not excelling with Jimmy here. It was clear that a change was needed. Either trading the young guys to go all vets with Taj, Dieng and Jimmy, etc. Or simply trade Jimmy SOONER before he blew up the team to get his way out.

I don't think Jimmy has the success here if we kept him and Thibs. You'd still have a thin roster with how poorly Thibs drafts and signs guys. Jimmy found his place in Miami. He couldn't get it done in Chicago or Philly either.

There is a point about KAT not being the ultra competitive killer that Jimmy is though. As great as he is he doesn't have the skills to drive and dish at a high level and make teammates better either. Wiggins was never a killer either.

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

mrhockey89 wrote:

Camden wrote:Some fans didn't enjoy how the Wolves were winning games. Some players didn't enjoy how Jimmy Butler chose to lead.

I guess we see which side was wrong.

I'm not sure if it's so much not appreciating Butler's skill set, but rather not appreciating his seething attitude. Most of us agreed with Butler on the young teammates AAU attitude, but he was such a negative drain on everyone mentally. To me it's one thing to challenge his teammates and hold them accountable, but it's another to be a complete jackass.

That said, he's always been really good.

Fair but when you see the Heat start 3rd year player Bam, 2nd year player Robinson, rookie Herro and main bench rookie dunn play well its hard to give the Wolves players a pass

Exactly. KAT looks like a soft little baby in hindsight. The more I look at the evidence, the more he comes off as one of the biggest pretenders in the league. Hugely skilled? Yes. Winner? Zero evidence so far. And I don't see DLO as the antidote as he isn't exactly a model of intensity and toughness either.

But I don't see any appetite from the front office to give up on a tandem that hasn't even really played together yet. We'll see what happens next season, but I'm not optimistic.

Towns is the only guy left now so that's the guy to be concerned about and yeah this doesn't look good for him. I'll say though that I have a hard time not questioning the organization too and at the time that was led by Thibs. The whole thing blew up on his watch. He brought in Butler and it didn't work. I still think some part of the reason why Butler left was he didn't think Thibs was going to get the job done at some level. Meanwhile Jimmy is playing under a HOF GM and a coach that's likely heading there too IMO. Spolstra should have already been considered one of the elite coaches in the league but now people are seeing it even more. The Heat won a game and were competitive in the previous game without Bam. The organization has been able to get more out of guys than other places has and also been able to draft and develop guys.

Meanwhile...Butler is playing in a way that is starting to disprove the idea some people (Including myself to some extent) have put forth that he isn't good enough to be THE guy on a Championship team. One thing to consider is that right now the Heat are playing quite a few guys that are shooters so that likely opens things up for Butler to do his thing.

They still are not beating the Lakers so I think we will be proven right in the end. I never thought Jimmy as the guy would be able to carry a team to a championship. He's gotten closer to that then I thought though. But he has had a lot of help in a perfect situation. I highly doubt if he stayed here with Thibs the Wolves are in the Championship game now. ;)

WolvesFan21 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

mrhockey89 wrote:

Camden wrote:Some fans didn't enjoy how the Wolves were winning games. Some players didn't enjoy how Jimmy Butler chose to lead.

I guess we see which side was wrong.

I'm not sure if it's so much not appreciating Butler's skill set, but rather not appreciating his seething attitude. Most of us agreed with Butler on the young teammates AAU attitude, but he was such a negative drain on everyone mentally. To me it's one thing to challenge his teammates and hold them accountable, but it's another to be a complete jackass.

That said, he's always been really good.

Fair but when you see the Heat start 3rd year player Bam, 2nd year player Robinson, rookie Herro and main bench rookie dunn play well its hard to give the Wolves players a pass

Exactly. KAT looks like a soft little baby in hindsight. The more I look at the evidence, the more he comes off as one of the biggest pretenders in the league. Hugely skilled? Yes. Winner? Zero evidence so far. And I don't see DLO as the antidote as he isn't exactly a model of intensity and toughness either.

But I don't see any appetite from the front office to give up on a tandem that hasn't even really played together yet. We'll see what happens next season, but I'm not optimistic.

Towns is the only guy left now so that's the guy to be concerned about and yeah this doesn't look good for him. I'll say though that I have a hard time not questioning the organization too and at the time that was led by Thibs. The whole thing blew up on his watch. He brought in Butler and it didn't work. I still think some part of the reason why Butler left was he didn't think Thibs was going to get the job done at some level. Meanwhile Jimmy is playing under a HOF GM and a coach that's likely heading there too IMO. Spolstra should have already been considered one of the elite coaches in the league but now people are seeing it even more. The Heat won a game and were competitive in the previous game without Bam. The organization has been able to get more out of guys than other places has and also been able to draft and develop guys.

Meanwhile...Butler is playing in a way that is starting to disprove the idea some people (Including myself to some extent) have put forth that he isn't good enough to be THE guy on a Championship team. One thing to consider is that right now the Heat are playing quite a few guys that are shooters so that likely opens things up for Butler to do his thing.

They still are not beating the Lakers so I think we will be proven right in the end. I never thought Jimmy as the guy would be able to carry a team to a championship. He's gotten closer to that then I thought though. But he has had a lot of help in a perfect situation. I highly doubt if he stayed here with Thibs the Wolves are in the Championship game now. ;)

I'm not disagreeing with you too much but Miami did beat the Bucks which is pretty impressive. Let's see one this series plays out. I still look at this bubble as a little outside the norm and I don't want to take TOO much from it especially since I'm not watching games like I typically would. I agree with your point that Butler and the pieces around him didn't really work and to me that extended beyond just Wiggins and Towns. It's also fair to remember he didn't exactly play awesome in that Houston series...of course Towns struggled early in the series for sure.

Fun stat...Butler went for a 40 point triple double and took Zero 3's. Lol

Psst... Jimmy Butler was partly unhappy in Minnesota because the organization wasn't ready to commit to him as a max contract player. I'd assume part of that was because they were already paying Karl-Anthony Towns and Andrew Wiggins as max contract players and Butler felt like he contributed to winning more than they did, which he was right.

Who knows what happens if Glen Taylor lets Tom Thibodeau try and deal Wiggins? Who knows what happens if Taylor doesn't fire Thibs and lets him try to resolve the Butler situation? Who knows what happens if Thibs had decided to blow it all up and retool around Butler himself? Those are questions we'll never know the answer to and part of that is because of Minnesota's ownership interfering with basketball operations on an unknown level.

WolvesFan21 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

mrhockey89 wrote:

Camden wrote:Some fans didn't enjoy how the Wolves were winning games. Some players didn't enjoy how Jimmy Butler chose to lead.

I guess we see which side was wrong.

I'm not sure if it's so much not appreciating Butler's skill set, but rather not appreciating his seething attitude. Most of us agreed with Butler on the young teammates AAU attitude, but he was such a negative drain on everyone mentally. To me it's one thing to challenge his teammates and hold them accountable, but it's another to be a complete jackass.

That said, he's always been really good.

Fair but when you see the Heat start 3rd year player Bam, 2nd year player Robinson, rookie Herro and main bench rookie dunn play well its hard to give the Wolves players a pass

Exactly. KAT looks like a soft little baby in hindsight. The more I look at the evidence, the more he comes off as one of the biggest pretenders in the league. Hugely skilled? Yes. Winner? Zero evidence so far. And I don't see DLO as the antidote as he isn't exactly a model of intensity and toughness either.

But I don't see any appetite from the front office to give up on a tandem that hasn't even really played together yet. We'll see what happens next season, but I'm not optimistic.

Towns is the only guy left now so that's the guy to be concerned about and yeah this doesn't look good for him. I'll say though that I have a hard time not questioning the organization too and at the time that was led by Thibs. The whole thing blew up on his watch. He brought in Butler and it didn't work. I still think some part of the reason why Butler left was he didn't think Thibs was going to get the job done at some level. Meanwhile Jimmy is playing under a HOF GM and a coach that's likely heading there too IMO. Spolstra should have already been considered one of the elite coaches in the league but now people are seeing it even more. The Heat won a game and were competitive in the previous game without Bam. The organization has been able to get more out of guys than other places has and also been able to draft and develop guys.

Meanwhile...Butler is playing in a way that is starting to disprove the idea some people (Including myself to some extent) have put forth that he isn't good enough to be THE guy on a Championship team. One thing to consider is that right now the Heat are playing quite a few guys that are shooters so that likely opens things up for Butler to do his thing.

They still are not beating the Lakers so I think we will be proven right in the end. I never thought Jimmy as the guy would be able to carry a team to a championship. He's gotten closer to that then I thought though. But he has had a lot of help in a perfect situation. I highly doubt if he stayed here with Thibs the Wolves are in the Championship game now. ;)

You're really gonna fault a guy in that conversation because he can't beat 2 of the 5 best players in the league? The Lakers have 2 guys that can be the best player on a title contender. If that's the case with Jimmy how can Giannis be considered one of those guys considering he's never made a finals at this point?

WolvesFan21 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

mrhockey89 wrote:

Camden wrote:Some fans didn't enjoy how the Wolves were winning games. Some players didn't enjoy how Jimmy Butler chose to lead.

I guess we see which side was wrong.

I'm not sure if it's so much not appreciating Butler's skill set, but rather not appreciating his seething attitude. Most of us agreed with Butler on the young teammates AAU attitude, but he was such a negative drain on everyone mentally. To me it's one thing to challenge his teammates and hold them accountable, but it's another to be a complete jackass.

That said, he's always been really good.

Fair but when you see the Heat start 3rd year player Bam, 2nd year player Robinson, rookie Herro and main bench rookie dunn play well its hard to give the Wolves players a pass

Exactly. KAT looks like a soft little baby in hindsight. The more I look at the evidence, the more he comes off as one of the biggest pretenders in the league. Hugely skilled? Yes. Winner? Zero evidence so far. And I don't see DLO as the antidote as he isn't exactly a model of intensity and toughness either.

But I don't see any appetite from the front office to give up on a tandem that hasn't even really played together yet. We'll see what happens next season, but I'm not optimistic.

Towns is the only guy left now so that's the guy to be concerned about and yeah this doesn't look good for him. I'll say though that I have a hard time not questioning the organization too and at the time that was led by Thibs. The whole thing blew up on his watch. He brought in Butler and it didn't work. I still think some part of the reason why Butler left was he didn't think Thibs was going to get the job done at some level. Meanwhile Jimmy is playing under a HOF GM and a coach that's likely heading there too IMO. Spolstra should have already been considered one of the elite coaches in the league but now people are seeing it even more. The Heat won a game and were competitive in the previous game without Bam. The organization has been able to get more out of guys than other places has and also been able to draft and develop guys.

Meanwhile...Butler is playing in a way that is starting to disprove the idea some people (Including myself to some extent) have put forth that he isn't good enough to be THE guy on a Championship team. One thing to consider is that right now the Heat are playing quite a few guys that are shooters so that likely opens things up for Butler to do his thing.

They still are not beating the Lakers so I think we will be proven right in the end. I never thought Jimmy as the guy would be able to carry a team to a championship. He's gotten closer to that then I thought though. But he has had a lot of help in a perfect situation. I highly doubt if he stayed here with Thibs the Wolves are in the Championship game now. ;)

Big gap between championship series... and the #1 pick amid a multiple years rebuild.

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:Some fans didn't enjoy how the Wolves were winning games. Some players didn't enjoy how Jimmy Butler chose to lead.

I guess we see which side was wrong.

Watching Jimmy play and seeing the team win was a pleasure. I just couldn't stand watching Thibodeau coach and I saw no evidence that the team overachieved with him at the helm. The team was terrible under Thibodeau before Jimmy came here and terrible after Jimmy left. They were also bad when Jimmy was hurt as we saw when the Wolves fell from what looked like a top 4 team to barely making the playoffs. Jimmy Butler was a terrific player, but it was obviously a mistake to think he would last here given the nature and age of the young core players he was paired with and the culture of this organization. Credit Thibodeau the PBO for bringing Jimmy here, but he couldn't keep him here. The fans didn't run Butler out of town. The Wolves organization screwed up. So the only ones on the wrong side were Thibodeau and Glen Taylor.

That's relative.

Butler missed 25 games the second part of the season. The Wolves were 12 - 13 in those games. That's not great... and the team started 19 - 21 the next season as Butler's surliness and petulance ruined the season. The Wolves were still 19 - 21 under Thibodeau with Butler choosing when he wanted to play. Saunders went 17 - 25 the rest of the way.

Before Butler arrived... 31 - 51. Last year, 19 - 45.

In annals of shitty Timberwolves basketball, Thibodeau's Wolves winning at a 48% clip would actually be among the better seasons in franchise history.

khans2k5 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

mrhockey89 wrote:

Camden wrote:Some fans didn't enjoy how the Wolves were winning games. Some players didn't enjoy how Jimmy Butler chose to lead.

I guess we see which side was wrong.

I'm not sure if it's so much not appreciating Butler's skill set, but rather not appreciating his seething attitude. Most of us agreed with Butler on the young teammates AAU attitude, but he was such a negative drain on everyone mentally. To me it's one thing to challenge his teammates and hold them accountable, but it's another to be a complete jackass.

That said, he's always been really good.

Fair but when you see the Heat start 3rd year player Bam, 2nd year player Robinson, rookie Herro and main bench rookie dunn play well its hard to give the Wolves players a pass

Exactly. KAT looks like a soft little baby in hindsight. The more I look at the evidence, the more he comes off as one of the biggest pretenders in the league. Hugely skilled? Yes. Winner? Zero evidence so far. And I don't see DLO as the antidote as he isn't exactly a model of intensity and toughness either.

But I don't see any appetite from the front office to give up on a tandem that hasn't even really played together yet. We'll see what happens next season, but I'm not optimistic.

Towns is the only guy left now so that's the guy to be concerned about and yeah this doesn't look good for him. I'll say though that I have a hard time not questioning the organization too and at the time that was led by Thibs. The whole thing blew up on his watch. He brought in Butler and it didn't work. I still think some part of the reason why Butler left was he didn't think Thibs was going to get the job done at some level. Meanwhile Jimmy is playing under a HOF GM and a coach that's likely heading there too IMO. Spolstra should have already been considered one of the elite coaches in the league but now people are seeing it even more. The Heat won a game and were competitive in the previous game without Bam. The organization has been able to get more out of guys than other places has and also been able to draft and develop guys.

Meanwhile...Butler is playing in a way that is starting to disprove the idea some people (Including myself to some extent) have put forth that he isn't good enough to be THE guy on a Championship team. One thing to consider is that right now the Heat are playing quite a few guys that are shooters so that likely opens things up for Butler to do his thing.

They still are not beating the Lakers so I think we will be proven right in the end. I never thought Jimmy as the guy would be able to carry a team to a championship. He's gotten closer to that then I thought though. But he has had a lot of help in a perfect situation. I highly doubt if he stayed here with Thibs the Wolves are in the Championship game now. ;)

You're really gonna fault a guy in that conversation because he can't beat 2 of the 5 best players in the league? The Lakers have 2 guys that can be the best player on a title contender. If that's the case with Jimmy how can Giannis be considered one of those guys considering he's never made a finals at this point?

To be fair though. Wasn't Miami the 5 seed? Do they even get past the first round without the bubble? How are they without Herro? Butler has been inconsistent throughout these playoffs as other guys like Bam and Herro have stepped up. They have a great coach, GM and team. Butler is just a piece of a nice puzzle, even a very good one. I wouldn't read too much into one game when the Lakers came out flat.

Let's see what happens in game 4 and 5. I'll say Lakers in 5.