News from the Orlando Bubble

[Lipoli390]

Butler leads Miami in pretty much every imaginable advanced stat for the playoffs: Win shares, VORP, PER, BPM, etc. He's the best player on a legit contending team. Obviously he hasn't done it alone, just like LeBron hasn't done it alone. But all one has to do is look at the "before and after" of the Wolves with and without Butler to know that he is a big-time difference maker.

It's possible for all of these statements to be true at the same time:
- Wiggins never even came close to living up to his max deal and failed to demonstrate a true commitment to playing the game hard.
- KAT has a fragile ego and is incapable of leading a team in a credible fashion.
- Thibs' personality was a bad fit with the young players he had to work with.
- Butler was a bad fit with the young players he had to work with and a franchise financially committed to them first.
- Butler ended his time with the Wolves in an immature and unprofessional way.
- Butler, by far, has the most positive impact in real games of the three players mentioned here.

It just didn't work, but with the benefit of hindsight, the scale of blame is starting to tip more in the KAT/Wiggins direction.

I think all of those statements are, in fact, true.

The only thing I'd add is that Jimmy would not have demanded a trade if the Wolves had given him the contract he wanted. So as much as we talk about his issues with KAT and Wiggins, Jimmy's departure came down to money. It's also important to remember that the Wolves made the playoffs that year with Jimmy when KAT was still only 21 years old. And we would have probably finished in the top 4 or 5 that season if Butler hadn't had that extended injury.

What all that means is that, if the Wolves had paid Butler what it would have taken to keep him, it would have been interesting to see how things would have developed. Of course, there was that issue of Butler sleeping with KAT's girlfriend, so perhaps KAT would have demanded a trade. In the end, it just didn't work here for a lot of reasons. It didn't work out for Butler in Philadelphia either just as it didn't work out for him in Chicago when they went young.

I think Butler has matured a lot through his recent experiences. But the one thing Butler has always been, and continues to be, is a great two-way player.

[worldK]

I think Butler has matured a lot through his recent experiencesButler has matured a lot through his recent experiences. But the one thing Butler has always been, and continues to be, is a great two-way player.

I think Lip basically sums it up with that sentence. You have to remember that butler recently had a kid and became a father. As a father myself, having a kid definitely changes you and make you mature instantly. Also, this is his 4th team in 3 years and there were trouble everywhere he went. He is smart enough to have learn from those experiences.

Lip also bring up a valid point in that jimmy would have stayed if he got a mx deal from us. Thibs thought jimmy would be fine with being the in the caretaker/mentor/ leader role and not care too much about the money as long as we win. He was dead wrong. Sixers was, and still is built around embiid and simmons. Jimmy was viewed the same way we viewed him here. The caretaker for the time being before they hand the reigns fully to embiid and simmons. Butler is basically the alpha on the heat. No other max guys there when he got there. He was going to be the guy to start the build to contender.

Jimmy is a great player. What he did for the heat this season is outstanding. But the circumstances play a factor if we look at it objectively.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

We literally couldn't give Jimmy the deal he wanted without gutting the entire roster except KAT and Wiggins. The extension wasn't good enough so the only way to pay him was going to be to clear enough space and we wouldn't have had a team left. So in the end he wanted management to pick him or Wiggins/KAT and they picked Wiggins/KAT. He's playing in the finals right now and we couldn't even qualify for the bubble so...

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I guess the point is, with the benefit of hindsight, the right decision would have been to keep Butler on a max deal and trade KAT. I'm not suggesting this decision was obvious to anyone at the time (well, except may be Butler), but it's likely true we would have been a better team for it.

[Porckchop]

Butler at his age is more likely to be a 2nd or 3rd option on a title contending team going forward. A shortened season and player injury no doubt contributed to the Heats success. I highly doubt Miami duplicates what has transpired this season with their current roster. IMO

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Butler at his age is more likely to be a 2nd or 3rd option on a title contending team going forward. A shortened season and player injury no doubt contributed to the Heats success. I highly doubt Miami duplicates what has transpired this season with their current roster. IMO

Who on Milwaukee and Boston were hurt during those series? They destroyed the Bucks (1 seed) and took down the Celtics (3 seed) with very little injuries to both teams. Those were legit series wins. Their core pieces outside of Jimmy are 20 (Herro), 23 (Bam) and 26 (Robinson). Iggy and Crowder are veteran role players that can be replaced and Dragic as a scoring PG is in one of the most replaceable roles in the league if they don't want to bring him back. And they've got 24 million in cap space they can spend this summer if they want. They seem to be in prime position to take this current roster and improve on it because they've managed the cap well and most of their core is just getting better. What if they find a way to get CP3 and their closing lineup is CP3, Herro, Robinson, Butler and Bam? They have lots of options to improve on a finals team which is rarely the case.

[thedoper]

I guess the point is, with the benefit of hindsight, the right decision would have been to keep Butler on a max deal and trade KAT. I'm not suggesting this decision was obvious to anyone at the time (well, except may be Butler), but it's likely true we would have been a better team for it.

And that's just it. If it was any other team this is excusable, I think in reality since this is one in a series of wrong turns it just adds to the numbness Wolves fans feel. Our optimism blinded us to some of the cold hard realities of our team. If KAT can never become a defensive force I dont see how we make up for it unless we have an unprecedentedly amazing offense, which still only gets us in the playoffs and likely out in the first round. I think one of the big issues now in the NBA is that your big, whether a star or not, needs to be a smart defender. Not necessarily a great defender, but smart. Hard to see KAT getting there from what hes shown so far, which is kind of crazy with the amount of talent he has and the bright demeanor he seems to show.

[Porckchop]

Butler at his age is more likely to be a 2nd or 3rd option on a title contending team going forward. A shortened season and player injury no doubt contributed to the Heats success. I highly doubt Miami duplicates what has transpired this season with their current roster. IMO

Who on Milwaukee and Boston were hurt during those series? They destroyed the Bucks (1 seed) and took down the Celtics (3 seed) with very little injuries to both teams. Those were legit series wins. Their core pieces outside of Jimmy are 20 (Herro), 23 (Bam) and 26 (Robinson). Iggy and Crowder are veteran role players that can be replaced and Dragic as a scoring PG is in one of the most replaceable roles in the league if they don't want to bring him back. And they've got 24 million in cap space they can spend this summer if they want. They seem to be in prime position to take this current roster and improve on it because they've managed the cap well and most of their core is just getting better. What if they find a way to get CP3 and their closing lineup is CP3, Herro, Robinson, Butler and Bam? They have lots of options to improve on a finals team which is rarely the case.

Jersey played well in the Bubble without Kyrie or Durant. I still think Milwaukee is a better team and will also improve upon their lineup moving forward. Miami had a great run no doubt, but repeating it will be difficult given a full season and with other team's looking to be much improved as well. Again, JMO!

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Butler at his age is more likely to be a 2nd or 3rd option on a title contending team going forward. A shortened season and player injury no doubt contributed to the Heats success. I highly doubt Miami duplicates what has transpired this season with their current roster. IMO

Who on Milwaukee and Boston were hurt during those series? They destroyed the Bucks (1 seed) and took down the Celtics (3 seed) with very little injuries to both teams. Those were legit series wins. Their core pieces outside of Jimmy are 20 (Herro), 23 (Bam) and 26 (Robinson). Iggy and Crowder are veteran role players that can be replaced and Dragic as a scoring PG is in one of the most replaceable roles in the league if they don't want to bring him back. And they've got 24 million in cap space they can spend this summer if they want. They seem to be in prime position to take this current roster and improve on it because they've managed the cap well and most of their core is just getting better. What if they find a way to get CP3 and their closing lineup is CP3, Herro, Robinson, Butler and Bam? They have lots of options to improve on a finals team which is rarely the case.

Jersey played well in the Bubble without Kyrie or Durant. I still think Milwaukee is a better team and will also improve upon their lineup moving forward. Miami had a great run no doubt, but repeating it will be difficult given a full season and with other team's looking to be much improved as well. Again, JMO!

It's fine to think they might struggle to repeat but it's just tired rhetoric to claim they are here because of a shortened season and injuries. That's always the excuse when an unexpected team takes care of business in the playoffs. Everyone had the same circumstances, this was literally the most even the playing field can get in basketball and they came out on top beating what likely would have been the top 2 seeds in the conference if the full year played out. No need to downplay their achievement this year just because you don't believe they'll be able to repeat what they've done next year.

[Porckchop]

Butler at his age is more likely to be a 2nd or 3rd option on a title contending team going forward. A shortened season and player injury no doubt contributed to the Heats success. I highly doubt Miami duplicates what has transpired this season with their current roster. IMO

Who on Milwaukee and Boston were hurt during those series? They destroyed the Bucks (1 seed) and took down the Celtics (3 seed) with very little injuries to both teams. Those were legit series wins. Their core pieces outside of Jimmy are 20 (Herro), 23 (Bam) and 26 (Robinson). Iggy and Crowder are veteran role players that can be replaced and Dragic as a scoring PG is in one of the most replaceable roles in the league if they don't want to bring him back. And they've got 24 million in cap space they can spend this summer if they want. They seem to be in prime position to take this current roster and improve on it because they've managed the cap well and most of their core is just getting better. What if they find a way to get CP3 and their closing lineup is CP3, Herro, Robinson, Butler and Bam? They have lots of options to improve on a finals team which is rarely the case.

Jersey played well in the Bubble without Kyrie or Durant. I still think Milwaukee is a better team and will also improve upon their lineup moving forward. Miami had a great run no doubt, but repeating it will be difficult given a full season and with other team's looking to be much improved as well. Again, JMO!

It's fine to think they might struggle to repeat but it's just tired rhetoric to claim they are here because of a shortened season and injuries. That's always the excuse when an unexpected team takes care of business in the playoffs. Everyone had the same circumstances, this was literally the most even the playing field can get in basketball and they came out on top beating what likely would have been the top 2 seeds in the conference if the full year played out. No need to downplay their achievement this year just because you don't believe they'll be able to repeat what they've done next year.

It can't always be the excuse when it's never happened before.