Minnesota Sports Forum

bleedspeed177 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Martin is a goner guys. And he should be.

I agree. He and Williams need to go.

I don't share the Martin disdain. Yeah, his inconsistent effort bothers me sometimes and he will never be a great defender, but he's the most likely guy on the roster to put up 30 on any given night. I continue to see him differently than I did last year. There is more consistent effort on D than last year, and again last night, he really wanted the ball in the 4th quarter as opposed to hiding like he did last year. He's a terrific shooter, adept at using screens to get open, and one of our only players who can create his own shot. His best role should be backing up Wiggins at the 2, but his elite scoring makes him worth the $7 million even off the bench.

AP guy Jonny K said a week ago that he was hearing Mo and Thad were been actively shopped, but that he didn't believe Martin was. He's usually right, and in this case I hope so. That said, Martin's shooting could really help a playoff team, and if Flip could get something in return that makes us better long term, he would likely do it.

LST, TO me it is not about talent skill or contract with Martin. It is that he will start and keep the younger players from developing. Once the trading deadline passes I really would expect us to be playing for next year and beyond. That means more minutes with Rubio for Shabazz, Lavine, and AB.

bleedspeed177 wrote:LST, TO me it is not about talent skill or contract with Martin. It is that he will start and keep the younger players from developing. Once the trading deadline passes I really would expect us to be playing for next year and beyond. That means more minutes with Rubio for Shabazz, Lavine, and AB.

Yeah, I understand that argument, bleed, and it's why the Brewer trade didn't bother me too much...because it opened up minutes for Shabazz. I still would prefer to keep Martin though. Shabazz is going to get his minutes, Martin playing doesn't really impact AB's minutes, and frankly I've seen enough of LaVine for this year. He was terrible last night, and hasn't looked very good at SG since Ricky came back. I like Zach's potential long term, but he doesn't help us win, and I want more games like last night. Find a D-League team that can give him 35 minutes a game, and challenge him to go to the basket as often as he can, and them bring him back for the last 10 games of the season to see what he has learned.

longstrangetrip wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:LST, TO me it is not about talent skill or contract with Martin. It is that he will start and keep the younger players from developing. Once the trading deadline passes I really would expect us to be playing for next year and beyond. That means more minutes with Rubio for Shabazz, Lavine, and AB.

Yeah, I understand that argument, bleed, and it's why the Brewer trade didn't bother me too much...because it opened up minutes for Shabazz. I still would prefer to keep Martin though. Shabazz is going to get his minutes, Martin playing doesn't really impact AB's minutes, and frankly I've seen enough of LaVine for this year. He was terrible last night, and hasn't looked very good at SG since Ricky came back. I like Zach's potential long term, but he doesn't help us win, and I want more games like last night. Find a D-League team that can give him 35 minutes a game, and challenge him to go to the basket as often as he can, and them bring him back for the last 10 games of the season to see what he has learned.

This is where it really hurts not to have our own D-League affiliate. LaVine desperately needs to get big minutes playing the 2 on a D-league team where Flip and the affiate's coaching staff are aligned on what he needs to work on. As Britt has said, he's been a lodestone for the Wolves whenever he's on the court. He's simply not good enough yet to be developed in the context of competitive NBA games (as opposed to garbage time). He should be cranking out big minutes and playing without fear of being yanked at the D-league level.

I really don't see a problem with keeping Martin around. If we can find the right deal, then great. But there is no way he should be let go because he's somehow holding back guys. Actually, if anything, his ability to shoot the ball and demand attention can open things up for other guys. The paint gets awfully crowded when all we do are Wiggins, Shabazz, and Pekovic post-ups!

Martin:
- Is not consistent and has small balls at crunch time
- Does block the development of some of our guys. Wiggins needs to be the 2, Shabazz the 3
- Is much more valuable to other teams than us. Meaning his best value for us is what we can get for him.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Martin:
- Is not consistent and has small balls at crunch time
- Does block the development of some of our guys. Wiggins needs to be the 2, Shabazz the 3
- Is much more valuable to other teams than us. Meaning his best value for us is what we can get for him.

He's a vet with a knack for making shots throughout the game. Can get to the charity stripe nearly at will, which does a lot to change momentum and slow down the game when other teams go on runs. He is also our only legitimate 3pt shooter. Sure he has his faults, but I don't think we can afford to lose him right now. He helps us build momentum this year through wins, something we need for the change of this culture. You need to win some games for the development of those young guys. I'd rather look to trade him next year if things fall apart in the first half of the season and we need to shake things up.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Martin:
- Is not consistent and has small balls at crunch time
- Does block the development of some of our guys. Wiggins needs to be the 2, Shabazz the 3
- Is much more valuable to other teams than us. Meaning his best value for us is what we can get for him.

Cool, I don't want to trade Martin yet, but I largely agree with portions of your second and third points. I agree that Wiggins needs to be the 2 and Shabazz the 3, but Martin can provide valuable minutes off the bench as the third wing. If Flip uses him correctly, he shouldn't be blocking Wiggins or Shabazz at all.
As for your last point, if something is offered to Flip that clearly makes us better long term, I'm on board with letting him go. I'm just not confident a suitable deal is there. I don't want to just give him away like we did with Brewer.
I used to agree with your first point, but I no longer do. Last year it was so clear that Martin didn't want the ball at crunch time. A major part of his game is moving without the ball and using screens to get open, and in the 4th quarter last year he would quit doing this. He became invisible. But this year has been entirely different. If you watched last night's 4th quarter, he was as active without the ball as he was at the start of the game. I think he tended to defer to Love too much last year at crunch time. This year he acts like he knows he is our best option.

longstrangetrip wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Martin is a goner guys. And he should be.

I agree. He and Williams need to go.

I don't share the Martin disdain. Yeah, his inconsistent effort bothers me sometimes and he will never be a great defender, but he's the most likely guy on the roster to put up 30 on any given night. I continue to see him differently than I did last year. There is more consistent effort on D than last year, and again last night, he really wanted the ball in the 4th quarter as opposed to hiding like he did last year. He's a terrific shooter, adept at using screens to get open, and one of our only players who can create his own shot. His best role should be backing up Wiggins at the 2, but his elite scoring makes him worth the $7 million even off the bench.

AP guy Jonny K said a week ago that he was hearing Mo and Thad were been actively shopped, but that he didn't believe Martin was. He's usually right, and in this case I hope so. That said, Martin's shooting could really help a playoff team, and if Flip could get something in return that makes us better long term, he would likely do it.

I've been making the same argument for what feels like a year now. I'm perfectly good with keeping Martin. The guy can fill it up.

Myles Turner is about to play on ESPN.

Why can't our wing rotation be Martin/Wiggins/Bazz playing 33 minutes a piece. I think some people are mistaking not starting as being blocked. The only thing that matters is the minutes, not when they happen. If you trade Martin great, but now your backups to Wiggins and Bazz are Lavine and Bud. I don't see how that is worth it just to clear a starting spot. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Martin is on the perfect bridge deal for a guy like Lavine to get ready to be a contributor. It doesn't make sense to me to trade a player to clear a spot for someone when there is no good backup option as a result of the trade. The Brewer trade was ok because Bazz and Wiggins were left to man the 3. If you trade Martin, Wiggins has to shift to the 2 and you now have no viable backup for either the 3 or the 2. That seems like a short sighted move just to get Wiggins and Bazz to start at the 2/3 when they will already get plenty of time together throughout the game because our lack of quality depth at the 2/3.