Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

Camden wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:Patriotism is a crock. I was coerced during my indoctrination process to pledge allegiance to a silly flag a few thousand times. Got to get them when they are young and malleable.

I'm sure I'll regret asking you this, but why is patriotism a "crock" to you?

That "silly" flag might look like a piece cloth to you, but to many others it represents a country that their brothers and sisters, wives and husbands, sons and daughters, etc. all fought for with many lives being upended or killed. To others it represents their escape from a country that was less fortunate and likely more threatening than the United States with many less freedoms. And lastly that "silly" flag stands as a constant symbol of hope for a better tomorrow to those throughout this country and many others. Hope that many other individuals don't have and never will.

You obviously feel differently and that's totally fine. I would caution against disrespecting the idea of patriotism and any symbols of this nation, though. What it means to you and what it means to others is likely very different and what you feel is not what they feel for very real reasons. Reasons that you should not spit on with words like "silly."

-The U.S. imprisons the highest percentage of people in the world most when no victim is found. For instance the War on Drugs, which has put people in prison for life for selling a product people want.
-Taxes at one of the highest in the world in order to keeping us Serfs perpetually working and poor
-The U.S. has killed MORE people in other Countries then ANY other since WW2, mostly done to overtake those Countries and steal resources. Spends at least 10 times more on Military then any other Country every year. Almost a TRILLION a year. War is a Racket, read the book. U.S. has been at War for 222 out of 236 years. A true killing war machine.

So sorry if I don't support killing the most people in the World, imprisoning the most people in the World and keeping the population enslaved through tyrannical taxes and the ponzi scheme for a monetary system.

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html#c1

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson in the debate over the Re-charter of the Bank Bill (1809)

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." -Thomas Jefferson

"Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal - that there is no human relation between master and slave." Leo Tolstoy, Russian writer.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and money system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." Henry Ford, founder of the Ford Motor Company.

Woodrow Wilson signed the 1913 Federal Reserve Act. A few years later he wrote: "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson

This is just a smidgen of information by the way. I could list years and years worth of books, research and declassified information.

Okay, that didn't quite answer my question, but the effort is appreciated nonetheless. So, if you believe America is as awful as you say it is, then what makes you feel like residing here? Why not depart to some other country that must be much more suitable to your liking? I mean, this country through your eyes just isn't worth living in. There must be a better place for WolvesFan21 to live and raise a family than the United States.

Or perhaps you enjoy all of your freedoms and equal opportunity here. Hmm... That might be it. Yep.

My wife grew up in China. She could provide WolvesFan21 with a vivid description of true political oppression. Even today, in a more liberal China than the one my wife grew up in, few would dare publicly criticize the Chinese government in an Internet post. A good friend from India is fond of saying that Americans have no idea what true inequality is if they haven't been to India. My grandparents immigrated from Lithuania as 19 year olds, fleeing poverty and oppression. They had no money and no education when they arrived and life was difficult. But they were thankful for the opportunities this Country gave them until they passed away. American has its share of problems. There's a widening gap between rich and poor and racial bigotry remains far too prevalent in this Country. But we would all benefit from a little more perspective and a lot less hyperbole.

There certainly are positive things about this country. I don't want to settle for just being better than...whatever country. How many people are satisfied with mediocrity for this basketball team? People want excellence I want that for our country too. Are there countries better than us? Why?

Here is maybe a bit of a different perspective...last week I was at an event and heard a patriotic song and honestly my reaction after recently reading quite a bit of history of our country and knowing personal stories about what people still go through today...singing about freedom did ring a little hollow. Is there a chance to fight in some way for freedom now? Is fighting oppression patriotic?

Monster - I agree we have plenty of problems in this Country and that we should always strive to be better as a nation. Racism towards African Americans is a particularly disturbing manifestation of this Country's imperfections and it ties back to this Country's shameful legacy of slavery. But I was just reacting to what I see as a pervasive lack of perspective and a surplus of hyperbole in today's public political discourse. And it's prevalent on both ends of the political spectrum - from those on the right equating mask mandates during dangerous pandemic to naziism to those on the left who want to take down statues of George Washington and find shame in taking pride in a Country that people risk their lives to enter.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

Camden wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:Patriotism is a crock. I was coerced during my indoctrination process to pledge allegiance to a silly flag a few thousand times. Got to get them when they are young and malleable.

I'm sure I'll regret asking you this, but why is patriotism a "crock" to you?

That "silly" flag might look like a piece cloth to you, but to many others it represents a country that their brothers and sisters, wives and husbands, sons and daughters, etc. all fought for with many lives being upended or killed. To others it represents their escape from a country that was less fortunate and likely more threatening than the United States with many less freedoms. And lastly that "silly" flag stands as a constant symbol of hope for a better tomorrow to those throughout this country and many others. Hope that many other individuals don't have and never will.

You obviously feel differently and that's totally fine. I would caution against disrespecting the idea of patriotism and any symbols of this nation, though. What it means to you and what it means to others is likely very different and what you feel is not what they feel for very real reasons. Reasons that you should not spit on with words like "silly."

-The U.S. imprisons the highest percentage of people in the world most when no victim is found. For instance the War on Drugs, which has put people in prison for life for selling a product people want.
-Taxes at one of the highest in the world in order to keeping us Serfs perpetually working and poor
-The U.S. has killed MORE people in other Countries then ANY other since WW2, mostly done to overtake those Countries and steal resources. Spends at least 10 times more on Military then any other Country every year. Almost a TRILLION a year. War is a Racket, read the book. U.S. has been at War for 222 out of 236 years. A true killing war machine.

So sorry if I don't support killing the most people in the World, imprisoning the most people in the World and keeping the population enslaved through tyrannical taxes and the ponzi scheme for a monetary system.

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html#c1

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson in the debate over the Re-charter of the Bank Bill (1809)

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." -Thomas Jefferson

"Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal - that there is no human relation between master and slave." Leo Tolstoy, Russian writer.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and money system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." Henry Ford, founder of the Ford Motor Company.

Woodrow Wilson signed the 1913 Federal Reserve Act. A few years later he wrote: "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson

This is just a smidgen of information by the way. I could list years and years worth of books, research and declassified information.

Okay, that didn't quite answer my question, but the effort is appreciated nonetheless. So, if you believe America is as awful as you say it is, then what makes you feel like residing here? Why not depart to some other country that must be much more suitable to your liking? I mean, this country through your eyes just isn't worth living in. There must be a better place for WolvesFan21 to live and raise a family than the United States.

Or perhaps you enjoy all of your freedoms and equal opportunity here. Hmm... That might be it. Yep.

My wife grew up in China. She could provide WolvesFan21 with a vivid description of true political oppression. Even today, in a more liberal China than the one my wife grew up in, few would dare publicly criticize the Chinese government in an Internet post. A good friend from India is fond of saying that Americans have no idea what true inequality is if they haven't been to India. My grandparents immigrated from Lithuania as 19 year olds, fleeing poverty and oppression. They had no money and no education when they arrived and life was difficult. But they were thankful for the opportunities this Country gave them until they passed away. American has its share of problems. There's a widening gap between rich and poor and racial bigotry remains far too prevalent in this Country. But we would all benefit from a little more perspective and a lot less hyperbole.

There certainly are positive things about this country. I don't want to settle for just being better than...whatever country. How many people are satisfied with mediocrity for this basketball team? People want excellence I want that for our country too. Are there countries better than us? Why?

Here is maybe a bit of a different perspective...last week I was at an event and heard a patriotic song and honestly my reaction after recently reading quite a bit of history of our country and knowing personal stories about what people still go through today...singing about freedom did ring a little hollow. Is there a chance to fight in some way for freedom now? Is fighting oppression patriotic?

Monster - I agree we have plenty of problems in this Country and that we should always strive to be better as a nation. Racism towards African Americans is a particularly disturbing manifestation of this Country's imperfections and it ties back to this Country's shameful legacy of slavery. But I was just reacting to what I see as a pervasive lack of perspective and a surplus of hyperbole in today's public political discourse. And it's prevalent on both ends of the political spectrum - from those on the right equating mask mandates during dangerous pandemic to naziism to those on the left who want to take down statues of George Washington and find shame in taking pride in a Country that people risk their lives to enter.

All GOV's are inherently evil. It's just degrees of evilness. Chinas GOV is likely even more oppressive, but if we are comparing our GOV to the worst, then that is a very low standard.

The racist cop BLM push is a very myopic view of the real problems. Like I mentioned before.

-Imprisoning the highest percentage of people in the World. Most unjustly and not just because the are black, because they are poor. Poor people when arrested struggle to bail out of jail, so they sit many times for months waiting for trial or simply take whatever plea deal because it's a lesser sentence. Innocent until proven guilty? It's the other way around.

-Taxes at a level the Boston Tea partiers would find appalling. Simply designed to keep the masses poor and perpetually working. Money is the new form of slavery. A little tax on some tea doesn't sound so bad versus the tariffs and taxes we have on nearly everything. I got taxes on taxes on taxes. It's like a bizzaro world.

-Uses it's military to expand the US empire, install proxy GOV's and murder millions overseas. Not even the most patriotic person can agree all the Wars since WW2 have been just. Do I have to list the dozens of Countries?

WolvesFan21 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

Camden wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:Patriotism is a crock. I was coerced during my indoctrination process to pledge allegiance to a silly flag a few thousand times. Got to get them when they are young and malleable.

I'm sure I'll regret asking you this, but why is patriotism a "crock" to you?

That "silly" flag might look like a piece cloth to you, but to many others it represents a country that their brothers and sisters, wives and husbands, sons and daughters, etc. all fought for with many lives being upended or killed. To others it represents their escape from a country that was less fortunate and likely more threatening than the United States with many less freedoms. And lastly that "silly" flag stands as a constant symbol of hope for a better tomorrow to those throughout this country and many others. Hope that many other individuals don't have and never will.

You obviously feel differently and that's totally fine. I would caution against disrespecting the idea of patriotism and any symbols of this nation, though. What it means to you and what it means to others is likely very different and what you feel is not what they feel for very real reasons. Reasons that you should not spit on with words like "silly."

-The U.S. imprisons the highest percentage of people in the world most when no victim is found. For instance the War on Drugs, which has put people in prison for life for selling a product people want.
-Taxes at one of the highest in the world in order to keeping us Serfs perpetually working and poor
-The U.S. has killed MORE people in other Countries then ANY other since WW2, mostly done to overtake those Countries and steal resources. Spends at least 10 times more on Military then any other Country every year. Almost a TRILLION a year. War is a Racket, read the book. U.S. has been at War for 222 out of 236 years. A true killing war machine.

So sorry if I don't support killing the most people in the World, imprisoning the most people in the World and keeping the population enslaved through tyrannical taxes and the ponzi scheme for a monetary system.

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html#c1

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson in the debate over the Re-charter of the Bank Bill (1809)

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." -Thomas Jefferson

"Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal - that there is no human relation between master and slave." Leo Tolstoy, Russian writer.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and money system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." Henry Ford, founder of the Ford Motor Company.

Woodrow Wilson signed the 1913 Federal Reserve Act. A few years later he wrote: "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson

This is just a smidgen of information by the way. I could list years and years worth of books, research and declassified information.

Okay, that didn't quite answer my question, but the effort is appreciated nonetheless. So, if you believe America is as awful as you say it is, then what makes you feel like residing here? Why not depart to some other country that must be much more suitable to your liking? I mean, this country through your eyes just isn't worth living in. There must be a better place for WolvesFan21 to live and raise a family than the United States.

Or perhaps you enjoy all of your freedoms and equal opportunity here. Hmm... That might be it. Yep.

My wife grew up in China. She could provide WolvesFan21 with a vivid description of true political oppression. Even today, in a more liberal China than the one my wife grew up in, few would dare publicly criticize the Chinese government in an Internet post. A good friend from India is fond of saying that Americans have no idea what true inequality is if they haven't been to India. My grandparents immigrated from Lithuania as 19 year olds, fleeing poverty and oppression. They had no money and no education when they arrived and life was difficult. But they were thankful for the opportunities this Country gave them until they passed away. American has its share of problems. There's a widening gap between rich and poor and racial bigotry remains far too prevalent in this Country. But we would all benefit from a little more perspective and a lot less hyperbole.

There certainly are positive things about this country. I don't want to settle for just being better than...whatever country. How many people are satisfied with mediocrity for this basketball team? People want excellence I want that for our country too. Are there countries better than us? Why?

Here is maybe a bit of a different perspective...last week I was at an event and heard a patriotic song and honestly my reaction after recently reading quite a bit of history of our country and knowing personal stories about what people still go through today...singing about freedom did ring a little hollow. Is there a chance to fight in some way for freedom now? Is fighting oppression patriotic?

Monster - I agree we have plenty of problems in this Country and that we should always strive to be better as a nation. Racism towards African Americans is a particularly disturbing manifestation of this Country's imperfections and it ties back to this Country's shameful legacy of slavery. But I was just reacting to what I see as a pervasive lack of perspective and a surplus of hyperbole in today's public political discourse. And it's prevalent on both ends of the political spectrum - from those on the right equating mask mandates during dangerous pandemic to naziism to those on the left who want to take down statues of George Washington and find shame in taking pride in a Country that people risk their lives to enter.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

Camden wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:Patriotism is a crock. I was coerced during my indoctrination process to pledge allegiance to a silly flag a few thousand times. Got to get them when they are young and malleable.

I'm sure I'll regret asking you this, but why is patriotism a "crock" to you?

That "silly" flag might look like a piece cloth to you, but to many others it represents a country that their brothers and sisters, wives and husbands, sons and daughters, etc. all fought for with many lives being upended or killed. To others it represents their escape from a country that was less fortunate and likely more threatening than the United States with many less freedoms. And lastly that "silly" flag stands as a constant symbol of hope for a better tomorrow to those throughout this country and many others. Hope that many other individuals don't have and never will.

You obviously feel differently and that's totally fine. I would caution against disrespecting the idea of patriotism and any symbols of this nation, though. What it means to you and what it means to others is likely very different and what you feel is not what they feel for very real reasons. Reasons that you should not spit on with words like "silly."

-The U.S. imprisons the highest percentage of people in the world most when no victim is found. For instance the War on Drugs, which has put people in prison for life for selling a product people want.
-Taxes at one of the highest in the world in order to keeping us Serfs perpetually working and poor
-The U.S. has killed MORE people in other Countries then ANY other since WW2, mostly done to overtake those Countries and steal resources. Spends at least 10 times more on Military then any other Country every year. Almost a TRILLION a year. War is a Racket, read the book. U.S. has been at War for 222 out of 236 years. A true killing war machine.

So sorry if I don't support killing the most people in the World, imprisoning the most people in the World and keeping the population enslaved through tyrannical taxes and the ponzi scheme for a monetary system.

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html#c1

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson in the debate over the Re-charter of the Bank Bill (1809)

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." -Thomas Jefferson

"Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal - that there is no human relation between master and slave." Leo Tolstoy, Russian writer.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and money system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." Henry Ford, founder of the Ford Motor Company.

Woodrow Wilson signed the 1913 Federal Reserve Act. A few years later he wrote: "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson

This is just a smidgen of information by the way. I could list years and years worth of books, research and declassified information.

Okay, that didn't quite answer my question, but the effort is appreciated nonetheless. So, if you believe America is as awful as you say it is, then what makes you feel like residing here? Why not depart to some other country that must be much more suitable to your liking? I mean, this country through your eyes just isn't worth living in. There must be a better place for WolvesFan21 to live and raise a family than the United States.

Or perhaps you enjoy all of your freedoms and equal opportunity here. Hmm... That might be it. Yep.

My wife grew up in China. She could provide WolvesFan21 with a vivid description of true political oppression. Even today, in a more liberal China than the one my wife grew up in, few would dare publicly criticize the Chinese government in an Internet post. A good friend from India is fond of saying that Americans have no idea what true inequality is if they haven't been to India. My grandparents immigrated from Lithuania as 19 year olds, fleeing poverty and oppression. They had no money and no education when they arrived and life was difficult. But they were thankful for the opportunities this Country gave them until they passed away. American has its share of problems. There's a widening gap between rich and poor and racial bigotry remains far too prevalent in this Country. But we would all benefit from a little more perspective and a lot less hyperbole.

There certainly are positive things about this country. I don't want to settle for just being better than...whatever country. How many people are satisfied with mediocrity for this basketball team? People want excellence I want that for our country too. Are there countries better than us? Why?

Here is maybe a bit of a different perspective...last week I was at an event and heard a patriotic song and honestly my reaction after recently reading quite a bit of history of our country and knowing personal stories about what people still go through today...singing about freedom did ring a little hollow. Is there a chance to fight in some way for freedom now? Is fighting oppression patriotic?

Monster - I agree we have plenty of problems in this Country and that we should always strive to be better as a nation. Racism towards African Americans is a particularly disturbing manifestation of this Country's imperfections and it ties back to this Country's shameful legacy of slavery. But I was just reacting to what I see as a pervasive lack of perspective and a surplus of hyperbole in today's public political discourse. And it's prevalent on both ends of the political spectrum - from those on the right equating mask mandates during dangerous pandemic to naziism to those on the left who want to take down statues of George Washington and find shame in taking pride in a Country that people risk their lives to enter.

All GOV's are inherently evil. It's just degrees of evilness. Chinas GOV is likely even more oppressive, but if we are comparing our GOV to the worst, then that is a very low standard.

The racist cop BLM push is a very myopic view of the real problems. Like I mentioned before.

-Imprisoning the highest percentage of people in the World. Most unjustly and not just because the are black, because they are poor. Poor people when arrested struggle to bail out of jail, so they sit many times for months waiting for trial or simply take whatever plea deal because it's a lesser sentence. Innocent until proven guilty? It's the other way around.

-Taxes at a level the Boston Tea partiers would find appalling. Simply designed to keep the masses poor and perpetually working. Money is the new form of slavery. A little tax on some tea doesn't sound so bad versus the tariffs and taxes we have on nearly everything. I got taxes on taxes on taxes. It's like a bizzaro world.

-Uses it's military to expand the US empire, install proxy GOV's and murder millions overseas. Not even the most patriotic person can agree all the Wars since WW2 have been just. Do I have to list the dozens of Countries?

You knocked BLM of their myopic view of the real problems but many supporters of the movement actually agree with #1 of the points you just listed and likely part of #3. =) This is why we need to be looking deeper into what others believe both organizationally and individually.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

Camden wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:Patriotism is a crock. I was coerced during my indoctrination process to pledge allegiance to a silly flag a few thousand times. Got to get them when they are young and malleable.

I'm sure I'll regret asking you this, but why is patriotism a "crock" to you?

That "silly" flag might look like a piece cloth to you, but to many others it represents a country that their brothers and sisters, wives and husbands, sons and daughters, etc. all fought for with many lives being upended or killed. To others it represents their escape from a country that was less fortunate and likely more threatening than the United States with many less freedoms. And lastly that "silly" flag stands as a constant symbol of hope for a better tomorrow to those throughout this country and many others. Hope that many other individuals don't have and never will.

You obviously feel differently and that's totally fine. I would caution against disrespecting the idea of patriotism and any symbols of this nation, though. What it means to you and what it means to others is likely very different and what you feel is not what they feel for very real reasons. Reasons that you should not spit on with words like "silly."

-The U.S. imprisons the highest percentage of people in the world most when no victim is found. For instance the War on Drugs, which has put people in prison for life for selling a product people want.
-Taxes at one of the highest in the world in order to keeping us Serfs perpetually working and poor
-The U.S. has killed MORE people in other Countries then ANY other since WW2, mostly done to overtake those Countries and steal resources. Spends at least 10 times more on Military then any other Country every year. Almost a TRILLION a year. War is a Racket, read the book. U.S. has been at War for 222 out of 236 years. A true killing war machine.

So sorry if I don't support killing the most people in the World, imprisoning the most people in the World and keeping the population enslaved through tyrannical taxes and the ponzi scheme for a monetary system.

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html#c1

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson in the debate over the Re-charter of the Bank Bill (1809)

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." -Thomas Jefferson

"Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal - that there is no human relation between master and slave." Leo Tolstoy, Russian writer.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and money system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." Henry Ford, founder of the Ford Motor Company.

Woodrow Wilson signed the 1913 Federal Reserve Act. A few years later he wrote: "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson

This is just a smidgen of information by the way. I could list years and years worth of books, research and declassified information.

Okay, that didn't quite answer my question, but the effort is appreciated nonetheless. So, if you believe America is as awful as you say it is, then what makes you feel like residing here? Why not depart to some other country that must be much more suitable to your liking? I mean, this country through your eyes just isn't worth living in. There must be a better place for WolvesFan21 to live and raise a family than the United States.

Or perhaps you enjoy all of your freedoms and equal opportunity here. Hmm... That might be it. Yep.

My wife grew up in China. She could provide WolvesFan21 with a vivid description of true political oppression. Even today, in a more liberal China than the one my wife grew up in, few would dare publicly criticize the Chinese government in an Internet post. A good friend from India is fond of saying that Americans have no idea what true inequality is if they haven't been to India. My grandparents immigrated from Lithuania as 19 year olds, fleeing poverty and oppression. They had no money and no education when they arrived and life was difficult. But they were thankful for the opportunities this Country gave them until they passed away. American has its share of problems. There's a widening gap between rich and poor and racial bigotry remains far too prevalent in this Country. But we would all benefit from a little more perspective and a lot less hyperbole.

There certainly are positive things about this country. I don't want to settle for just being better than...whatever country. How many people are satisfied with mediocrity for this basketball team? People want excellence I want that for our country too. Are there countries better than us? Why?

Here is maybe a bit of a different perspective...last week I was at an event and heard a patriotic song and honestly my reaction after recently reading quite a bit of history of our country and knowing personal stories about what people still go through today...singing about freedom did ring a little hollow. Is there a chance to fight in some way for freedom now? Is fighting oppression patriotic?

Monster - I agree we have plenty of problems in this Country and that we should always strive to be better as a nation. Racism towards African Americans is a particularly disturbing manifestation of this Country's imperfections and it ties back to this Country's shameful legacy of slavery. But I was just reacting to what I see as a pervasive lack of perspective and a surplus of hyperbole in today's public political discourse. And it's prevalent on both ends of the political spectrum - from those on the right equating mask mandates during dangerous pandemic to naziism to those on the left who want to take down statues of George Washington and find shame in taking pride in a Country that people risk their lives to enter.

Agreed. I would only add that sometimes I've seen people basically use the idea that an issue where someone goes REALLY far means the issue isn't even worth discussing. I'm not suggesting that's what you were trying to do with what you posted. If someone feels REALLY strongly about something I wish we were better at being able to engage but I don't think we have been taught how to have true dialog in this country.

A few weeks ago I participated in https://www.coursera.org/learn/police-brutality-in-america-teach-out. Not everyone will agree with everything in it but there was some real practical information and examples that seemed quite worthwhile. One of the segments was speaking about journalism. I can't remember which of the segments it was but the video had a journalist talking about how there are functional ways they are trying to get a more balanced way of getting info about situations. In the past journalists tended to get the information from law enforcement and that was the primary source and then they worked from there. IN some situations that may not be in the best interest of reporting what actually happened.

I have plenty of distrust of the media. I also think we need to consider that the work much of the media is difficult. there has never been more information than there is now. Revenue streams are not always what they were. Watching the local Mayor's press conference some of the questions the media ask can be bizarre but they say they are often asking the questions they are getting at a high rate from people that want to know those answers. There is a balance between reporting news that you think is the most important and also asking the questions and giving answers to propel that you are getting your information to. this is before any biases the individual may have or their culture of the media outlet or any outside influences etc etc etc etc. I don't have a go to news media outlet. Sometimes I'll go to an outlet I generally don't trust to see what their take on an event to get a different perspective. Silence on a topic can be telling. Some in the media to me have clearly sold themselves out to money. Some are likely sold out to an agenda. Some are caught up in themselves. I'd guess there are many in various media types that are actually trying to do their jobs getting pretty good info out there. Keep in mind even if Media person wants to get the truth often its not something someone wants it to get out so they get misinformation. Lets be honest in saying that the Media have a difficult job. They should be criticized when they get it wrong (they absolutely should) but its not easy.

I think just saying its the media its the media!!! is too easy. it can absolve people from really searching for the truth and leads to apathy. I've certainly been there. Its also worth mentioning that there should also be a acknowledgement that being wrong shouldn't be such a horrible thing. I'm rereading "On Being Wrong: Adventures int he Margin of Error" and Chapter 2 starts out talking about a mistake a journalist made. Making a mistake will happen. Its human. I think there should be a difference between a mistake and misinformation. If people make a mistake and correct it that's one thing...but obviously you can't just print whatever and go back and fix it later.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

Camden wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:Patriotism is a crock. I was coerced during my indoctrination process to pledge allegiance to a silly flag a few thousand times. Got to get them when they are young and malleable.

I'm sure I'll regret asking you this, but why is patriotism a "crock" to you?

That "silly" flag might look like a piece cloth to you, but to many others it represents a country that their brothers and sisters, wives and husbands, sons and daughters, etc. all fought for with many lives being upended or killed. To others it represents their escape from a country that was less fortunate and likely more threatening than the United States with many less freedoms. And lastly that "silly" flag stands as a constant symbol of hope for a better tomorrow to those throughout this country and many others. Hope that many other individuals don't have and never will.

You obviously feel differently and that's totally fine. I would caution against disrespecting the idea of patriotism and any symbols of this nation, though. What it means to you and what it means to others is likely very different and what you feel is not what they feel for very real reasons. Reasons that you should not spit on with words like "silly."

-The U.S. imprisons the highest percentage of people in the world most when no victim is found. For instance the War on Drugs, which has put people in prison for life for selling a product people want.
-Taxes at one of the highest in the world in order to keeping us Serfs perpetually working and poor
-The U.S. has killed MORE people in other Countries then ANY other since WW2, mostly done to overtake those Countries and steal resources. Spends at least 10 times more on Military then any other Country every year. Almost a TRILLION a year. War is a Racket, read the book. U.S. has been at War for 222 out of 236 years. A true killing war machine.

So sorry if I don't support killing the most people in the World, imprisoning the most people in the World and keeping the population enslaved through tyrannical taxes and the ponzi scheme for a monetary system.

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html#c1

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson in the debate over the Re-charter of the Bank Bill (1809)

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." -Thomas Jefferson

"Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal - that there is no human relation between master and slave." Leo Tolstoy, Russian writer.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and money system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." Henry Ford, founder of the Ford Motor Company.

Woodrow Wilson signed the 1913 Federal Reserve Act. A few years later he wrote: "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson

This is just a smidgen of information by the way. I could list years and years worth of books, research and declassified information.

Okay, that didn't quite answer my question, but the effort is appreciated nonetheless. So, if you believe America is as awful as you say it is, then what makes you feel like residing here? Why not depart to some other country that must be much more suitable to your liking? I mean, this country through your eyes just isn't worth living in. There must be a better place for WolvesFan21 to live and raise a family than the United States.

Or perhaps you enjoy all of your freedoms and equal opportunity here. Hmm... That might be it. Yep.

My wife grew up in China. She could provide WolvesFan21 with a vivid description of true political oppression. Even today, in a more liberal China than the one my wife grew up in, few would dare publicly criticize the Chinese government in an Internet post. A good friend from India is fond of saying that Americans have no idea what true inequality is if they haven't been to India. My grandparents immigrated from Lithuania as 19 year olds, fleeing poverty and oppression. They had no money and no education when they arrived and life was difficult. But they were thankful for the opportunities this Country gave them until they passed away. American has its share of problems. There's a widening gap between rich and poor and racial bigotry remains far too prevalent in this Country. But we would all benefit from a little more perspective and a lot less hyperbole.

There certainly are positive things about this country. I don't want to settle for just being better than...whatever country. How many people are satisfied with mediocrity for this basketball team? People want excellence I want that for our country too. Are there countries better than us? Why?

Here is maybe a bit of a different perspective...last week I was at an event and heard a patriotic song and honestly my reaction after recently reading quite a bit of history of our country and knowing personal stories about what people still go through today...singing about freedom did ring a little hollow. Is there a chance to fight in some way for freedom now? Is fighting oppression patriotic?

Monster - I agree we have plenty of problems in this Country and that we should always strive to be better as a nation. Racism towards African Americans is a particularly disturbing manifestation of this Country's imperfections and it ties back to this Country's shameful legacy of slavery. But I was just reacting to what I see as a pervasive lack of perspective and a surplus of hyperbole in today's public political discourse. And it's prevalent on both ends of the political spectrum - from those on the right equating mask mandates during dangerous pandemic to naziism to those on the left who want to take down statues of George Washington and find shame in taking pride in a Country that people risk their lives to enter.

Agreed. I would only add that sometimes I've seen people basically use the idea that an issue where someone goes REALLY far means the issue isn't even worth discussing. I'm not suggesting that's what you were trying to do with what you posted. If someone feels REALLY strongly about something I wish we were better at being able to engage but I don't think we have been taught how to have true dialog in this country.

Good point, Monster. There's a tendency these days to shut down debate when we hear something we disagree with. But all of us have an obligation to temper our feelings with facts, understanding and some perspective. If we don't, we'll never have the open productive debate we need today.

monsterpile wrote:A few weeks ago I participated in https://www.coursera.org/learn/police-brutality-in-america-teach-out. Not everyone will agree with everything in it but there was some real practical information and examples that seemed quite worthwhile. One of the segments was speaking about journalism. I can't remember which of the segments it was but the video had a journalist talking about how there are functional ways they are trying to get a more balanced way of getting info about situations. In the past journalists tended to get the information from law enforcement and that was the primary source and then they worked from there. IN some situations that may not be in the best interest of reporting what actually happened.

I have plenty of distrust of the media. I also think we need to consider that the work much of the media is difficult. there has never been more information than there is now. Revenue streams are not always what they were. Watching the local Mayor's press conference some of the questions the media ask can be bizarre but they say they are often asking the questions they are getting at a high rate from people that want to know those answers. There is a balance between reporting news that you think is the most important and also asking the questions and giving answers to propel that you are getting your information to. this is before any biases the individual may have or their culture of the media outlet or any outside influences etc etc etc etc. I don't have a go to news media outlet. Sometimes I'll go to an outlet I generally don't trust to see what their take on an event to get a different perspective. Silence on a topic can be telling. Some in the media to me have clearly sold themselves out to money. Some are likely sold out to an agenda. Some are caught up in themselves. I'd guess there are many in various media types that are actually trying to do their jobs getting pretty good info out there. Keep in mind even if Media person wants to get the truth often its not something someone wants it to get out so they get misinformation. Lets be honest in saying that the Media have a difficult job. They should be criticized when they get it wrong (they absolutely should) but its not easy.

I think just saying its the media its the media!!! is too easy. it can absolve people from really searching for the truth and leads to apathy. I've certainly been there. Its also worth mentioning that there should also be a acknowledgement that being wrong shouldn't be such a horrible thing. I'm rereading "On Being Wrong: Adventures int he Margin of Error" and Chapter 2 starts out talking about a mistake a journalist made. Making a mistake will happen. Its human. I think there should be a difference between a mistake and misinformation. If people make a mistake and correct it that's one thing...but obviously you can't just print whatever and go back and fix it later.

I think I'm following most of this. A couple of thoughts:

1. The media relies on sources. (Supposedly, multiple sources when possible.) So what if those sources are wrong or less than genuine. For example, pre-smartphone era, the media could have run with the George Floyd police report. They might have included something from the bystanders. I think it's safe to say that we probably never hear about George Floyd in 1983.

2. Speaking of police and the media. We see it all the time... There's a crime and the suspect is on the loose. And the description given in the newspaper or tv is "6'0" suspect in green jacket and a hat."

Ummmm... it's fairly easy to change clothes, right? Oddly, the race of the criminal is not included. I get the sensitivity about race. But that's a HUGE identifier when seeking a suspect, right? It annoys me. I've always assumed it's the newspaper playing PC. Is that the case... or is that what they're given by police?

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

monsterpile wrote:A few weeks ago I participated in https://www.coursera.org/learn/police-brutality-in-america-teach-out. Not everyone will agree with everything in it but there was some real practical information and examples that seemed quite worthwhile. One of the segments was speaking about journalism. I can't remember which of the segments it was but the video had a journalist talking about how there are functional ways they are trying to get a more balanced way of getting info about situations. In the past journalists tended to get the information from law enforcement and that was the primary source and then they worked from there. IN some situations that may not be in the best interest of reporting what actually happened.

I have plenty of distrust of the media. I also think we need to consider that the work much of the media is difficult. there has never been more information than there is now. Revenue streams are not always what they were. Watching the local Mayor's press conference some of the questions the media ask can be bizarre but they say they are often asking the questions they are getting at a high rate from people that want to know those answers. There is a balance between reporting news that you think is the most important and also asking the questions and giving answers to propel that you are getting your information to. this is before any biases the individual may have or their culture of the media outlet or any outside influences etc etc etc etc. I don't have a go to news media outlet. Sometimes I'll go to an outlet I generally don't trust to see what their take on an event to get a different perspective. Silence on a topic can be telling. Some in the media to me have clearly sold themselves out to money. Some are likely sold out to an agenda. Some are caught up in themselves. I'd guess there are many in various media types that are actually trying to do their jobs getting pretty good info out there. Keep in mind even if Media person wants to get the truth often its not something someone wants it to get out so they get misinformation. Lets be honest in saying that the Media have a difficult job. They should be criticized when they get it wrong (they absolutely should) but its not easy.

I think just saying its the media its the media!!! is too easy. it can absolve people from really searching for the truth and leads to apathy. I've certainly been there. Its also worth mentioning that there should also be a acknowledgement that being wrong shouldn't be such a horrible thing. I'm rereading "On Being Wrong: Adventures int he Margin of Error" and Chapter 2 starts out talking about a mistake a journalist made. Making a mistake will happen. Its human. I think there should be a difference between a mistake and misinformation. If people make a mistake and correct it that's one thing...but obviously you can't just print whatever and go back and fix it later.

I think I'm following most of this. A couple of thoughts:

1. The media relies on sources. (Supposedly, multiple sources when possible.) So what if those sources are wrong or less than genuine. For example, pre-smartphone era, the media could have run with the George Floyd police report. They might have included something from the bystanders. I think it's safe to say that we probably never hear about George Floyd in 1983.

2. Speaking of police and the media. We see it all the time... There's a crime and the suspect is on the loose. And the description given in the newspaper or tv is "6'0" suspect in green jacket and a hat."

Ummmm... it's fairly easy to change clothes, right? Oddly, the race of the criminal is not included. I get the sensitivity about race. But that's a HUGE identifier when seeking a suspect, right? It annoys me. I've always assumed it's the newspaper playing PC. Is that the case... or is that what they're given by police?

FWIW Around here race is an identifier when they name a suspect on the loose. You would think it would be easy to change clothes but apparently many don't do that. I've been paying closer attention to some of these things lately and some people seem to Just keep rolling living their life after committing a crime. It's good for justice in those cases assuming they got the right person. It's also possible In your theoretical example that if the person had a hat and a green jacket...the witness never saw enough of the person to say what race they were or were not confident in what they saw. Maybe it was the witness that simply was not going to disclose the race not law enforcement. I'd be curious to know if various people In various areas have seen race/ethnic identifiers not used in these types of examples.

Monster I am not knocking BLM for their stance, but at the same time it is a myopic view of the over Justice System problem. Problem isn't even a strong enough word... disaster, incarnation, abomination, IDK, lol

The Justice System doesn't ONLY unfairly attack blacks or minorities. That is all I am getting at. Be INCLUSIVE not EXCLUSIVE. Make the pie bigger to include more people and really make REAL CHANGES.

WolvesFan21 wrote:
Make the pie bigger to include more people and really make REAL CHANGES.

Doesn't Amazon sell oversized pie tins?

WolvesFan21 wrote:Monster I am not knocking BLM for their stance, but at the same time it is a myopic view of the over Justice System problem. Problem isn't even a strong enough word... disaster, incarnation, abomination, IDK, lol

The Justice System doesn't ONLY unfairly attack blacks or minorities. That is all I am getting at. Be INCLUSIVE not EXCLUSIVE. Make the pie bigger to include more people and really make REAL CHANGES.

Are you sure they are ONLY saying it unfairly treats blacks and other minorities and that's the ONLY people they hope to help with changes? I think they are looking at real changes that would Actually aim to uplift everyone. It kinda reminds me of Universal design how it's an accommodation for people with disabilities but it often benefits everyone.