What would your offseason moves have been?

[Monster]

Monster - I didn't see the report about us offering CJ $10 million per year. That's too much in my view. I don't think he's getting that much from Toronto. If the cost of getting CJ would have been $10 million per year, I'd have passed on him as well. Watching guys like Patterson, Ilyasova and Teodosic sign for less than $7 million per year suggests that the Wolves were offering more than market value for the guys they wanted.

I wonder if it is a better strategy when you are under the cap to wait it out. See who is left and then be able to offer about 3M a year for 3 guys rather than pay one bench guy 10M. a

That's my thinking, Bleed. Unless there's a really key player available for a bargain price that you can't pass on. Otherwise, the way free agency has unfolded this summer, it seems clear that there's a lot of merit to waiting and getting decent bench role players for bargain prices. As an example, I thought Luc at the vet minimum was a great deal for the Rockets. Even earlier this summer we had very good role players like Patterson signing for $6.5 million. Then there were Teo, Ilyasova, Dedmon and others who were signed in the $6-7 million per year range. I believe Tyrke Evans signed for about $3.5 million per year. And most of these guys were signed to 1-2 year deals. So against that backdrop I don't think it makes sense in this market to pay $10 million plus for a role player. There are some exceptions, I think. For example, I think the Bucks did well shelling out $11 million per year to Tony Snell given his two-way play and youth (mid 20s). But for guys like Taj and CJ Miles, I'd say no. Both strike me as $7 million per year players in today's market.

It's worth remembering some of the guys that signed those cheaper deals signed for that much because that is all those teams had to offer. Patterson signed with OKC for the exception they had. Miles took a bit less than the full midlevel because the Raptors wanted to try and stay under the tax. Sometimes I think teams that actually have the cap space end up with little leverage to get guys for cheaper deals.

This isn't the NFL where scheme matters as much but I'm sure every team has a list of guys they think fit their culture scheme or fit with players they have better than others. For example Tyreke Evans for the price Memphis got him was great. Here he would have been nice but his shooting is suspect and so the fit may not have been great. Memphis can use a guy that can do something off the dribble. Thibs clearly values Taj more than just a role player. If that's the evaluation (whether you agree with the evaluation or not) I think that process can be respected. To me there are some parallels of Thibs brining in Taj to when Flip brought in KG. Of course Thibs didn't give up a long term asset to get Taj (used cap space) and Taj can clearly still play as well. It remains to be seen how this all works out.

It's a bit crazy how some guys seem to just be calling around looking for work for the vet min and a year ago they may have been getting decent multiyear deals. If we end up with 2 guys we would have been willing to give say 5 million or so a few weeks ago then the Wolves will have success. With so few guys signed they are going to start looking like a team were even if Butler and Wiggins play a ton of minutes there could still be a decent role for one more backup wing.

[MikkeMan]

In general I have liked what Thibs has done this offseason. Obviously Butler deal was the best move but I'm OK with Rubio deal and free agent signings Teague and Gibson. I like especially that Gibson wasn't signed for longer contract since now Wolves have possibility to reload their roster during summer 2019, since they should have only Wiggins, Towns, Dieng and Teague under contract. If they will be lucky and/or good enough in 2018-19 season, they might even be able to convince Teague to opt out and sign smaller but longer new contract so that they can possibly try to get starting power forward replacement for Gibson. Taj will be 33 at that point and it would be possible that they could get him back as vet min guy from bench if team will be good enough to be title contender.

Signing Crawford was little surprise also for me but Thibs has had no defense instant offense guys from bench also in past. D.J. Augustin, Belinelli and Nate Robinson all are high usage bench guys that are not known from their defense and they still got to play plenty of minutes under Thibs. Augustin and Robinson even might have played their best seasons with Thibs as their coach. I think Thibs might see Crawford to have similar but hopefully smaller role for Wolves next year team.

Personally I might have tried to go little different route. I would have tried to make trades to collect assets while making trades to add suitable pieces for team.

I would have made for sure Butler trade and probably also traded Rubio but I wouldn't have signed Teague and Gibson. I would have tried to trade for package of DeMarre Carroll and Cory Joseph. Brooklyn got Carroll, 1st round pick and 2nd round pick in exchange for Justin Hamilton. Hamilton had guaranteed deal worth of 3 million 2017-18 left from his contract. So I assume they would have been preferred non-guaranteed deal of Jordan Hill instead of. Joseph was traded for Emir Preldzic. I think Preldzik is not coming NBA ever, so they basically just gave Joseph away. I'¨m sure they would have preferred to have Jordan Hill for Carroll, Joseph and 1st round pick instead of the deals they made.

Carroll has two years worth of 30 million left from his current deal. So I would have basically spend the money that was given to Gibson to Carroll who is legit 3&D wing that can play some small ball PF as well. Joseph has two years with less than 8 million per year left from his current deal and he would have been serviceable point guard for us. That deal instead of signing Gibson and Teague would have saved 10 million cap space that I would have used to sign Amir Johnson. I would have offered two years 10 million per year contract for him. I think he might have taken that instead of one year 11 million contract from Philly. He would have given Wolves pretty similar player that Taj is with lower price.

[Hicks123 [enjin:6700838]]

I know there are concerns with guys like Taj and Crawford, and I completely understand the rationale behind these concerns. BUT, and this is a big one to me, it is CRITICAL to our team performance this coming year that this group be cohesive in order to compete. Guys like Crawford and Taj are grizzled vets that completely understand their roles on this team, and will fit in from day 1. When you have as many young, new and moving parts as the Wolves, these types of guys are essential for team success.

I think we probably could have gotten some of the other guys many talk about here, but I think "fit" was a primary concern for Thibs with some of these guys. Taj and Crawford specifically are very smart players that will instantly stabalize some critical things on this team. Taj will add smart defense and Crawford will add a level of consistent play off the bench that has been lacking in years past.

I am extremely happy with these signings for those reasons. I am still hopeful we will get an additional 3pt shooting type to fill out our bench, but overall, I believe Thibs gets an "A".

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Hicks makes a valid point about the secondary benefit of adding Taj and Crawford. I'm a big chemistry fan, and agree that these two guys are terrific clubhouse guys. I may not love their stats, but they are considered great teammates, and combined with Gorgui, they may provide a cohesion in a supporting role that will allow our three stars to reach their potential. I'm still not a fan of the post-Butler moves that Thibs made, but I'm keeping an open mind for the reasons that Hicks stated.

[kekgeek]

In general I have liked what Thibs has done this offseason. Obviously Butler deal was the best move but I'm OK with Rubio deal and free agent signings Teague and Gibson. I like especially that Gibson wasn't signed for longer contract since now Wolves have possibility to reload their roster during summer 2019, since they should have only Wiggins, Towns, Dieng and Teague under contract. If they will be lucky and/or good enough in 2018-19 season, they might even be able to convince Teague to opt out and sign smaller but longer new contract so that they can possibly try to get starting power forward replacement for Gibson. Taj will be 33 at that point and it would be possible that they could get him back as vet min guy from bench if team will be good enough to be title contender.

Signing Crawford was little surprise also for me but Thibs has had no defense instant offense guys from bench also in past. D.J. Augustin, Belinelli and Nate Robinson all are high usage bench guys that are not known from their defense and they still got to play plenty of minutes under Thibs. Augustin and Robinson even might have played their best seasons with Thibs as their coach. I think Thibs might see Crawford to have similar but hopefully smaller role for Wolves next year team.

Personally I might have tried to go little different route. I would have tried to make trades to collect assets while making trades to add suitable pieces for team.

I would have made for sure Butler trade and probably also traded Rubio but I wouldn't have signed Teague and Gibson. I would have tried to trade for package of DeMarre Carroll and Cory Joseph. Brooklyn got Carroll, 1st round pick and 2nd round pick in exchange for Justin Hamilton. Hamilton had guaranteed deal worth of 3 million 2017-18 left from his contract. So I assume they would have been preferred non-guaranteed deal of Jordan Hill instead of. Joseph was traded for Emir Preldzic. I think Preldzik is not coming NBA ever, so they basically just gave Joseph away. I'¨m sure they would have preferred to have Jordan Hill for Carroll, Joseph and 1st round pick instead of the deals they made.

Carroll has two years worth of 30 million left from his current deal. So I would have basically spend the money that was given to Gibson to Carroll who is legit 3&D wing that can play some small ball PF as well. Joseph has two years with less than 8 million per year left from his current deal and he would have been serviceable point guard for us. That deal instead of signing Gibson and Teague would have saved 10 million cap space that I would have used to sign Amir Johnson. I would have offered two years 10 million per year contract for him. I think he might have taken that instead of one year 11 million contract from Philly. He would have given Wolves pretty similar player that Taj is with lower price.

If you can (you don't have to, no pressure honestly), can you explain how cap holds numbers are determined. I understand the concept of them but not how they are decided on the cap hold.

For example you mention the 2019 offseason where everyone comes off the books. In that season Towns and tyus is technically a RFA if we don't extend them during the season. (So what are there cap holds). Butler also a free agent (what will his cap hold be).

In that offseason there is a chance that wiggins and Gorgui and Patton are the only 3 players that are officially signed the dotted line. So how much cap space is taken up with cap holds in tyus, towns, Butler, taj, Crawford, Belly, cole.

Could we go get Kyrie who is also a free agent that offseason then sign butler, towns etc.. over the cap because of bird rights or will the cap holds be to big to acquire a big name/quality free agent

[60WinTim]

Well said, Hicks. Well said.

I will also add this: We need to fill out our "reserves", which hopefully includes a reasonable 3-point shooter who can fight for a spot in the rotation, or at least add a spark when needed. But Thibs is traditionally a 9-man rotation guy. And it sure looks like he has his 9 guys:

Starters - Teague, Wiggins, Butler, Taj and Towns.
Bench - Tyus, Crawford, Belly, Dieng.

Thibs spent his wad on his rotation. Now he will use vet minimum deals to add his reserves.

[Monster]

In general I have liked what Thibs has done this offseason. Obviously Butler deal was the best move but I'm OK with Rubio deal and free agent signings Teague and Gibson. I like especially that Gibson wasn't signed for longer contract since now Wolves have possibility to reload their roster during summer 2019, since they should have only Wiggins, Towns, Dieng and Teague under contract. If they will be lucky and/or good enough in 2018-19 season, they might even be able to convince Teague to opt out and sign smaller but longer new contract so that they can possibly try to get starting power forward replacement for Gibson. Taj will be 33 at that point and it would be possible that they could get him back as vet min guy from bench if team will be good enough to be title contender.

Signing Crawford was little surprise also for me but Thibs has had no defense instant offense guys from bench also in past. D.J. Augustin, Belinelli and Nate Robinson all are high usage bench guys that are not known from their defense and they still got to play plenty of minutes under Thibs. Augustin and Robinson even might have played their best seasons with Thibs as their coach. I think Thibs might see Crawford to have similar but hopefully smaller role for Wolves next year team.

Personally I might have tried to go little different route. I would have tried to make trades to collect assets while making trades to add suitable pieces for team.

I would have made for sure Butler trade and probably also traded Rubio but I wouldn't have signed Teague and Gibson. I would have tried to trade for package of DeMarre Carroll and Cory Joseph. Brooklyn got Carroll, 1st round pick and 2nd round pick in exchange for Justin Hamilton. Hamilton had guaranteed deal worth of 3 million 2017-18 left from his contract. So I assume they would have been preferred non-guaranteed deal of Jordan Hill instead of. Joseph was traded for Emir Preldzic. I think Preldzik is not coming NBA ever, so they basically just gave Joseph away. I'¨m sure they would have preferred to have Jordan Hill for Carroll, Joseph and 1st round pick instead of the deals they made.

Carroll has two years worth of 30 million left from his current deal. So I would have basically spend the money that was given to Gibson to Carroll who is legit 3&D wing that can play some small ball PF as well. Joseph has two years with less than 8 million per year left from his current deal and he would have been serviceable point guard for us. That deal instead of signing Gibson and Teague would have saved 10 million cap space that I would have used to sign Amir Johnson. I would have offered two years 10 million per year contract for him. I think he might have taken that instead of one year 11 million contract from Philly. He would have given Wolves pretty similar player that Taj is with lower price.

If you can (you don't have to, no pressure honestly), can you explain how cap holds numbers are determined. I understand the concept of them but not how they are decided on the cap hold.

For example you mention the 2019 offseason where everyone comes off the books. In that season Towns and tyus is technically a RFA if we don't extend them during the season. (So what are there cap holds). Butler also a free agent (what will his cap hold be).

In that offseason there is a chance that wiggins and Gorgui and Patton are the only 3 players that are officially signed the dotted line. So how much cap space is taken up with cap holds in tyus, towns, Butler, taj, Crawford, Belly, cole.

Could we go get Kyrie who is also a free agent that offseason then sign butler, towns etc.. over the cap because of bird rights or will the cap holds be to big to acquire a big name/quality free agent

Cap holds are tricky/complicated and based on various calculations which I don't understand and even if I did would likely be difficult to explain. The general rule is that they are going to be around what a team is likely going to pay for that player to resign them. Remember there is a roster charge even for wide open roster spots up to 12 NBA spots so the cap holds for FAs are just like that. So anyway you can make some decent general assumptions about what a cap hold is going to be for various players based on their previous contract, their role on the team etc. Butler and Teague are obviously going to have pretty sizable cap holds if they opt out and so would Taj. Someone like Tyus would be less or some guy we signed for the vet min etc.

I generally like the direction that Mikkeman went in his plan. I'd be a bit worried about Carroll being an effective player and Joseph's 3 point shooting. I also think I would want to get Amir much cheaper because I think the Sixers overpaid him for 1 year if we were going with this patient approach I would hope to get 2 similar level players for that money.

[MikkeMan]

I generally like the direction that Mikkeman went in his plan. I'd be a bit worried about Carroll being an effective player and Joseph's 3 point shooting. I also think I would want to get Amir much cheaper because I think the Sixers overpaid him for 1 year if we were going with this patient approach I would hope to get 2 similar level players for that money.

Monster, if you think that 11 million for one year was overpaying in case of Amir, then two years and 28 millions was horrible overpaying in case of Taj. Both players are really close to each other in terms of their skill set with defense as their most impressive skill. Both have even played last couple of years in about same level teams in East. Amir's Toronto and Boston have been little better than Chicago was during last four years. Amir is little younger and has been more effective as scorer but hasn't had as high usage than Taj in last years. Based on all advanced stats, Amir Johnson would be the better player of those two.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Amir+Johnson&player_id1_select=Amir+Johnson&player_id1=johnsam01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Taj+Gibson&player_id2_select=Taj+Gibson&player_id2=gibsota01&Amir vs Taj

Joseph has not been very good three point shooter in terms of 3P% and volume but he has been much better in catch and shoot three pointers versus pull ups. Last season he shot almost 40% in catch and shoot three pointers and year before he shot 35%. So he would have been capable to play off the ball when Butler would have been handling the ball.

Carroll hasn't been that effective in his last couple of years in Toronto but in general if you compare his stats to those 3&D wings that were free agent this summer (Snell, Tucker, Ingles, Sefolosha) or available with trade (Deng), only Ingles had better advanced stats last year and it is easy to argue that he was the worst defender of that group. Other options might have been cheaper (Tucker and especially Sefolosha) but I would have preferred Carroll over them because he has enough size to play small ball PF. Carroll had also highest volume of three point attempts from that group. He would have been overpaid unless he would have bounced back to same level that he was in Atlanta but getting couple of assets (1st round pick and Joseph), would have nicely compensated that.

Comparison in Basketball-Reference:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=DeMarre+Carroll&player_id1_select=DeMarre+Carroll&player_id1=carrode01&y1=2017&player_id2_hint=P.J.+Tucker&player_id2_select=P.J.+Tucker&player_id2=tuckepj01&y2=2017&player_id3_hint=Tony+Snell&player_id3_select=Tony+Snell&player_id3=snellto01&y3=2017&player_id4_hint=Joe+Ingles&player_id4_select=Joe+Ingles&player_id4=inglejo01&y4=2017&player_id5_hint=Luol+Deng&player_id5_select=Luol+Deng&player_id5=denglu01&idx=players&y5=2017&player_id6_hint=Thabo+Sefolosha&player_id6_select=Thabo+Sefolosha&player_id6=sefolth01&y6=2017

[Monster]

I generally like the direction that Mikkeman went in his plan. I'd be a bit worried about Carroll being an effective player and Joseph's 3 point shooting. I also think I would want to get Amir much cheaper because I think the Sixers overpaid him for 1 year if we were going with this patient approach I would hope to get 2 similar level players for that money.

Monster, if you think that 11 million for one year was overpaying in case of Amir, then two years and 28 millions was horrible overpaying in case of Taj. Both players are really close to each other in terms of their skill set with defense as their most impressive skill. Both have even played last couple of years in about same level teams in East. Amir's Toronto and Boston have been little better than Chicago was during last four years. Amir is little younger and has been more effective as scorer but hasn't had as high usage than Taj in last years. Based on all advanced stats, Amir Johnson would be the better player of those two.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Amir+Johnson&player_id1_select=Amir+Johnson&player_id1=johnsam01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Taj+Gibson&player_id2_select=Taj+Gibson&player_id2=gibsota01&Amir vs Taj

Joseph has not been very good three point shooter in terms of 3P% and volume but he has been much better in catch and shoot three pointers versus pull ups. Last season he shot almost 40% in catch and shoot three pointers and year before he shot 35%. So he would have been capable to play off the ball when Butler would have been handling the ball.

Carroll hasn't been that effective in his last couple of years in Toronto but in general if you compare his stats to those 3&D wings that were free agent this summer (Snell, Tucker, Ingles, Sefolosha) or available with trade (Deng), only Ingles had better advanced stats last year and it is easy to argue that he was the worst defender of that group. Other options might have been cheaper (Tucker and especially Sefolosha) but I would have preferred Carroll over them because he has enough size to play small ball PF. Carroll had also highest volume of three point attempts from that group. He would have been overpaid unless he would have bounced back to same level that he was in Atlanta but getting couple of assets (1st round pick and Joseph), would have nicely compensated that.

Comparison in Basketball-Reference:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=DeMarre+Carroll&player_id1_select=DeMarre+Carroll&player_id1=carrode01&y1=2017&player_id2_hint=P.J.+Tucker&player_id2_select=P.J.+Tucker&player_id2=tuckepj01&y2=2017&player_id3_hint=Tony+Snell&player_id3_select=Tony+Snell&player_id3=snellto01&y3=2017&player_id4_hint=Joe+Ingles&player_id4_select=Joe+Ingles&player_id4=inglejo01&y4=2017&player_id5_hint=Luol+Deng&player_id5_select=Luol+Deng&player_id5=denglu01&idx=players&y5=2017&player_id6_hint=Thabo+Sefolosha&player_id6_select=Thabo+Sefolosha&player_id6=sefolth01&y6=2017

Good post. The problem with Amir is he is really more of a C in this NBA and Taj I think is much better defensively switching and playing more perimeter oriented guys. That's based on my general eye test which could be wrong. I've always been a fan of Amir so it's not like so think he sucks. I think in a similar vein to paying Taj I wonder what the Sixers could have done with that money so maybe one a 1 year deal saying they overpaid is a bit harsh. They could have gone after KCP. I do think Amir is a nice depth player to give them a somewhat versatile big guy that knows what he is supposed to do and plays defense. It's possible that team reallly takes off this year and then suddenly they are a really good team with a bunch of cap space available next offseason.

[Lipoli390]

I'd take Amir at $11 million for one year over Taj at $28 million. I'd like to have the additional $3 million in cap space right now, which would allow us to pay more than the vet minimum to out-compete some other teams for the remaining free agents.

But honestly, I wouldn't have signed either one for those amounts. There are a number of things I would have rather done with the $14 million cap space we used on Taj. I won't repeat all the scenarios I've mentioned before. Signing CJ Miles was one, which would have left us significant money to spend on another quality free agent. We could have also kept our cap hold on Bazz, in which case it's likely we would have been able to retain him.

The good news is that having Taj makes us significantly better up front than we were last season. KAT, Gorgui, Taj and Belly give us a nice foursome for our two big-man positions with Belly able to play some SF as well. I just think we'd be better overall if we had spend the Taj money differently.