Minnesota Sports Forum

I like the fact JRich has averaged 4 assists per game, a dimension that he's been improving upon every year. And again....he's locked into a $10M per year contract for the next three seasons. He's no franchise player, nor is he paid like one!

Duke13 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:I'm sensing that the desire to unload Butler is causing some people to overvalue players we might get back in return. Josh Richardson is a prime example. Someone coming in cold to this board might think of JRich as the second coming of LeBron after his first two games based on the desire here to exchange Butler for him. In reality, he shot 38% in those 2 games and dribbled the ball off his foot out of bounds in the final seconds of the Orlando game to cost them the win. If Wig shot 38% in his first two games and turned the ball over with a chance to win the game, we'd be running him out of town!

Or we could just go by your assessment, compare both Porter and Richardson's stats against each other, and because Porter has averaged 2 more rebounds a game during their 4 year careers, then conclude Porter is the superior player. SMH.

Well, of course that wasn't the conclusion I was making. I pointed out Richardson's poor rebounding stats only to make the point that we already malign Wig for being a poor rebounder, and wondering whether we can put an even worse rebounder next to him.

It's all the other stats that make me conclude Porter is a better basketball player than JRich (along with I suspect 95% of the NBA analysts out there). They are the same age, so it seems appropriate to compare their most recent season. Porter averaged .9 assists fewer than Richardson last year, but was better than him on any other measure you want to throw out there. I agree that Richardson is paid less than Porter and thus would be more cap friendly. But there is a reason he has a better contract than Porter, and that reason is that he isn't as good a basketball player. Replacing Butler with Richardson and Waiter's bad contract would be a disastrous move.

longstrangetrip wrote:

Duke13 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:I'm sensing that the desire to unload Butler is causing some people to overvalue players we might get back in return. Josh Richardson is a prime example. Someone coming in cold to this board might think of JRich as the second coming of LeBron after his first two games based on the desire here to exchange Butler for him. In reality, he shot 38% in those 2 games and dribbled the ball off his foot out of bounds in the final seconds of the Orlando game to cost them the win. If Wig shot 38% in his first two games and turned the ball over with a chance to win the game, we'd be running him out of town!

Or we could just go by your assessment, compare both Porter and Richardson's stats against each other, and because Porter has averaged 2 more rebounds a game during their 4 year careers, then conclude Porter is the superior player. SMH.

Well, of course that wasn't the conclusion I was making. I pointed out Richardson's poor rebounding stats only to make the point that we already malign Wig for being a poor rebounder, and wondering whether we can put an even worse rebounder next to him.

It's all the other stats that make me conclude Porter is a better basketball player than JRich (along with I suspect 95% of the NBA analysts out there). They are the same age, so it seems appropriate to compare their most recent season. Porter averaged .9 assists fewer than Richardson last year, but was better than him on any other measure you want to throw out there. I agree that Richardson is paid less than Porter and thus would be more cap friendly. But there is a reason he has a better contract than Porter, and that reason is that he isn't as good a basketball player. Replacing Butler with Richardson and Waiter's bad contract would be a disastrous move.

LST - I disagree that dealing Butler for Richardson, Waiters and Miami's 2019 first round pick would have been "disastrous." The only downside to that deal would have been Waiters' contract. But there would still be various potential opportunities to avoid the luxury tax. Teague could opt out next summer. Or we could use that extra pick from Miami to move Gorgui for an expiring or shorter term contract (I don't believe it would take two 1st round picks to move Gorgui). What will be disastrous will be watching Butler walk away next summer as a free agent with nothing flowing back to the Wolves in return. Another near disaster would be dealing Butler to Houston for Eric Gordon and Tucker - a pathetic short-term deal if it were to happen. So maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Let's see more than 1 or 2 games before making any hard and fast conclusions about some of these guys that are less proven. There are players and teams every year that look very good for the first 10 or whatever games and then come down.

lipoli390 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

Duke13 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:I'm sensing that the desire to unload Butler is causing some people to overvalue players we might get back in return. Josh Richardson is a prime example. Someone coming in cold to this board might think of JRich as the second coming of LeBron after his first two games based on the desire here to exchange Butler for him. In reality, he shot 38% in those 2 games and dribbled the ball off his foot out of bounds in the final seconds of the Orlando game to cost them the win. If Wig shot 38% in his first two games and turned the ball over with a chance to win the game, we'd be running him out of town!

Or we could just go by your assessment, compare both Porter and Richardson's stats against each other, and because Porter has averaged 2 more rebounds a game during their 4 year careers, then conclude Porter is the superior player. SMH.

Well, of course that wasn't the conclusion I was making. I pointed out Richardson's poor rebounding stats only to make the point that we already malign Wig for being a poor rebounder, and wondering whether we can put an even worse rebounder next to him.

It's all the other stats that make me conclude Porter is a better basketball player than JRich (along with I suspect 95% of the NBA analysts out there). They are the same age, so it seems appropriate to compare their most recent season. Porter averaged .9 assists fewer than Richardson last year, but was better than him on any other measure you want to throw out there. I agree that Richardson is paid less than Porter and thus would be more cap friendly. But there is a reason he has a better contract than Porter, and that reason is that he isn't as good a basketball player. Replacing Butler with Richardson and Waiter's bad contract would be a disastrous move.

LST - I disagree that dealing Butler for Richardson, Waiters and Miami's 2019 first round pick would have been "disastrous." The only downside to that deal would have been Waiters' contract. But there would still be various potential opportunities to avoid the luxury tax. Teague could opt out next summer. Or we could use that extra pick from Miami to move Gorgui for an expiring or shorter term contract (I don't believe it would take two 1st round picks to move Gorgui). What will be disastrous will be watching Butler walk away next summer as a free agent with nothing flowing back to the Wolves in return. Another near disaster would be dealing Butler to Houston for Eric Gordon and Tucker - a pathetic short-term deal if it were to happen. So maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Lip, like you I am considering not renewing my tickets next season, and my season tickets go back as far as the Dome days (in fact, I'm asking my season ticket partner to take more of my seats this year, but he's balking). It would be disastrous to me if the starting lineup my final season was KAT/Taj/Wig/JRich/Teague, because I see that team winning about 35 games. If Richardson and Olynyk is the best offer out there, I would prefer to go through the season with Butler as our starting wing...I think we would at least be competitive with that lineup and our new reserves, and that's all I'm looking for this season. Long term, I think the prospects are rather bleak if Butler walks or Thibs accepts a substandard deal.

longstrangetrip wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

Duke13 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:I'm sensing that the desire to unload Butler is causing some people to overvalue players we might get back in return. Josh Richardson is a prime example. Someone coming in cold to this board might think of JRich as the second coming of LeBron after his first two games based on the desire here to exchange Butler for him. In reality, he shot 38% in those 2 games and dribbled the ball off his foot out of bounds in the final seconds of the Orlando game to cost them the win. If Wig shot 38% in his first two games and turned the ball over with a chance to win the game, we'd be running him out of town!

Or we could just go by your assessment, compare both Porter and Richardson's stats against each other, and because Porter has averaged 2 more rebounds a game during their 4 year careers, then conclude Porter is the superior player. SMH.

Well, of course that wasn't the conclusion I was making. I pointed out Richardson's poor rebounding stats only to make the point that we already malign Wig for being a poor rebounder, and wondering whether we can put an even worse rebounder next to him.

It's all the other stats that make me conclude Porter is a better basketball player than JRich (along with I suspect 95% of the NBA analysts out there). They are the same age, so it seems appropriate to compare their most recent season. Porter averaged .9 assists fewer than Richardson last year, but was better than him on any other measure you want to throw out there. I agree that Richardson is paid less than Porter and thus would be more cap friendly. But there is a reason he has a better contract than Porter, and that reason is that he isn't as good a basketball player. Replacing Butler with Richardson and Waiter's bad contract would be a disastrous move.

LST - I disagree that dealing Butler for Richardson, Waiters and Miami's 2019 first round pick would have been "disastrous." The only downside to that deal would have been Waiters' contract. But there would still be various potential opportunities to avoid the luxury tax. Teague could opt out next summer. Or we could use that extra pick from Miami to move Gorgui for an expiring or shorter term contract (I don't believe it would take two 1st round picks to move Gorgui). What will be disastrous will be watching Butler walk away next summer as a free agent with nothing flowing back to the Wolves in return. Another near disaster would be dealing Butler to Houston for Eric Gordon and Tucker - a pathetic short-term deal if it were to happen. So maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Lip, like you I am considering not renewing my tickets next season, and my season tickets go back as far as the Dome days (in fact, I'm asking my season ticket partner to take more of my seats this year, but he's balking). It would be disastrous to me if the starting lineup my final season was KAT/Taj/Wig/JRich/Teague, because I see that team winning about 35 games. If Richardson and Olynyk is the best offer out there, I would prefer to go through the season with Butler as our starting wing...I think we would at least be competitive with that lineup and our new reserves, and that's all I'm looking for this season. Long term, I think the prospects are rather bleak if Butler walks or Thibs accepts a substandard deal.

LST -- Sounds like you and Thibodeau are in similar positions with similar mindsets in the both you and he aren't looking beyond this season. :) In that sense, I can understand both of you preferring to keep Butler. But I'm still in for the long haul and I don't see that keeping Butler over trading for the likes of Richardson and Olynyk serves the long-interests of this franchise.

I'm considering relinquishing my season tickets after this season because I see this team making ridiculous short-term decisions that have no realistic, positive long-term value. So I see myself going to games this season knowing the team's 3 top players don't get along, expecting the team's best player, Butler, to leave at any moment but definitely before next season and wondering how much longer I'll have to continue watching a stubborn troll coach this team into the ground. I advise you to watch some more video or Richardson. Give me Richardson with Olynyk and a 1st round pick in the 20s, combine those assets with KAT, Wiggins, Tyus, Okogie, and KBD, eliminate Thibodeau's oppressive presence from Target Center and ... hope is renewed. Yes, we'd likely miss the playoffs season with 37-42 wins. But at least the horrible negativity associated with Butler and Thibodeau would be gone and it would be possible to actually envision a longer-term path to contention.

I think we just have a different time perspective.

Richardson/Olynyk and a late late first round pick would be a disaster trade to make. That team's only future would be to win the draft lottery or else we would be looking at a perennial 10 seed. I don't care that Richardson has a team friendly deal. If that doesn't result in usable cap space it literally doesn't matter. All it does is enable people to say well he doesn't get paid much so he's not expected to be an all-star when he's just ok and nothing special. Olynyk is a bench big like G signed this year and next and depending on his market could opt in as well in 2020. That means no ability to improve this team outside of the draft or a blockbuster trade for the near future making the only path to a top 4 team being winning the lottery. I have no interest in that rebuild.

Butler is gone after this year, so where does that leave us Khans?? We got one run for a 7/8 seed, and 1st round thrashing just like last year.

Oh thats right, I forgot the silver lining of Kat and Butler having a bad game and we were within 4 points of another 7/8 seed on the road, we are on our way!!

Talent reveals itself in many unexpected ways. Look at Utah. Gobert, Mitchell, and Ingles are probably their three most important players going forward. Where were they each drafted again?

To me part of the process of re-building is throwing as many darts as possible and hoping that something along the way hits. Getting multiple young assets (whether existing players or picks) is key to any Butler deal. One thing we aren't going to get is someone nearly as good as Butler is now. That just isn't happening.

lipoli390 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

Duke13 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:I'm sensing that the desire to unload Butler is causing some people to overvalue players we might get back in return. Josh Richardson is a prime example. Someone coming in cold to this board might think of JRich as the second coming of LeBron after his first two games based on the desire here to exchange Butler for him. In reality, he shot 38% in those 2 games and dribbled the ball off his foot out of bounds in the final seconds of the Orlando game to cost them the win. If Wig shot 38% in his first two games and turned the ball over with a chance to win the game, we'd be running him out of town!

Or we could just go by your assessment, compare both Porter and Richardson's stats against each other, and because Porter has averaged 2 more rebounds a game during their 4 year careers, then conclude Porter is the superior player. SMH.

Well, of course that wasn't the conclusion I was making. I pointed out Richardson's poor rebounding stats only to make the point that we already malign Wig for being a poor rebounder, and wondering whether we can put an even worse rebounder next to him.

It's all the other stats that make me conclude Porter is a better basketball player than JRich (along with I suspect 95% of the NBA analysts out there). They are the same age, so it seems appropriate to compare their most recent season. Porter averaged .9 assists fewer than Richardson last year, but was better than him on any other measure you want to throw out there. I agree that Richardson is paid less than Porter and thus would be more cap friendly. But there is a reason he has a better contract than Porter, and that reason is that he isn't as good a basketball player. Replacing Butler with Richardson and Waiter's bad contract would be a disastrous move.

LST - I disagree that dealing Butler for Richardson, Waiters and Miami's 2019 first round pick would have been "disastrous." The only downside to that deal would have been Waiters' contract. But there would still be various potential opportunities to avoid the luxury tax. Teague could opt out next summer. Or we could use that extra pick from Miami to move Gorgui for an expiring or shorter term contract (I don't believe it would take two 1st round picks to move Gorgui). What will be disastrous will be watching Butler walk away next summer as a free agent with nothing flowing back to the Wolves in return. Another near disaster would be dealing Butler to Houston for Eric Gordon and Tucker - a pathetic short-term deal if it were to happen. So maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Lip, like you I am considering not renewing my tickets next season, and my season tickets go back as far as the Dome days (in fact, I'm asking my season ticket partner to take more of my seats this year, but he's balking). It would be disastrous to me if the starting lineup my final season was KAT/Taj/Wig/JRich/Teague, because I see that team winning about 35 games. If Richardson and Olynyk is the best offer out there, I would prefer to go through the season with Butler as our starting wing...I think we would at least be competitive with that lineup and our new reserves, and that's all I'm looking for this season. Long term, I think the prospects are rather bleak if Butler walks or Thibs accepts a substandard deal.

LST -- Sounds like you and Thibodeau are in similar positions with similar mindsets in the both you and he aren't looking beyond this season. :) In that sense, I can understand both of you preferring to keep Butler. But I'm still in for the long haul and I don't see that keeping Butler over trading for the likes of Richardson and Olynyk serves the long-interests of this franchise.

I'm considering relinquishing my season tickets after this season because I see this team making ridiculous short-term decisions that have no realistic, positive long-term value. So I see myself going to games this season knowing the team's 3 top players don't get along, expecting the team's best player, Butler, to leave at any moment but definitely before next season and wondering how much longer I'll have to continue watching a stubborn troll coach this team into the ground. I advise you to watch some more video or Richardson. Give me Richardson with Olynyk and a 1st round pick in the 20s, combine those assets with KAT, Wiggins, Tyus, Okogie, and KBD, eliminate Thibodeau's oppressive presence from Target Center and ... hope is renewed. Yes, we'd likely miss the playoffs season with 37-42 wins. But at least the horrible negativity associated with Butler and Thibodeau would be gone and it would be possible to actually envision a longer-term path to contention.

I think we just have a different time perspective.

Noooo...those are fighting words!!!!!

I want to have a long-term perspective, but I'm finding it difficult to do. Meanwhile, I kind of enjoyed the opener, and think this team could be pretty good if KAT doesn't play like he did Wednesday (and he won't).

So, there seem to be three possible outcomes here, and I rank them in order of my preference:

1) Thibs resists the poor deals out there, and Butler stays for the season...team wins 52 games and Jimmy elects to stay. I know...unlikely, and cap issues galore with three max players. But that is my first choice.

2) Jimmy stays for the season, but decides to walk at the end of the year. The new POBO finds cap space in addition to the Butler-freed space (Teague, Gorgui, even Wig?) and brings in a top-notch free agent that restores some hope for the franchise. LST changes his mind and re-ups for another season.

3) Thibs relents and makes an unsatisfactory deal (like the ones currently on the table). The team finishes with 35 wins, and seeing no success for this franchise in the near future, LST joins the ranks of ex-season ticket holders.


That's how I see it...I'm probably dreaming.