Thibs is biggest Fraud since Madoff

[Monster]

Let's get one thing straight. Firing a coach after 1 season because it was a bad season is what terrible organizations do. That's some Sacramento Kings shit right there and it shouldn't even be a thought in anyone's head of you ever want this team to get back to respectability.

Maybe, but there was the Les Steckel case.

Bad organizations make poor personnel decisions -- both players and coaches. Good organizations can make bad personnel decisions occasionally, but they quickly recognize and rectify those decisions. It's silly to stick with something that doesn't work because of some theory that changing it would be what losing organizations do. Les Steckel is a good example of moving on quickly from something that clearly didn't work. If we end up with 25-29 wins this season, I'd say that things aren't working under Thibs. If it were me I'd move on. But this is Glen Taylor so I'm sure he'll stay the course. Then as things continue to sputter, he'll make a change a year or two later. That's what losing organizations do. They make bad decisions then stick too long with what doesn't work.

Sticking with a coach for more than 1 season isn't too long. How many guys is Thibs playing that he put on the team? Dunn, Aldrich, Rush. A rookie and two limited bench players. Everybody else that's playing was inherited. It's not his team yet and he deserves more than 1 year to make his team. What makes you think the team will take a leap under a 4th coach in as many years? That'd be wasting another half-season on adjusting to the new coach. Good teams are built on continuity. Something we haven't had for 3 straight years now and won't have if you bring in someone else next year. He has money. He has assets. Let's see what he does this summer and how we do next year and you can fire him then if we are still terrible. Too many people expected plug and play with a bunch of young players. Plug and play only works with tenured players who know how to play basketball correctly. It's pretty obvious our guys have a long ways to go in that category.

Agreed but I will add that it's been 4 straight years of no continuity not 3. Dieng and Bazz have played for a different coach every single NBA season 4 years in a row. Let that sink in. People are frustrated and rightly so but it seems to me Thibs and Layden are not taking shortcuts they are trying to build something here. That can take time. If the Wolves moved on From Thibs after his season only winning 25-29 wins they would be just like the Sacramento Kings and...we don't want to be emulating that franchise anytime soon.

Steph Curry played for three different coaches in his first three years and has had a total of five head coaches. That didn't seem to slow him or the Warriors down too much!

Pretty bad example. Currys 1st three years 26 wins 36 wins and then 23 wins (13 games worse in mark Jackson 1st year) then won 47 in Jackson's second year. Your example gives more weight to the person you are arguing with

Great that worked for GS. Would you say that's an outlier or something you want to be doing?

[Coolbreeze44]

Wile, Not sure if you saw this from the other thread, but performing with grace under pressure wasn't nearly as much of a problem last year with the same starting 5, but a year younger, and an even more unstable bench (Payne, rookie Tyus Jones, rookie Bjelica).

Here are some close wins between February 22 and April 9 - basically a 6-week period of time:
Boston - 124-122
@New Orleans - 112-110
@OKC - 99-96
@Wizards - 132-129 in Double OT
@Golden State - 124-117 in OT
@Portland - 106-105

There were a few other close-ish wins too, but I am only counting the ones decided by 4 or less points or that went to OT.

Why didn't this same cast of characters crumble last year? I get that their defense wasn't very good, but man, they won a good chunk of very tight games against some damn good teams.

Yeah, that and the regression of all of our players except Zach seems to be the biggest indictment of Thibs. He is the POBO and coach, and needs to figure out what has happened to this team to cause them to no longer close out games like they could last year. I have my theory, but it's probably is a number of factors, and Thibs simply has to figure this one out.

Wile's comment about our Big 3 being poor defenders is an indictment of every coach they have played for here. Wig, Zach and KAT were all considered near elite (copyright PJ Fleck) defenders in college, but in their second and third years, they are all considered subpar. This if a huge indictment of Sam and Thibs, and Flip to some extent. But the biggest disappointment in this area has to be Thibs, because he is being paid $8 million to make these guys better defenders, and so far it hasn't worked.

LST, in 4th quarters this year Zach is shooting 38% and Wig 48%.

[Coolbreeze44]

KAT shoots 39% in the 4th quarter.

[Monster]

This team is 1 game behind last year's win loss record at game 37.

When the Wolves started winning games they have 40+ games playing for the coaching staff that was on watch when they had their promising finish. Before that the few wins seem clearly assisted by some cagey vets. Prince would still probably be a pretty handy vet on this team even at 20mpg because he would likely be the best perimeter defender on the floor and he played for this team down the stretch last year.

Sam said last year he was in development mode and did it a few different ways when his methods and be analyzed good and bad. At some point something clicked offensively and he team rally sorta took off. What is Thibs plan exactly? Is he trying to get thee guys to play well overall or is he building something that will make this team more of a contending TEAM down the road? Its pretty tough to find a coach that can develop a young roster and then be a top level playoff coach. If Thibs ends up being the later and it takes a little longer for him to get his young players to get there than expected i'll live with it ESPECIALLY since he is playing the young players and not panicking and getting old vets to plug in and trying to win games. This season is frustrating and the angst should be there, but I'm just saying try and have more patience. It sucks but good things can take more time.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Wig, Zach and KAT were all considered near elite (copyright PJ Fleck) defenders in college

Wiggins and Towns were considered good defenders during college; Zach was considered a poor defender. In the NBA thus far, I don't think any of them has been consistently good on defense. Andrew has probably been the best.

Yeah, I agree that Wig has probably been the best of the three defensively, but it's not a very high bar. I have a different opinion than you though on Zach as a defensive player in college. Zach was a poor offensive player certainly, but I believe Flip told Lipoli that one of the reasons he coveted Zach in the draft was that Zach led the nation in a certain on-ball defensive measure.

[TAFKASP]

Wig, Zach and KAT were all considered near elite (copyright PJ Fleck) defenders in college

Wiggins and Towns were considered good defenders during college; Zach was considered a poor defender. In the NBA thus far, I don't think any of them has been consistently good on defense. Andrew has probably been the best.

Yeah, I agree that Wig has probably been the best of the three defensively, but it's not a very high bar. I have a different opinion than you though on Zach as a defensive player in college. Zach was a poor offensive player certainly, but I believe Flip told Lipoli that one of the reasons he coveted Zach in the draft was that Zach led the nation in a certain on-ball defensive measure.

As I recall that post I think Flip was enamored with Zach's P-word.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Wig, Zach and KAT were all considered near elite (copyright PJ Fleck) defenders in college

Wiggins and Towns were considered good defenders during college; Zach was considered a poor defender. In the NBA thus far, I don't think any of them has been consistently good on defense. Andrew has probably been the best.

Yeah, I agree that Wig has probably been the best of the three defensively, but it's not a very high bar. I have a different opinion than you though on Zach as a defensive player in college. Zach was a poor offensive player certainly, but I believe Flip told Lipoli that one of the reasons he coveted Zach in the draft was that Zach led the nation in a certain on-ball defensive measure.

As I recall that post I think Flip was enamored with Zach's P-word.

His prostate?

[TAFKASP]

Wig, Zach and KAT were all considered near elite (copyright PJ Fleck) defenders in college

Wiggins and Towns were considered good defenders during college; Zach was considered a poor defender. In the NBA thus far, I don't think any of them has been consistently good on defense. Andrew has probably been the best.

Yeah, I agree that Wig has probably been the best of the three defensively, but it's not a very high bar. I have a different opinion than you though on Zach as a defensive player in college. Zach was a poor offensive player certainly, but I believe Flip told Lipoli that one of the reasons he coveted Zach in the draft was that Zach led the nation in a certain on-ball defensive measure.

As I recall that post I think Flip was enamored with Zach's P-word.

His prostate?

Nope, the other one!

[mrhockey89]

Ill admit that I didn't read 5 pages on this thread, but I think if anyone was expecting a defensive transformation in year 1 under Thibodeau then they had false expectations. The guys are learning how to play together, and still learning the NBA game. They have the skill set to become a good NBA defensive unit, but they are still too raw and inexperienced. Thib's system requires players to fully understand not only concepts, but tendencies through repetition and film study, but there also has to be experience and want-to. They'll get there.

[MikkeMan]

Here is some fuel to the fire for Team Ricky and LST - our two loudest Thibs opponents:

Andrew Wiggins (PER and WS/48):
2015/16: 16.5 and .069
2015/17: 15.3 and .060
STAGNANT
...
Cole Aldrich
2015/16: 21.3 and .209
2016/17: 14.4 and .146
REGRESSED

Another way to look this. Last season post all star break (I don't like to cherry pick just those last 20 games) Ortg and Drtg for Wolves team was 106.8 and 108.8 which gives net rating -2.0. Corresponding numbers for this seasons team are so far 106.1 and 107.7 and net rating is -1.6. If we look their opponent's average drtg and ortg numbers for both stretches, they have been almost identical. (both numbers between 105 and 105.3) So there hasn't been much difference in strength of schedule either.

Last season team had however 12-16 record post all star break, which was clearly better than current record 12-26. Better record was mainly due much better record in close games. Last season post all star break team had record 6-1 in games with 3 or less points margin. (OT games included regardless final margin) This season's squad has record 1-7 in close games. Some clever poster has convinced me past that typically teams will have around 50% record in close games if the sample size id big enough, which means that 'luck' plays big role in each team close game record. Even that 13-14 Wolves team that was famously bad in finishing close games had 5-2 record in close games in 2nd half of that season.

So if we would even the luck for our team post all star break last season and this season, their record wouldn't look much different. If this season team would have had even close as good luck than last season's team had and would have 6-2 record in close games, it would mean 18-21 record overall. So current team with even close to similar good luck than last years team had post all star break, would have actually better winning percentage than last season's team had post all star break.(47.3% vs 42.9%)

Personally I will believe that like 13-14 Wolves team, also this team will have much better record in close games in 2nd half of this season and thus we will see a lot of improvement in team's overall record.