CoolBreeze44 wrote:I think we forget the Adelman years and how he coached Rubio. At the time I hated the way Rick took the flair out of Ricky's game and made him so mechanical. It was then that Ricky did a lot of time standing in the corner after getting the ball into the front court. My point is what we're seeing this year really isn't that new. I can only guess these coaches are trying to milk the most out of Ricky's strengths while attempting to minimize his inadequacies on the offensive end. Those inadequacies are real, and NBA coaches WILL take advantage of them. So I believe getting the ball out of his hands relatively early in the shot clock is a reaction to how defense's are playing us.
I don't think it was about Rubio for Adelman. It was more about his patented offense. As soon as Rick felt that he had a good chance (roster wise) to install his offense he went for it. And even then Rick didn't really take away the ball from Rubio as much as Thibs does. Everything is down: time with the ball, numbers of touches, dribbles and time per touch.
http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?sort=TOUCHES&dir=1
http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?sort=TOUCHES&dir=1&Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
And Rubio was in the game long enough and had been scouted enough many years ago. The notion that teams started to play him differently only this season is laughable. I heard it several years ago,
Who said teams started to play him differently only this season?
Believe it or not I've read people say that teams don't fall for his game and that's why he fell off THIS season. I wasn't really singling you out.
Q12543 wrote:I don't think those of us that are Rubio defenders ever made the case that he could take a team on his back and will them to victory, ala LeBron or Westbrook or even Lillard. On the other hand, the numbers speak for themselves on his positive impact (up until this year), yet many of his fiercest critics choose to ignore those numbers and instead use the generalized "but the team isn't winning" argument that he is not a good PG.
Brooklyn brought up a great example in John Wall as a PG that most here would undoubtedly rank higher than Rubio, yet Washington is struggling yet again this year. So I guess that means he's not very good, right??? The other guy I would cite in a similar boat is DeMarcus Cousins. Sacramento has had very little success with him being a key part of the team over multiple coaches and seasons. So I guess that means he's not a very good player either....or does the "team success = player effectiveness" rule not apply to them?
None of this diminishes the fact Rubio has not been very good this year, but once again, neither has his team mates.
We're nearing a dangerous rabbit hole. I specifically wrote "more" games in relation to the paltry number of games the Wolves have won with him here. I didn't claim Rubio should be the guy dragging the corpses of Michael Gelabale or Anthony Randolph to the playoffs. That's a huge difference.
Maybe the Wolves would have won even fewer games without Rubio (they did play worse when he was injured). I'm merely pointing out that they've been shitty year-in and year-out with Rubio. Is it all his fault? Of course not.
Abe, I'm not singling you out. It's a common argument from the most strident "anti-Rubio-ists". I was just pointing out that if those guys are consistent, they need to declare John Wall and DeMarcus Cousins as below average players too.
My guess is that none of this will be relevant in another year. I truly believe Dunn is a better version of Rubio defensively. And with the ball increasingly in the other players' hands, it somewhat mitigates his inferiority as a play maker versus Rubio. All he has to do is knock down shots on a semi-consistent basis (the bar is pretty low here) and Rubio instantly becomes redundant in Thibs' system.
Ya know, minus the fact the Wall's Wizards have been a playoff team in recent years and Boogie has kept the Kings outside the bottom 5 since he's been drafted and we've been in the bottom 5 both years after Love left. Put either one of them on this team in place of Ricky and we are in the playoff hunt. You can't call Ricky a top 5-10-15 PG because of advanced stats and then just ignore the losing while putting it on his teammates when you lose as much as we have. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Top players at their positions at the bear minimum keep their team outside the bottom 5.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:I think we forget the Adelman years and how he coached Rubio. At the time I hated the way Rick took the flair out of Ricky's game and made him so mechanical. It was then that Ricky did a lot of time standing in the corner after getting the ball into the front court. My point is what we're seeing this year really isn't that new. I can only guess these coaches are trying to milk the most out of Ricky's strengths while attempting to minimize his inadequacies on the offensive end. Those inadequacies are real, and NBA coaches WILL take advantage of them. So I believe getting the ball out of his hands relatively early in the shot clock is a reaction to how defense's are playing us.
I don't think it was about Rubio for Adelman. It was more about his patented offense. As soon as Rick felt that he had a good chance (roster wise) to install his offense he went for it. And even then Rick didn't really take away the ball from Rubio as much as Thibs does. Everything is down: time with the ball, numbers of touches, dribbles and time per touch.
http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?sort=TOUCHES&dir=1
http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?sort=TOUCHES&dir=1&Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
And Rubio was in the game long enough and had been scouted enough many years ago. The notion that teams started to play him differently only this season is laughable. I heard it several years ago,
Who said teams started to play him differently only this season?
Believe it or not I've read people say that teams don't fall for his game and that's why he fell off THIS season. I wasn't really singling you out.
Thanks for posting those. Invest theybare interesting to look at. A couple things I will mention though that the 2013-2014 team played a little quicker paces 101.5 possessions vs 99.9 and Rubio also played a little each game 32.2 vs 30.5 so there are maybe a couple possessions each game more that year he would have been involved in compared to this year.
In 2013-2014 Rubio and Love dominated the touches category and this year Rubio is at the top followed closely by Towns. It seems the touches are a bit more evenly distributed which kinda makes sense based on the offensive players on the team. The Wolves this year have 3 staters all capable of creating offense themselves. The 2013-2014 had Love ans Martin and both of those guys did a lot of their work writhing the the offense. Yo no surprise JJ was a guy that had the ball a lot and dribbled a lot etc. lol Anyway again interesting stuff again thanks for posting.
What about if there isn't much of a return for Rubio the Wolves just keep him and use him as a backup assuming Dunn comes on and becomes a starter? Sure Rubio costs a lot of money but backup PGs are getting a lot of money and the Wolves have cap space to keep him if they want to for the time being. Regardless of his flaws and the guys around him Rubio as a backup PG would probably be pretty good. Would Rubio be ok as a backup? I think that's a valid but interesting question. What if thebteams interested in him still kinda suck? Would Rubio rather be a backup on a more likely to be good team or a starter on another young re-re-re-rebuild? I'm not saying this is what I would doubt its interesting to consider espcially if this team wants to win games sooner rather than later espcially since even if Dunn figures it out there will probably be nights he struggles. It would mean Tyus wouldn't get much playing time which I don't like but Dunn and Rubio are both big PGs and if Tyus can hit jump shots he could play with either guy a few minutes here and there.
monsterpile wrote:
Thanks for posting those. Invest theybare interesting to look at. A couple things I will mention though that the 2013-2014 team played a little quicker paces 101.5 possessions vs 99.9 and Rubio also played a little each game 32.2 vs 30.5 so there are maybe a couple possessions each game more that year he would have been involved in compared to this year.
In 2013-2014 Rubio and Love dominated the touches category and this year Rubio is at the top followed closely by Towns. It seems the touches are a bit more evenly distributed which kinda makes sense based on the offensive players on the team. The Wolves this year have 3 staters all capable of creating offense themselves. The 2013-2014 had Love ans Martin and both of those guys did a lot of their work writhing the the offense. Yo no surprise JJ was a guy that had the ball a lot and dribbled a lot etc. lol Anyway again interesting stuff again thanks for posting.
I wish they had the time of possession once in half court offense to exclude the time it takes to bring up the ball thru out the game. It would give a better more useful ratio for comparison.
Q12543 wrote:I don't think those of us that are Rubio defenders ever made the case that he could take a team on his back and will them to victory, ala LeBron or Westbrook or even Lillard. On the other hand, the numbers speak for themselves on his positive impact (up until this year), yet many of his fiercest critics choose to ignore those numbers and instead use the generalized "but the team isn't winning" argument that he is not a good PG.
Brooklyn brought up a great example in John Wall as a PG that most here would undoubtedly rank higher than Rubio, yet Washington is struggling yet again this year. So I guess that means he's not very good, right??? The other guy I would cite in a similar boat is DeMarcus Cousins. Sacramento has had very little success with him being a key part of the team over multiple coaches and seasons. So I guess that means he's not a very good player either....or does the "team success = player effectiveness" rule not apply to them?
None of this diminishes the fact Rubio has not been very good this year, but once again, neither has his team mates.
We're nearing a dangerous rabbit hole. I specifically wrote "more" games in relation to the paltry number of games the Wolves have won with him here. I didn't claim Rubio should be the guy dragging the corpses of Michael Gelabale or Anthony Randolph to the playoffs. That's a huge difference.
Maybe the Wolves would have won even fewer games without Rubio (they did play worse when he was injured). I'm merely pointing out that they've been shitty year-in and year-out with Rubio. Is it all his fault? Of course not.
Abe, I'm not singling you out. It's a common argument from the most strident "anti-Rubio-ists". I was just pointing out that if those guys are consistent, they need to declare John Wall and DeMarcus Cousins as below average players too.
My guess is that none of this will be relevant in another year. I truly believe Dunn is a better version of Rubio defensively. And with the ball increasingly in the other players' hands, it somewhat mitigates his inferiority as a play maker versus Rubio. All he has to do is knock down shots on a semi-consistent basis (the bar is pretty low here) and Rubio instantly becomes redundant in Thibs' system.
Ya know, minus the fact the Wall's Wizards have been a playoff team in recent years and Boogie has kept the Kings outside the bottom 5 since he's been drafted and we've been in the bottom 5 both years after Love left. Put either one of them on this team in place of Ricky and we are in the playoff hunt. You can't call Ricky a top 5-10-15 PG because of advanced stats and then just ignore the losing while putting it on his teammates when you lose as much as we have. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Top players at their positions at the bear minimum keep their team outside the bottom 5.
Uh, way to move the goal posts. So now the hallmark of an acceptably good player is that they keep their team from being bottom 5. This reminds me of your arbitrary assertion that no player can develop adequately unless they play at least 18 minutes a game (this is in reference to the Anthony Bennett debates we used to have).
I'm not even arguing that Ricky is as good as Wall and Cousins. It's just that by the standards folks use to judge Ricky, these two players should be judged in a similarly harsh light.
I think a healthy Rubio by himself ads about 10 wins. I find ESPN RPM chart wins rather accurate. I don't know how exactly they calculate it by it seems spot of to me
Like last year Rubio added 10.xxx wins
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/sort/WINS
If he was absent from games entirely and we deduct his wins, Wolves would be 18-19 win ball club instead of 29. Seems spot on to me
in 2013-2014 http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2014/sort/WINS
if we deduct his WINS the team with Love going apeshit and Barea's erratic play would struggle to reach 30 wins. Again ESPN's estimation seems spot on to me.
The problem Brooklyn is that was then and this is now. He has absolutely not had a similar impact on this year's squad, which is unfortunate, not just because we have not been very good, but it also decreases his trade value.
Q12543 wrote:The problem Brooklyn is that was then and this is now. He has absolutely not had a similar impact on this year's squad, which is unfortunate, not just because we have not been very good, but it also decreases his trade value.
I'm aware of that. And I want to think that Thibs was willing to give up wins in favor of player development. IF he thought could get wins while developing the likes of Wiggins and LaVine then I think he overestimated himself and screwed the fans excitement.
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/sort/WINS
If he was absent from games entirely and we deduct his wins, Wolves would be 18-19 win ball club instead of 29. Seems spot on to me
in 2013-2014 http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2014/sort/WINS
if we deduct his WINS the team with Love going apeshit and Barea's erratic play would struggle to reach 30 wins. Again ESPN's estimation seems spot on to me.
As I've written many times... there are stats out there to argue almost any angle. And convincingly at times.
According to that link... Rubio was more instrumental in wins for the "disappointing" 40 - 42 Wolves than James Harden was for the surprising 54 - 28 Rockets. So was Channing Frye.
Furthermore, the Wolves had two of the top 15 players... and 4 of the top 66 players... and still finished under .500.
[Note: All stats have merit. That's not one of my favorites considering some of the anomalies it creates.]
