Why Kmart should start

[TeamRicky [enjin:6648771]]

"PG: Rubio (32) Zach (16)
SG: Martin (30) Wig (12) Zach (6)
SF: Wig (24) Bazz (24)
PF: KG (18) Belly (or Payne, if Belly can't go) 30
C: KAT (32) Dieng (16)"

That would only give Zach 22 minutes and inferior players like Martin and Bazz getting 30 and 24 minutes. Martin currently is getting 25 minutes and I'd suspect he'd get a few more minutes, but I think the move is more to pair him with the starters. I just don't see Sam rewarding Bazz another 7 minutes of playing time when he hasn't been very effective so far.

[TAFKASP]

"PG: Rubio (32) Zach (16)
SG: Martin (30) Wig (12) Zach (6)
SF: Wig (24) Bazz (24)
PF: KG (18) Belly (or Payne, if Belly can't go) 30
C: KAT (32) Dieng (16)"

That would only give Zach 22 minutes and inferior players like Martin and Bazz getting 30 and 24 minutes. Martin currently is getting 25 minutes and I'd suspect he'd get a few more minutes, but I think the move is more to pair him with the starters. I just don't see Sam rewarding Bazz another 7 minutes of playing time when he hasn't been very effective so far.

I'm not saying this is Sam's plan, but why does starting Martin have to equal 30 plus minutes of Martin? Is it not still possible to start with Martin, then if his shot is on ride him, and if it's not to sub him in the same way KG and Prince are/were?

[Coolbreeze44]

It's the tone, and in particular the nature of the comments toward Sam in the other thread, that I think are not cool.

Hey, we haven't made the playoffs in over a decade. For most of that time frame we have been a joke of a franchise. Can you really blame anyone for getting a little worked up when we see the same stupid things happening over and over again. I guess you would prefer my posts look like this:

Wiggins RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sam for coach of the year in '16!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Matt Barnes Sucks!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, I'm not going to be a house boy. If we don't demand excellence as a fan base, chances are we probably aren't going to see it. I shudder when great fans like those on this board just go along with the company line. If we're not going to questions things, who will? Jerry Zgoda? I don't think so.

[Coolbreeze44]

Cool asks for reasons why Martin in the starting lineup makes any sense at all. Q gives him a reason pointing out Martin still has a certain amount of offensive efficiency and conpares it to Wiggins. Cool takes it as a dig on Wiggins. To me it seemed more like trying to point out Martin still has value offensively although he has struggled putting the ball in the hoop. Good times

I'm sorry, I haven't seen anything but failure and poor play from Martin this year. Maybe I just don't understand the game.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Most of you seem to be buying into the logic of the move. The question I ask is why? What has Martin done to suggest he deserves more time, and that the team will benefit from it? He has been flat out terrible so far this year.

Bazz gets more time and that could be a good thing, but he hasn't exactly been stellar either. The guy who needs a more substantial role is Zach, and I don't see how this accomplishes that.

Martin has played poorly this year, but he also has a 10-year track record that suggests it won't continue. And again, despite his struggles, he's no less efficient than Wiggins on offense. My guess is that he eventually breaks out of his slump. The question is what does this do to the team defense?

While I'm not necessarily on board with this move, I'm not all up in arms over it either. Zach will still get his minutes and ultimately Martin will be traded or let go.

Why do you have to keep going there? It's just a stupid, hollow argument. How about this? Let's keep Tay in the starting lineup and insert Martin over Wiggins. Since Martin is as good offensively as Wiggins and Tay gives us the defense Wiggins does nothing should change right? I just don't understand your obsession with poking holes in Andrew Wiggins.

What's the stupid, hollow argument I'm making? I just pointed out a fact. I am not at all suggesting that Wiggins should be displaced in the starting lineup as I believe we need him defensively as much if not more than we need him offensively. He's our best wing defender.

(by the way, if you think I just like to pick on the young guys, please refer to my commentary on KAT. It will make you blush).

I'm not saying you like to pick on the young guys. I'm saying you look to discredit Wiggins every chance you get. You have since the beginning of last year. For every metric you find that could somehow suggest Martin is as important to our offense as Wiggins, I'll show you 2 that don't. Finding a stat to back up your argument does not mean your argument is factual.

You have this strange obsession / agenda to be pessimistic as it pertains to Wiggins. I'm clearly not the most optimistic guy on this board, so I can understand a pessimistic viewpoint. I just don't understand it with Andrew. I get the feeling you're just waiting for Drew to fall short of expectations.

Well, that's the whole issue now isn't it? I have very high expectations of a former #1 draft pick. And while he has certainly made his fair share of individual superstar highlight-worthy plays, there are things about his game that still need a lot of improvement. Obviously he's still young and can continue to improve, but I'm disappointed in what appears to be very little improvement in his rebounding, handle, and 3-point shooting versus last year. I think defensively he's better and he was pretty decent last year, so kudos to him on that front.

KAT on the other hand is really putting up honest-to-goodness future superstar type numbers. Wiggins makes some breathtaking plays, but then you realize he needed a bunch of possessions to get his points or got out-rebounded by his matchup. Again, it's only Year 2, but I want to see even more out of the kid. I certainly don't want him to fail - that's a ridiculous assertion on your part.

Uh...Wiggins' handle is significantly better than it was last year. The idea of Wiggins being able to run any PnR last year is unfathomable and he's done it this year. Also, people harp on his efficiency when he's the only one on the starting unit who can score 20 a game consistently. People wanted KAT and Wiggins to be forced into a bigger offensive role. Well when you're the only guy who can score 20 a night because 3/4 teammates are terrible scorers of the basketball, you have to do low efficient things like try to drive and score over 3 defenders and maybe or maybe not get the call. When the starting unit moves the ball, the defense only has to worry about 2 guys doing anything with it. It's a double edged sword. You can't bitch about Wiggins efficiency and also want him and Towns to be featured on a largely incompetent offensive unit of Ricky/Wiggins/Prince/KG/Towns because Wiggins has to do everything from a perimeter scoring perspective while having no teammates who are respected on the perimeter. You can't say he and Towns need to carry a first unit of scoring bums and expect them to do it efficiently. This is the NBA, not college. You can't play incompetent lineups and expect 2 players to carry them to competency. Just look at AD and Gordon in NO.

I'll also add that Martin won't help much on this front because he's always been a shot hunter next to Wiggins instead of a ball mover. I fully expect Wiggins to take a hit offensively because we just put a black hole next to him. There's a reason why our most promising lineup is Ricky/Lavine/Wiggins/NB/Towns. There's not a selfish player of the bunch and they move the ball on offense and 4/5 can score the ball effectively. Defensively they all play hard together and play aggressive. That's the lineup we should be starting.

[Coolbreeze44]

Most of you seem to be buying into the logic of the move. The question I ask is why? What has Martin done to suggest he deserves more time, and that the team will benefit from it? He has been flat out terrible so far this year.

Bazz gets more time and that could be a good thing, but he hasn't exactly been stellar either. The guy who needs a more substantial role is Zach, and I don't see how this accomplishes that.

Martin has played poorly this year, but he also has a 10-year track record that suggests it won't continue. And again, despite his struggles, he's no less efficient than Wiggins on offense. My guess is that he eventually breaks out of his slump. The question is what does this do to the team defense?

While I'm not necessarily on board with this move, I'm not all up in arms over it either. Zach will still get his minutes and ultimately Martin will be traded or let go.

Why do you have to keep going there? It's just a stupid, hollow argument. How about this? Let's keep Tay in the starting lineup and insert Martin over Wiggins. Since Martin is as good offensively as Wiggins and Tay gives us the defense Wiggins does nothing should change right? I just don't understand your obsession with poking holes in Andrew Wiggins.

What's the stupid, hollow argument I'm making? I just pointed out a fact. I am not at all suggesting that Wiggins should be displaced in the starting lineup as I believe we need him defensively as much if not more than we need him offensively. He's our best wing defender.

(by the way, if you think I just like to pick on the young guys, please refer to my commentary on KAT. It will make you blush).

I'm not saying you like to pick on the young guys. I'm saying you look to discredit Wiggins every chance you get. You have since the beginning of last year. For every metric you find that could somehow suggest Martin is as important to our offense as Wiggins, I'll show you 2 that don't. Finding a stat to back up your argument does not mean your argument is factual.

You have this strange obsession / agenda to be pessimistic as it pertains to Wiggins. I'm clearly not the most optimistic guy on this board, so I can understand a pessimistic viewpoint. I just don't understand it with Andrew. I get the feeling you're just waiting for Drew to fall short of expectations.

Well, that's the whole issue now isn't it? I have very high expectations of a former #1 draft pick. And while he has certainly made his fair share of individual superstar highlight-worthy plays, there are things about his game that still need a lot of improvement. Obviously he's still young and can continue to improve, but I'm disappointed in what appears to be very little improvement in his rebounding, handle, and 3-point shooting versus last year. I think defensively he's better and he was pretty decent last year, so kudos to him on that front.

KAT on the other hand is really putting up honest-to-goodness future superstar type numbers. Wiggins makes some breathtaking plays, but then you realize he needed a bunch of possessions to get his points or got out-rebounded by his matchup. Again, it's only Year 2, but I want to see even more out of the kid. I certainly don't want him to fail - that's a ridiculous assertion on your part.

Uh...Wiggins' handle is significantly better than it was last year. The idea of Wiggins being able to run any PnR last year is unfathomable and he's done it this year. Also, people harp on his efficiency when he's the only one on the starting unit who can score 20 a game consistently. People wanted KAT and Wiggins to be forced into a bigger offensive role. Well when you're the only guy who can score 20 a night because 3/4 teammates are terrible scorers of the basketball, you have to do low efficient things like try to drive and score over 3 defenders and maybe or maybe not get the call. When the starting unit moves the ball, the defense only has to worry about 2 guys doing anything with it. It's a double edged sword. You can't bitch about Wiggins efficiency and also want him and Towns to be featured on a largely incompetent offensive unit of Ricky/Wiggins/Prince/KG/Towns because Wiggins has to do everything from a perimeter scoring perspective while having no teammates who are respected on the perimeter. You can't say he and Towns need to carry a first unit of scoring bums and expect them to do it efficiently. This is the NBA, not college. You can't play incompetent lineups and expect 2 players to carry them to competency. Just look at AD and Gordon in NO.

I'll also add that Martin won't help much on this front because he's always been a shot hunter next to Wiggins instead of a ball mover. I fully expect Wiggins to take a hit offensively because we just put a black hole next to him. There's a reason why our most promising lineup is Ricky/Lavine/Wiggins/NB/Towns. There's not a selfish player of the bunch and they move the ball on offense and 4/5 can score the ball effectively. Defensively they all play hard together and play aggressive. That's the lineup we should be starting.

C'mon Khans - you know everything has to be explainable in black and white terms when it comes to Q. There is no room for thoughtful analysis outside of cold hard statistical data.

[Hicks123 [enjin:6700838]]

There certainly has to be questions with Wiggins offensive efficiency. He is like 12th in the league in scoring, but with a 16 PER. Don't love the overall metric, but it certainly is useful when looking at efficiency on the offensive end. While Wiggins is at 16 (barely league average), virtually all other players above him are at 24+ (I believe there was 1 guy at 20). The elite scorers at or over 30. While I love Wiggins potential, he certainly has some large holes to fill. And like Q or someone said, I have MASSIVE expectations of Wiggins. The greats typically demonstrate right away some skill that will make them elite. I thought that skill for Wiggins was FT attempts. But he has regressed a bit here. His middling shooting numbers require he be elite going to the line.

[Coolbreeze44]

There certainly has to be questions with Wiggins offensive efficiency. He is like 12th in the league in scoring, but with a 16 PER. Don't love the overall metric, but it certainly is useful when looking at efficiency on the offensive end. While Wiggins is at 16 (barely league average), virtually all other players above him are at 24+ (I believe there was 1 guy at 20). The elite scorers at or over 30. While I love Wiggins potential, he certainly has some large holes to fill. And like Q or someone said, I have MASSIVE expectations of Wiggins. The greats typically demonstrate right away some skill that will make them elite. I thought that skill for Wiggins was FT attempts. But he has regressed a bit here. His middling shooting numbers require he be elite going to the line.

How many of those players above him are on terrible basketball teams?

[Monster]

Cool asks for reasons why Martin in the starting lineup makes any sense at all. Q gives him a reason pointing out Martin still has a certain amount of offensive efficiency and conpares it to Wiggins. Cool takes it as a dig on Wiggins. To me it seemed more like trying to point out Martin still has value offensively although he has struggled putting the ball in the hoop. Good times

I'm sorry, I haven't seen anything but failure and poor play from Martin this year. Maybe I just don't understand the game.

That's a completely fair position but if you ask for reason why Martin is in the starting lineup and then someone gives you something...um well you asked for it. :)

FWIW Martin said if he doesn't hit more shots he won't be helping the offense enough in the starting lineup.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

People are making the same argument for Martin this year that other people made for Thad Young last year. How'd that work out? How many 10 year vets come in and lay an egg the first month and then just recover to their former self for the rest of the year? I feel like most of the time that just ends up being a down year that you should cut bait on and not keep banging your head against a wall saying it's just gonna start clicking again at some point.