Q12543 wrote:If you look at some old Okogie scouting reports, you will sometimes see things about his body language and demeanor when things aren't going so well for him.
While many of us may have some appreciation for an old-school style, the bottom line is that there is almost zero downside to communicating one on one with someone and being honest. Thibs just flat out sucks at this. He needs to go to one of these executive finishing schools where they put you through a 360-degree review and have you meet with a management coach, etc....bleh, probably too late for him.
All of Okogie's assistant coaches from college have spoken ridiculously high of him as a person and as a guy that's going to work hard be the same guy and even to try and lead etc. I'm not worried about him.
All true, but there are two important factors in play here that Josh has never experienced before and may have an impact:
1)I'm fairly certain there has never been a time when Josh has been considered anything other than a "star" or when he wasn't getting significant playing time...heck, he averaged 31 MPG and 16.1 PPG as a freshman at GT, and
2)He has never played for Thibs.
I don't question Thibs' decision to not play Josh last night, but his sour attitude on the court at the end of the game was evident to people in my section. I think Josh is an outstanding young man too, but I hope the combination of not playing and not being told why he is not playing doesn't have a negative impact on him.
I also think okogie reads alot of what people say in the forums.
We got people calling him the next one, people calling him the second best player on the team, and people who are saying he should start ahead of wiggins. He probably started to believe the hype, i mean what 20 year old wouldnt. So, it's a letdown when he cant get on the floor.
Okogie was at best a 3 star guy coming into college in the summer HS travel teams he was the glue guy that did all the other stuff while the other supposedly more talented guys scored. His parents didn't even care if he played basketball he had to do his chores first. He is the opposite of an entitled player. He wants to play great you want him to want to play. If we see this multiple times I'll start to worry.
I'm not worried, but his pouting was quite obvious and strange at such a joyous moment. Keep in mind...3-star guys are almost always the stars of their teams (except for a couple powerhouse basketball factories). I'm not suggesting that Josh is entitled...only that the experience of not getting regular minutes is one that he never experienced in high school or college, and to c-c's point, has to feel kind of strange to him when he reads articles and posts about how great he is as a rookie. But my indictment is really about Thibs, not Josh...hopefully he can do something to make the kid feel better about the situation. It wouldn't take much.
Q12543 wrote:If you look at some old Okogie scouting reports, you will sometimes see things about his body language and demeanor when things aren't going so well for him.
While many of us may have some appreciation for an old-school style, the bottom line is that there is almost zero downside to communicating one on one with someone and being honest. Thibs just flat out sucks at this. He needs to go to one of these executive finishing schools where they put you through a 360-degree review and have you meet with a management coach, etc....bleh, probably too late for him.
All of Okogie's assistant coaches from college have spoken ridiculously high of him as a person and as a guy that's going to work hard be the same guy and even to try and lead etc. I'm not worried about him.
All true, but there are two important factors in play here that Josh has never experienced before and may have an impact:
1)I'm fairly certain there has never been a time when Josh has been considered anything other than a "star" or when he wasn't getting significant playing time...heck, he averaged 31 MPG and 16.1 PPG as a freshman at GT, and
2)He has never played for Thibs.
I don't question Thibs' decision to not play Josh last night, but his sour attitude on the court at the end of the game was evident to people in my section. I think Josh is an outstanding young man too, but I hope the combination of not playing and not being told why he is not playing doesn't have a negative impact on him.
I also think okogie reads alot of what people say in the forums.
We got people calling him the next one, people calling him the second best player on the team, and people who are saying he should start ahead of wiggins. He probably started to believe the hype, i mean what 20 year old wouldnt. So, it's a letdown when he cant get on the floor.
Okogie was at best a 3 star guy coming into college in the summer HS travel teams he was the glue guy that did all the other stuff while the other supposedly more talented guys scored. His parents didn't even care if he played basketball he had to do his chores first. He is the opposite of an entitled player. He wants to play great you want him to want to play. If we see this multiple times I'll start to worry.
I'm not worried, but his pouting was quite obvious and strange at such a joyous moment. Keep in mind...3-star guys are almost always the stars of their teams (except for a couple powerhouse basketball factories). I'm not suggesting that Josh is entitled...only that the experience of not getting regular minutes is one that he never experienced in high school or college, and to c-c's point, has to feel kind of strange to him when he reads articles and posts about how great he is as a rookie. But my indictment is really about Thibs, not Josh...hopefully he can do something to make the kid feel better about the situation. It wouldn't take much.
I see your angle now. Thibs not simply calling a timeout with 2 mins to go or whatever is just weird or just dumb. If you are Teague why not call a timeout yourself? Honestly I have thought for some time that Thibs actually isn't against guys forcing his hand like that but I could be wrong. Note when Covington got into foul trouble he just went and sat down. Okogie should have gotten in there earlier either for Rose or Teague. Have some confidence in that guy with a legit lead and a few minutes to go and the Blazers young scrubs in there. I can see maybe keeping a couple of those guys like Saric out there for a couple more minutes just to get in some more run but Rose and Teague are both banged up.
Q12543 wrote:If you look at some old Okogie scouting reports, you will sometimes see things about his body language and demeanor when things aren't going so well for him.
While many of us may have some appreciation for an old-school style, the bottom line is that there is almost zero downside to communicating one on one with someone and being honest. Thibs just flat out sucks at this. He needs to go to one of these executive finishing schools where they put you through a 360-degree review and have you meet with a management coach, etc....bleh, probably too late for him.
All of Okogie's assistant coaches from college have spoken ridiculously high of him as a person and as a guy that's going to work hard be the same guy and even to try and lead etc. I'm not worried about him.
All true, but there are two important factors in play here that Josh has never experienced before and may have an impact:
1)I'm fairly certain there has never been a time when Josh has been considered anything other than a "star" or when he wasn't getting significant playing time...heck, he averaged 31 MPG and 16.1 PPG as a freshman at GT, and
2)He has never played for Thibs.
I don't question Thibs' decision to not play Josh last night, but his sour attitude on the court at the end of the game was evident to people in my section. I think Josh is an outstanding young man too, but I hope the combination of not playing and not being told why he is not playing doesn't have a negative impact on him.
I also think okogie reads alot of what people say in the forums.
We got people calling him the next one, people calling him the second best player on the team, and people who are saying he should start ahead of wiggins. He probably started to believe the hype, i mean what 20 year old wouldnt. So, it's a letdown when he cant get on the floor.
Okogie was at best a 3 star guy coming into college in the summer HS travel teams he was the glue guy that did all the other stuff while the other supposedly more talented guys scored. His parents didn't even care if he played basketball he had to do his chores first. He is the opposite of an entitled player. He wants to play great you want him to want to play. If we see this multiple times I'll start to worry.
I'm not worried, but his pouting was quite obvious and strange at such a joyous moment. Keep in mind...3-star guys are almost always the stars of their teams (except for a couple powerhouse basketball factories). I'm not suggesting that Josh is entitled...only that the experience of not getting regular minutes is one that he never experienced in high school or college, and to c-c's point, has to feel kind of strange to him when he reads articles and posts about how great he is as a rookie. But my indictment is really about Thibs, not Josh...hopefully he can do something to make the kid feel better about the situation. It wouldn't take much.
I see your angle now. Thibs not simply calling a timeout with 2 mins to go or whatever is just weird or just dumb. If you are Teague why not call a timeout yourself? Honestly I have thought for some time that Thibs actually isn't against guys forcing his hand like that but I could be wrong. Note when Covington got into foul trouble he just went and sat down. Okogie should have gotten in there earlier either for Rose or Teague. Have some confidence in that guy with a legit lead and a few minutes to go and the Blazers young scrubs in there. I can see maybe keeping a couple of those guys like Saric out there for a couple more minutes just to get in some more run but Rose and Teague are both banged up.
Okogie absolutely should have come in when cov got his 5th. Instead, thibs decided to trot out 3 pgs.
Wiggs plays the entire 3rd, then thibs put him back in after rethinking the 3 pg line up. Would it really have hurt to give wiggs more than 3 minutes of gametime to take a breather? With teague or rose on the floor okogie doesn't have to worry about his offense as much.
Teague and Rose should have come out with Okogie and another bench guy going in with 5:33 left in the game coming off a timeout. Towns and Wiggins should have been taken out either then or with 3:00 left. Thibodeau's management of minutes last night in the 4th quarter was inexplicable and unnacceptable.
I just watched the video of Tolliver's talk about not having communication about his role from the Pels game. That part seems to be blown up but it's worth watching the whole thing.
monsterpile wrote:I just watched the video of Tolliver's talk about not having communication about his role from the Pels game. That part seems to be blown up but it's worth watching the whole thing.
Tolliver is a classy guy, and you're right that his comments were certainly not overly critical or out of line. But the fact that he said anything at all (and that another very popular guy in the league (Crawford) "liked" his comments is just more evidence of how out of step Thibs is in being a coach that can get the most out of his players. On the positive side, players are saying that he is loosening up a little (the fun practice on KAT's birthday being an example) and Thibs is not a dumb guy...I'm somewhat optimistic Thibs might recognize how the team responds when he lightens up a little. It sure was fun last night!
monsterpile wrote:I just watched the video of Tolliver's talk about not having communication about his role from the Pels game. That part seems to be blown up but it's worth watching the whole thing.
Tolliver is a classy guy, and you're right that his comments were certainly not overly critical or out of line. But the fact that he said anything at all (and that another very popular guy in the league (Crawford) "liked" his comments is just more evidence of how out of step Thibs is in being a coach that can get the most out of his players. On the positive side, players are saying that he is loosening up a little (the fun practice on KAT's birthday being an example) and Thibs is not a dumb guy...I'm somewhat optimistic Thibs might recognize how the team responds when he lightens up a little. It sure was fun last night!
LST Tolliver was directly asked if he was communicated to about not playing. What was he supposed to say?
As for what Crawford liked...those Tweets basically all had Tolliver remaining positive as well...so someone could spin it a few different ways if they wanted to.
monsterpile wrote:I just watched the video of Tolliver's talk about not having communication about his role from the Pels game. That part seems to be blown up but it's worth watching the whole thing.
Tolliver is a classy guy, and you're right that his comments were certainly not overly critical or out of line. But the fact that he said anything at all (and that another very popular guy in the league (Crawford) "liked" his comments is just more evidence of how out of step Thibs is in being a coach that can get the most out of his players. On the positive side, players are saying that he is loosening up a little (the fun practice on KAT's birthday being an example) and Thibs is not a dumb guy...I'm somewhat optimistic Thibs might recognize how the team responds when he lightens up a little. It sure was fun last night!
LST Tolliver was directly asked if he was communicated to about not playing. What was hesupposed to say?
As for what Crawford liked...those Tweets basically all had Tolliver remaining positive as well...so someone could spin it a few different ways if they wanted to.
Depends on whether he wanted to sell Thibs out or not, and apparently he decided he wanted to. Typically if a player is unhappy but doesn't want to throw his coach under the bus, he's smart enough to avoid the question. "Sorry, but we keep locker room talk to ourselves" or "that's between Thibs and me, but we're all right". Happens every day. It was pretty clear to me that Tolliver wanted to make a point, and that Crawford enjoyed the fact that he made that point.
monsterpile wrote:I just watched the video of Tolliver's talk about not having communication about his role from the Pels game. That part seems to be blown up but it's worth watching the whole thing.
Tolliver is a classy guy, and you're right that his comments were certainly not overly critical or out of line. But the fact that he said anything at all (and that another very popular guy in the league (Crawford) "liked" his comments is just more evidence of how out of step Thibs is in being a coach that can get the most out of his players. On the positive side, players are saying that he is loosening up a little (the fun practice on KAT's birthday being an example) and Thibs is not a dumb guy...I'm somewhat optimistic Thibs might recognize how the team responds when he lightens up a little. It sure was fun last night!
LST Tolliver was directly asked if he was communicated to about not playing. What was hesupposed to say?
As for what Crawford liked...those Tweets basically all had Tolliver remaining positive as well...so someone could spin it a few different ways if they wanted to.
Depends on whether he wanted to sell Thibs out or not, and apparently he decided he wanted to. Typically if a player is unhappy but doesn't want to throw his coach under the bus, he's smart enough to avoid the question. "Sorry, but we keep locker room talk to ourselves" or "that's between Thibs and me, but we're all right". Happens every day. It was pretty clear to me that Tolliver wanted to make a point, and that Crawford enjoyed the fact that he made that point.
Tolliver didn't seem pissed. But in my view, he communicated subtly but clearly his disappointment in the lack of communication from Thibodeau. And Crawford's departure from the team, not to menation his "likes" regarding Tolliver's comments, underscore the problems players have with Thibodeau as head coach. But it's not like any of this is new or shocking. Thibodeau's communication issues and mismanagement of minutes have been hallmarks of his entire head coaching career dating back to Chicago. So I really don't see any room for debate here. Looking beyond Tolliver's comments, the idiocy of keeping Teague, Rose, Wiggins and KAT in the game after a timeout with a 24 point lead and 5:33 left in the game takes the cake. There's no rational explanation and no excuse for what Thibodeau did in that regard last night. It might be the sort of thing we could dismiss if it were an anomalous occurrence, but instead it was typical of Thibodeau's coaching practices his entire career. Thankfully, none of those 4 got hurt during that stretch.
It's interesting as some of us (myself included) praise Thibodeau for his little improvements in his 3rd season here when those improvements just barely measure up to what should be minimal expectations for a good head coach in today's NBA. Moreover, in spite of those small improvements, he continues to fail to adequately communicate with his players and to woefully mismanage playing time of his players, including the gross mismanagement we saw in the 4th quarter last night.
I'm happy the team is doing well with Butler gone and the players finding some long-lost chemistry. But I haven't changed my view that Thibodeau, even the slightly improved version of today, needs to go. I might change my mind if this team ends up a top 5 team in the West this season. I hope that happens.
