Minnesota Sports Forum

I think the improvement lies more in who they're competing against. If you take two guys at 26, one has faced strong NBA competition for 5 years and the other only 2, then I would venture to guess the veteran (Butler in this case) has shown us his best or close to it. With Gorgei, I think a lot of us would like to see him compete for a few more years against the best and then make those evaluations.

BizarroJerry wrote:I think the improvement lies more in who they're competing against. If you take two guys at 26, one has faced strong NBA competition for 5 years and the other only 2, then I would venture to guess the veteran (Butler in this case) has shown us his best or close to it. With Gorgei, I think a lot of us would like to see him compete for a few more years against the best and then make those evaluations.

I get Mikkeman's take more than this one.

So, you're saying it's a negative that Butler has performed so well while winning against top competition... and it's a positive that Dieng has had mixed results mostly losing vs. disinterested competition?

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

BizarroJerry wrote:I think the improvement lies more in who they're competing against. If you take two guys at 26, one has faced strong NBA competition for 5 years and the other only 2, then I would venture to guess the veteran (Butler in this case) has shown us his best or close to it. With Gorgei, I think a lot of us would like to see him compete for a few more years against the best and then make those evaluations.

I get Mikkeman's take more than this one.

So, you're saying it's a negative that Butler has performed so well while winning against top competition... and it's a positive that Dieng has had mixed results mostly losing vs. disinterested competition?

Yes, I think Mikkeman and I are essentially saying the same thing, he's obviously more of a statistician. I see Butler regressing soon due to him playing more at a high level for longer than Dieng at a similar age. Now we're talking about a Wiggins for Butler trade, so I think we're going to be hitting our prime in 3-4 years so I'd like to have guys on our roster who are not on their decline.

What do you mean by disinterested? College players?

No and I am not sure I would trade LaVine for him straight up either.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

BizarroJerry wrote:I think the improvement lies more in who they're competing against. If you take two guys at 26, one has faced strong NBA competition for 5 years and the other only 2, then I would venture to guess the veteran (Butler in this case) has shown us his best or close to it. With Gorgei, I think a lot of us would like to see him compete for a few more years against the best and then make those evaluations.

I get Mikkeman's take more than this one.

So, you're saying it's a negative that Butler has performed so well while winning against top competition... and it's a positive that Dieng has had mixed results mostly losing vs. disinterested competition?

Abe - Sometimes you're such a cantankerous old man. :) All Jerry was saying is that we already know how good Butler can be, but we don't yet know how good Gorgui can be.

Butler's had 3 years of college and had 5 NBA seasons under a great head coach. Gorgui's had 2 years of college and hasn't had the benefit of playing under a great coach. It's reasonable to suggest that Gorgui could become a lot better after one or two more seasons and having Thibs as his head coach in that extra season or two.

Butler has had the benefit of Thibs coaching and our guys haven't. I don't want to trade away any of our starters until after at least one full season under Thibs system. Chicago would be selling high and we'd be selling low. That's not what smart teams do.

TeamRicky wrote:Butler has had the benefit of Thibs coaching and our guys haven't. I don't want to trade away any of our starters until after at least one full season under Thibs system. Chicago would be selling high and we'd be selling low. That's not what smart teams do.

Absolutely right, Ricky! My concern is that our basketball department is currently being run by a lifer coach with no front office experience of any kind or any executive experience in any business anytime in his life. His GM's record as head of the Knicks basketball department was epically horrible. So I'm worried. But we'll see. Thibs may turn out to have the savvy it takes to peform well in his executive role. Time will tell.

lipoli390 wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:Butler has had the benefit of Thibs coaching and our guys haven't. I don't want to trade away any of our starters until after at least one full season under Thibs system. Chicago would be selling high and we'd be selling low. That's not what smart teams do.

Absolutely right, Ricky! My concern is that our basketball department is currently being run by a lifer coach with no front office experience of any kind or any executive experience in any business anytime in his life. His GM's record as head of the Knicks basketball department was epically horrible. So I'm worried. But we'll see. Thibs may turn out to have the savvy it takes to peform well in his executive role. Time will tell.

Thibs has said over and over and over again he thinks this is the best young roster in the league. I don't see him trading away any of the important pieces that made him want to come here in the first place.

I get the skeptism about the Layden Thibs regime but these guys are basketball lifers. Thibs has been scouting,coaching, developing talent longer than some posters here have been alive. Layden knows what a good basketball organization is all about and these guys don't have to look over their shoulders. They get to build the team without having someone want them to win immediately or saying you gotta get this player etc. Glen still has some power but he doesn't meddle too much. I think these guys realize this team can be a playoff team nearly as is. They don't have to do make shortcuts but they are going to look at every possibility which is their job. There have been a couple people including I believe Andre Miller that have said recently that coaches and GMs like to get young players and show how good and smart they are. There is probably some truth to that. I wouldn't be surprised if Thibs thought he could coach up some more young talent than already is on the roster. We will see but Lip I personally think Thibs and Layden are more on the same page as you and I (keep building with young talent) than most people think.

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

BizarroJerry wrote:I think the improvement lies more in who they're competing against. If you take two guys at 26, one has faced strong NBA competition for 5 years and the other only 2, then I would venture to guess the veteran (Butler in this case) has shown us his best or close to it. With Gorgei, I think a lot of us would like to see him compete for a few more years against the best and then make those evaluations.

I get Mikkeman's take more than this one.

So, you're saying it's a negative that Butler has performed so well while winning against top competition... and it's a positive that Dieng has had mixed results mostly losing vs. disinterested competition?

Abe - Sometimes you're such a cantankerous old man. :) All Jerry was saying is that we already know how good Butler can be, but we don't yet know how good Gorgui can be.

Butler's had 3 years of college and had 5 NBA seasons under a great head coach. Gorgui's had 2 years of college and hasn't had the benefit of playing under a great coach. It's reasonable to suggest that Gorgui could become a lot better after one or two more seasons and having Thibs as his head coach in that extra season or two.

That might be true. Or, Dieng was putting up hollow stats on really crappy teams and will be overmatched vs. more committed teams as the Wolves battle for a playoff spot this season. I guess we'll find out.

I'm simply more of a "bird in the hand" kind of guy. We KNOW Jimmy Butler is a really good player. Don't know why that's not appreciated more. (Not just with butler. Sometimes, I think as a group, we tend to value promise over production. Then again, we have a lot more experience with it as long-suffering Wolves fans.)

lipoli390 wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:Butler has had the benefit of Thibs coaching and our guys haven't. I don't want to trade away any of our starters until after at least one full season under Thibs system. Chicago would be selling high and we'd be selling low. That's not what smart teams do.

Absolutely right, Ricky! My concern is that our basketball department is currently being run by a lifer coach with no front office experience of any kind or any executive experience in any business anytime in his life. His GM's record as head of the Knicks basketball department was epically horrible. So I'm worried. But we'll see. Thibs may turn out to have the savvy it takes to peform well in his executive role. Time will tell.

I think this is a real concern that we haven't addressed much here...as Lip says, a guy who has only been a coach and never an executive is now in charge of the basketball operations of the Wolves. If I had to predict an outcome, I would predict that he performs fine in his new role. But I'm generally an optimist, and I recognize the possibility that he could be a disaster.

But I think it's naïve to think he's not going to try to put his own stamp on this roster right away. Yes, he has said this is the best young roster in basketball, and I think he really believes that. But that doesn't mean that he thinks the best strategy is to stand pat. Thibs has a big ego, and guys like that gravitate toward big moves that match his philosophy. And he also is naturally going to be more comfortable with his roster if he has a few of his own guys around. Maybe that means he picks up a Deng or Noah in free agency, but I think the reports that he covets Butler are real...that's his biggest target, and Wig will have to be part of any package to bring him in.

Having said that, I think the chances of a deal involving Wig and Butler happening is less than 20%, for two reasons. First, if you look at the BullsRealGM board, they have the exact opposite view from us...they don't like the idea of trading a sure thing like Butler for a guy with upside like Wig. Trading Butler would be a very unpopular move in Chicago. Second, the Bulls beat writer said the Bulls brass hates Thibs so much that they are not going to do anything that they think will help him. It's very unlikely Butler will be part of this team.