Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:I'd also add Myles Turner and Domantas Sabonis as two bigs that co-exist together. Sabonis plays PF when playing with Turner and he's not nearly as athletic and mobile as Wiseman.

I think the issue with both these guys (KAT and Wiseman) is defensive fundamentals and commitment. Both have absolutely nothing stopping them physically from being good defenders. I think we already know KAT isn't going to get there - it would have happened by now. But I don't want to rule that possibility out with Wiseman even though he still has a long ways to go on that end. If we draft him, he will be allowed to focus more on defense because he won't really be relied upon that much for offense. KAT was one of our top offensive options starting his rookie year.

Q12543 wrote:I'd also add Myles Turner and Domantas Sabonis as two bigs that co-exist together. Sabonis plays PF when playing with Turner and he's not nearly as athletic and mobile as Wiseman.

I think the issue with both these guys (KAT and Wiseman) is defensive fundamentals and commitment. Both have absolutely nothing stopping them physically from being good defenders. I think we already know KAT isn't going to get there - it would have happened by now. But I don't want to rule that possibility out with Wiseman even though he still has a long ways to go on that end. If we draft him, he will be allowed to focus more on defense because he won't really be relied upon that much for offense. KAT was one of our top offensive options starting his rookie year.

And therein lies the risk of drafting Wiseman; i.e., he seems to have the same defensive issues as KAT. In KAT's case, I agree there's a lack of commitment to the defensive end. What you're calling lack of fundamental, I'd characterize as poor defensive instincts or low defensive IQ. From what I've read, Wiseman has exactly the same issue. I don't know how much that deficiency can be expected to improve. One reason I like Okongwu for the Wolves is that he looks like a natural instinctive defender and that's what we need more than anything to pair with KAT. But Okongwu doesn't have Wiseman's length or, I would argue, Wiseman's offensive potential.

To flip this a bit...what would we be saying about Okongwu's defense if he had played just 3 games? Was wiseman block happy questionable defender on team USA? Was it in HS? I'd give him more of a break in HS if say he was block happy because I don't know what level of competition he was facing. If I was physically gifted like him I might chase some blocks etc also. Hell I've done that at a few times in my life being 5'10". lol I'm not gonna tell Lip my overhead reach. :)

I'm not saying we should throw up our hands or not consider the evidence in front of us. Last draft some (Including myself) were willing to take a shot on Darius Garland as a high pick who played 5 games in college. Wiseman has more length. Okongwu has a much stronger base. Im still not all in on Wiseman but I think I am on him as the #1 pick if there isn't some sort of reasonably attractive trade down scenario. I'm still holding out some glimmer of hope for a trade down that's really worth it.

I think Edwards should be the pick. When in doubt take the most athletic wing with a prototypical body. Wiseman's rep for being a poor defender scares me with how little defensive presence inside we've had for the last 5 years. I think Edwards next to DLo with their complimentary skills is as exciting as the potential of Wiseman next to KAT. Get our hustle, good rebounding 4 with the 17 or a trade involving 17.

I disagree with the thought that James Wiseman has a reputation as a poor defender. I think he's a good defender that has areas to improve on if he wants to become an anchor on that end in the NBA. For example, Wiseman needs to improve his footwork/sliding when switched out on guards. Wiseman needs to do a better job of staying down on fakes and walling up instead of leaving his feet in the paint. He needs more maturation defending against PnR's and at times he misses rotations where he could have made an impact. Those are a few areas that Wiseman could get better, but that's not to say that he's a poor defender. No 19-year old is a finished product, especially defensively.

Even this year's DPOY -- Giannis Antetokounmpo -- took several years to build his body and round out defensively. What he did have was above average length and above average fluidity for his size. Will Wiseman have comparable drive and desire to get better? Only he can know that, honestly, but Wiseman has DPOY potential and I'm willing to roll the dice on it.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:I'd also add Myles Turner and Domantas Sabonis as two bigs that co-exist together. Sabonis plays PF when playing with Turner and he's not nearly as athletic and mobile as Wiseman.

I think the issue with both these guys (KAT and Wiseman) is defensive fundamentals and commitment. Both have absolutely nothing stopping them physically from being good defenders. I think we already know KAT isn't going to get there - it would have happened by now. But I don't want to rule that possibility out with Wiseman even though he still has a long ways to go on that end. If we draft him, he will be allowed to focus more on defense because he won't really be relied upon that much for offense. KAT was one of our top offensive options starting his rookie year.

Q12543 wrote:I'd also add Myles Turner and Domantas Sabonis as two bigs that co-exist together. Sabonis plays PF when playing with Turner and he's not nearly as athletic and mobile as Wiseman.

I think the issue with both these guys (KAT and Wiseman) is defensive fundamentals and commitment. Both have absolutely nothing stopping them physically from being good defenders. I think we already know KAT isn't going to get there - it would have happened by now. But I don't want to rule that possibility out with Wiseman even though he still has a long ways to go on that end. If we draft him, he will be allowed to focus more on defense because he won't really be relied upon that much for offense. KAT was one of our top offensive options starting his rookie year.

And therein lies the risk of drafting Wiseman; i.e., he seems to have the same defensive issues as KAT. In KAT's case, I agree there's a lack of commitment to the defensive end. What you're calling lack of fundamental, I'd characterize as poor defensive instincts or low defensive IQ. From what I've read, Wiseman has exactly the same issue. I don't know how much that deficiency can be expected to improve. One reason I like Okongwu for the Wolves is that he looks like a natural instinctive defender and that's what we need more than anything to pair with KAT. But Okongwu doesn't have Wiseman's length or, I would argue, Wiseman's offensive potential.

To flip this a bit...what would we be saying about Okongwu's defense if he had played just 3 games? Was wiseman block happy questionable defender on team USA? Was it in HS? I'd give him more of a break in HS if say he was block happy because I don't know what level of competition he was facing. If I was physically gifted like him I might chase some blocks etc also. Hell I've done that at a few times in my life being 5'10". lol I'm not gonna tell Lip my overhead reach. :)

I'm not saying we should throw up our hands or not consider the evidence in front of us. Last draft some (Including myself) were willing to take a shot on Darius Garland as a high pick who played 5 games in college. Wiseman has more length. Okongwu has a much stronger base. Im still not all in on Wiseman but I think I am on him as the #1 pick if there isn't some sort of reasonably attractive trade down scenario. I'm still holding out some glimmer of hope for a trade down that's really worth it.

Monster - You don't have to tell me your overhead reach. I'm guessing you have short arms. :) Seriously, your question about Okongwu answers itself. If he had played only 3 games, I'd definitely wonder about the reliability of draft evaluations based solely on those three games. Fortunately, we have the luxury of evaluating Okongwu based on a full college season against high level college competition in which he put up consistently terrific numbers, especially for a freshman. So I feel much more comfortable making judgments about Okongwu's NBA potential based on his college stats and the analysis of draft experts who have likely been able to watch him in a lot of college games. Of course, even evaluations of Okongwu are significantly uncertain as we all know. And Wiseman's physical attributes give him a huge upside in my view. I just wish he didn't have doubts circulating around him about his motor/love for the game and defensive instincts, but then taking him at #1 would be very easy for me even though he played only three college games.

I was with you on Garland last year in spite of his limited college experience. I'm leaning the same way when it comes to Wiseman this year. Like you, I would explore trading down. But at the end of the day, I think the best bet will probably be staying at #1 and taking Wiseman - despite his lack of a significant college track record. In the end, the decision will have to turn on things none of us are likely to know. The Wolves will obviously have a lot more video and back channel information about Wiseman than we c an possibly have. They should have a much better idea than we have of his competitiveness and his defensive instincts - the two biggest question marks I've seen on him from draft analysts.

Camden0916 wrote:I disagree with the thought that James Wiseman has a reputation as a poor defender. I think he's a good defender that has areas to improve on if he wants to become an anchor on that end in the NBA. For example, Wiseman needs to improve his footwork/sliding when switched out on guards. Wiseman needs to do a better job of staying down on fakes and walling up instead of leaving his feet in the paint. He needs more maturation defending against PnR's and at times he misses rotations where he could have made an impact. Those are a few areas that Wiseman could get better, but that's not to say that he's a poor defender. No 19-year old is a finished product, especially defensively.

Even this year's DPOY -- Giannis Antetokounmpo -- took several years to build his body and round out defensively. What he did have was above average length and above average fluidity for his size. Will Wiseman have comparable drive and desire to get better? Only he can know that, honestly, but Wiseman has DPOY potential and I'm willing to roll the dice on it.

I think its a dice roll and that is the issue. Plenty of scouts have called Wiseman's defensive instincts and abilities into question. You could be totally right in saying he's got the tools to be a dominant force. But Its not Anthony Davis where there was consensus that he would be an immediate defensive force. Giannis is a great example of someone developing way beyond what anyone saw which is why he wasnt the #1 pick. Wiseman's defensive potential is really on his physical profile, which makes it a challenging crap shoot at #1. I dont think hes going to be a total bust in any way so Wiseman is fine at 1 for me personally. But it would be really hard to watch our D if we're playing two bigs and still getting dunked on every possession like the last 5 years.

thedoper wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:I disagree with the thought that James Wiseman has a reputation as a poor defender. I think he's a good defender that has areas to improve on if he wants to become an anchor on that end in the NBA. For example, Wiseman needs to improve his footwork/sliding when switched out on guards. Wiseman needs to do a better job of staying down on fakes and walling up instead of leaving his feet in the paint. He needs more maturation defending against PnR's and at times he misses rotations where he could have made an impact. Those are a few areas that Wiseman could get better, but that's not to say that he's a poor defender. No 19-year old is a finished product, especially defensively.

Even this year's DPOY -- Giannis Antetokounmpo -- took several years to build his body and round out defensively. What he did have was above average length and above average fluidity for his size. Will Wiseman have comparable drive and desire to get better? Only he can know that, honestly, but Wiseman has DPOY potential and I'm willing to roll the dice on it.

I think its a dice roll and that is the issue. Plenty of scouts have called Wiseman's defensive instincts and abilities into question. You could be totally right in saying he's got the tools to be a dominant force. But Its not Anthony Davis where there was consensus that he would be an immediate defensive force. Giannis is a great example of someone developing way beyond what anyone saw which is why he wasnt the #1 pick. Wiseman's defensive potential is really on his physical profile, which makes it a challenging crap shoot at #1. I dont think hes going to be a total bust in any way so Wiseman is fine at 1 for me personally. But it would be really hard to watch our D if we're playing two bigs and still getting dunked on every possession like the last 5 years.

That's a fair response overall. I can see where you're coming from and by no means do I think James Wiseman is as NBA-ready as Anthony Davis was coming out of Kentucky, but I do see him having a similar ceiling as well as a more NBA-ready body. I think Wiseman has been generally picked apart and overanalyzed throughout this process -- and much of that has to do with his extremely limited college career to say it nicely -- which has led some pundits to focus on what he struggles at defensively while ignoring what he already does well on that end. That's just my take.

As someone that wants Anthony Edwards with the top pick, do you feel more comfortable with him overcoming his weaknesses -- namely being a disinterested defender entirely and having poor shot selection offensively -- or is much of your stance based on the direction of the league in recent years? I'd be curious to see how you answer that. My next question would be do you think D'Angelo Russell and Edwards can coexist better than Karl-Anthony Towns and Wiseman would?

To me the question comes down to this. If I'm given three prospects, all of whom are rated pretty much the same by scouts and each having some pretty clear weaknesses, I'm going to take the one that has the most physical advantages over his positional counterparts. Edwards and Ball do not have this advantage. Wiseman does. So that's where I roll the dice. I agree he may never get there defensively, but if he does, it will be well worth it.

Q12543 wrote:To me the question comes down to this. If I'm given three prospects, all of whom are rated pretty much the same by scouts and each having some pretty clear weaknesses, I'm going to take the one that has the most physical advantages over his positional counterparts. Edwards and Ball do not have this advantage. Wiseman does. So that's where I roll the dice. I agree he may never get there defensively, but if he does, it will be well worth it.

Some would argue that LaMelo Ball being a 6'7 point guard has a case to be made, but I agree with you here (obviously). Players with James Wiseman's physical makeup are rare. Guys that large shouldn't be able to move as fluidly and as explosively as he can. There's maybe two or three players in the entire league that can hang with him running the floor. There's maybe a handful of players that can high point a rebound like he can. He has elite ability, and yes, some of it needs to be molded and refined, but this isn't uncommon among draft picks. Player development is crucial for everyone in the league.

Camden0916 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:I disagree with the thought that James Wiseman has a reputation as a poor defender. I think he's a good defender that has areas to improve on if he wants to become an anchor on that end in the NBA. For example, Wiseman needs to improve his footwork/sliding when switched out on guards. Wiseman needs to do a better job of staying down on fakes and walling up instead of leaving his feet in the paint. He needs more maturation defending against PnR's and at times he misses rotations where he could have made an impact. Those are a few areas that Wiseman could get better, but that's not to say that he's a poor defender. No 19-year old is a finished product, especially defensively.

Even this year's DPOY -- Giannis Antetokounmpo -- took several years to build his body and round out defensively. What he did have was above average length and above average fluidity for his size. Will Wiseman have comparable drive and desire to get better? Only he can know that, honestly, but Wiseman has DPOY potential and I'm willing to roll the dice on it.

I think its a dice roll and that is the issue. Plenty of scouts have called Wiseman's defensive instincts and abilities into question. You could be totally right in saying he's got the tools to be a dominant force. But Its not Anthony Davis where there was consensus that he would be an immediate defensive force. Giannis is a great example of someone developing way beyond what anyone saw which is why he wasnt the #1 pick. Wiseman's defensive potential is really on his physical profile, which makes it a challenging crap shoot at #1. I dont think hes going to be a total bust in any way so Wiseman is fine at 1 for me personally. But it would be really hard to watch our D if we're playing two bigs and still getting dunked on every possession like the last 5 years.

That's a fair response overall. I can see where you're coming from and by no means do I think James Wiseman is as NBA-ready as Anthony Davis was coming out of Kentucky, but I do see him having a similar ceiling as well as a more NBA-ready body. I think Wiseman has been generally picked apart and overanalyzed throughout this process -- and much of that has to do with his extremely limited college career to say it nicely -- which has led some pundits to focus on what he struggles at defensively while ignoring what he already does well on that end. That's just my take.

As someone that wants Anthony Edwards with the top pick, do you feel more comfortable with him overcoming his weaknesses -- namely being a disinterested defender entirely and having poor shot selection offensively -- or is much of your stance based on the direction of the league in recent years? I'd be curious to see how you answer that. My next question would be do you think D'Angelo Russell and Edwards can coexist better than Karl-Anthony Towns and Wiseman would?

Edwards and Wiseman seem to have the same criticism of being disengaged with D at times. I think 2 bigs lost on D is more detrimental to team D if you're playing that system.


I honestly dont know if Edwards is more likely to overcome his weaknesses than Wiseman. I do like Edwards strengths on this team. I like Edwards to slash to the hole and breakdown defenders and think that could be a huge compliment to DLo's perimeter game and unique vision. I like that Edwards is an athlete and has some skills on the ball. Two seven footers take up a lot of space on offense and lose a lot of speed on D. To me we'd have to be sure that Wiseman could be that defensive presence as KAT's not going to want to adapt his offensive play a whole lot. If Wiseman is that complimentary winner I'd be happy to ignore my reservations once I saw it working. I just envision an immediate role for a wing scorer who can get to the hole on this team. If Edwards projects to more than that, which I think he could, great.

Camden0916 wrote:I disagree with the thought that James Wiseman has a reputation as a poor defender. I think he's a good defender that has areas to improve on if he wants to become an anchor on that end in the NBA. For example, Wiseman needs to improve his footwork/sliding when switched out on guards. Wiseman needs to do a better job of staying down on fakes and walling up instead of leaving his feet in the paint. He needs more maturation defending against PnR's and at times he misses rotations where he could have made an impact. Those are a few areas that Wiseman could get better, but that's not to say that he's a poor defender. No 19-year old is a finished product, especially defensively.

Even this year's DPOY -- Giannis Antetokounmpo -- took several years to build his body and round out defensively. What he did have was above average length and above average fluidity for his size. Will Wiseman have comparable drive and desire to get better? Only he can know that, honestly, but Wiseman has DPOY potential and I'm willing to roll the dice on it.

Agreed.

Personally I'm not super intrigued in penciling in a SG who is lazy and would be smaller than our PG in height/length.