CoolBreeze44 wrote:Question, how do DLO's numbers look in those games when he sits out for rest or a thigh bruise? Of course we won the first game without him rather easily. But what about last night's winnable game? Do your stats take into account when he's a no show?
The numbers indicate that the Wolves are 1-1 this season when D'Angelo Russell hasn't played due to a quad contusion -- the severity of which is unknown to us here. What we do know from just a quick Google search is that quad contusions, if left untreated, can become significantly more complicated. I'd defer to the Wolves' medical team on this one. Injuries happen sometimes, unfortunately.
Now, if he's out as long as Jake Layman was last year with his toe injury, then that's a different conversation entirely.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:Question, how do DLO's numbers look in those games when he sits out for rest or a thigh bruise? Of course we won the first game without him rather easily. But what about last night's winnable game? Do your stats take into account when he's a no show?
The numbers indicate that the Wolves are 1-1 this season when D'Angelo Russell hasn't played due to a quad contusion -- the severity of which is unknown to us here. What we do know from just a quick Google search is that quad contusions, if left untreated, can become significantly more complicated. I'd defer to the Wolves' medical team on this one. Injuries happen sometimes, unfortunately.
Now, if he's out as long as Jake Layman was last year with his toe injury, then that's a different conversation entirely.
Ya, Wendal Carter JR. was just announced today to be out a month with a right quad contusion. We don't know how the Wolves would do if Dlo would be out the rest of the season. I mean we can use one game sample size, 1st Dlo game last year the wolves won. One game sample sizes are extremely dangerous.
Camden0916 wrote:It's really unfortunate that D'Angelo Russell's had four absolute stinkers this season because outside of those four games -- Wizards, Lakers, Spurs, Hawks -- he's been pretty decent across the board, especially considering the circumstances (ie. playing without Karl-Anthony Towns for a number of games). Those handful of bad games have left a sour taste in some fans' mouths, understandably. And while there is no amnestying poor games from the record, especially from a notable player that makes max money, Russell's been an entirely different -- for the better -- player in the other 10 games this year.
That's a player that closer resembles what he's been the last two seasons and what the Wolves traded for. Yes, the defense will never be a strength for D-Lo, but the shot creation and shot-making has been there in good volume. We might not enjoy his play style, but the production is difficult to ignore. Good D-Lo has shown up far more than bad D-Lo has this year despite what our memory wants us to think.
It's absolutely imperative that Minnesota gets that player next to a healthy Karl-Anthony Towns and Malik Beasley, and hopefully some of the younger, intriguing pieces can ascend into meaningful roles displacing the washed veterans currently getting significant minutes.
Edit: That's a TS% of .591 over those 10 games.
Yep, and if you ignore the four days this month where I slept at my desk all day, plus the other two where I was sick, I'm actually a really good employee :)
I'm not saying your guy is horrible, I'm just saying that he's mediocre at best and when one your two highest usage players is mediocre at best, you're in trouble. And when he's overpaid too, then you're in a lot of trouble. When klay is healthy, gs has two great high usage players and Wiggins fits well because he's a good teammate who knows his role. I'd be a lot less critical of dlo if he wasn't our high usage guy that we had to live and die by. Wiggins seems to fit a lot better as a complementary piece next to a GOOD high usage guard. We never had that and now we probably lost a big opportunity to get it next year because we our genius gm threw in a 1st and 2nd to a one for one swap that was basically perfectly equal in value without picks. Yay!
Camden0916 wrote:It's really unfortunate that D'Angelo Russell's had four absolute stinkers this season because outside of those four games -- Wizards, Lakers, Spurs, Hawks -- he's been pretty decent across the board, especially considering the circumstances (ie. playing without Karl-Anthony Towns for a number of games). Those handful of bad games have left a sour taste in some fans' mouths, understandably. And while there is no amnestying poor games from the record, especially from a notable player that makes max money, Russell's been an entirely different -- for the better -- player in the other 10 games this year.
That's a player that closer resembles what he's been the last two seasons and what the Wolves traded for. Yes, the defense will never be a strength for D-Lo, but the shot creation and shot-making has been there in good volume. We might not enjoy his play style, but the production is difficult to ignore. Good D-Lo has shown up far more than bad D-Lo has this year despite what our memory wants us to think.
It's absolutely imperative that Minnesota gets that player next to a healthy Karl-Anthony Towns and Malik Beasley, and hopefully some of the younger, intriguing pieces can ascend into meaningful roles displacing the washed veterans currently getting significant minutes.
Edit: That's a TS% of .591 over those 10 games.
Yep, and if you ignore the four days this month where I slept at my desk all day, plus the other two where I was sick, I'm actually a really good employee :)
I'm not saying your guy is horrible, I'm just saying that he's mediocre at best and when one your two highest usage players is mediocre at best, you're in trouble. And when he's overpaid too, then you're in a lot of trouble. When klay is healthy, gs has two great high usage players and Wiggins fits well because he's a good teammate who knows his role. I'd be a lot less critical of dlo if he wasn't our high usage guy that we had to live and die by. Wiggins seems to fit a lot better as a complementary piece next to a GOOD high usage guard. We never had that and now we probably lost a big opportunity to get it next year because we our genius gm threw in a 1st and 2nd to a one for one swap that was basically perfectly equal in value without picks. Yay!
Using the work analogy, if your group/department had 14 projects to complete and you personally produced adequately or better on 10 of them, then it's clearly ridiculous, in my opinion, to place significant blame on you for all 14, which is what has happened for some fans on the board and off with D'Angelo Russell this season. Minnesota has much bigger problems to correct before determining if Russell is or isn't a fit with this team.
Also, he's not the caliber of player that can drag a team to victories nightly, as there are actually few of those guys in the league currently, and whether you like him or not that's the position he's in without Karl-Anthony Towns in the lineup. Towns is the number one in Minnesota. D-Lo is supposed to be the number two. We can argue whether he's even a number two, but he has only been in that position four times this season and five times since he was traded. It's like crushing Bradley Beal for not being able to force the Washington Wizards to a winning season since he became the main guy. Bottom line, the Wolves need Towns to get healthy and back on the court with a healthy Russell.
Also, we've seen Russell at his best and he was an All-Star -- or All-Star replacement for those that want to differentiate between the two -- which is not a mediocre level of basketball as you're making it seem. That's a level of basketball that Andrew Wiggins has not and likely will not ever get to. Russell's proven that his attainable ceiling is higher and Minnesota paid for that as a change was clearly needed. Wiggins' stay in Minnesota was proven to not lead to wins. We still don't know if this will work with Russell because the duo has only played five games together and in the meantime the front office has made mistakes in adding complimentary players. That's where we are today. Yay is right!
Camden wrote:It's really unfortunate that D'Angelo Russell's had four absolute stinkers this season because outside of those four games -- Wizards, Lakers, Spurs, Hawks -- he's been pretty decent across the board, especially considering the circumstances (ie. playing without Karl-Anthony Towns for a number of games). Those handful of bad games have left a sour taste in some fans' mouths, understandably. And while there is no amnestying poor games from the record, especially from a notable player that makes max money, Russell's been an entirely different -- for the better -- player in the other 10 games this year.
That's a player that closer resembles what he's been the last two seasons and what the Wolves traded for. Yes, the defense will never be a strength for D-Lo, but the shot creation and shot-making has been there in good volume. We might not enjoy his play style, but the production is difficult to ignore. Good D-Lo has shown up far more than bad D-Lo has this year despite what our memory wants us to think.
It's absolutely imperative that Minnesota gets that player next to a healthy Karl-Anthony Towns and Malik Beasley, and hopefully some of the younger, intriguing pieces can ascend into meaningful roles displacing the washed veterans currently getting significant minutes.
Edit: That's a TS% of .591 over those 10 games.
I'm not going to argue with you on the individually-based "counting" stats and percentages. Those 10-game numbers are good. He's an amazingly skilled player. We really need his outside shooting.
But he's the PG and can impact the game in soooooo many ways beyond his own individual box score stats. How many easy baskets does he create for others? Does he get dribble drive penetration that draws an extra defender into the paint? Likewise, how well does he contain dribble penetration defensively? How is his shot selection? Does he feed the hot hand? Does he push the pace to create a higher percentage look because the defense is on their heels? How quick are his decisions?
I will submit that he sucks at nearly every non-box score aspect of being an NBA point guard. I think if he were surrounded by a few elite defenders and had a wing that could put the ball on the deck, he'd be fine. But good luck finding those guys when he's already sopping up $30M+ of payroll.
Camden wrote:It's really unfortunate that D'Angelo Russell's had four absolute stinkers this season because outside of those four games -- Wizards, Lakers, Spurs, Hawks -- he's been pretty decent across the board, especially considering the circumstances (ie. playing without Karl-Anthony Towns for a number of games). Those handful of bad games have left a sour taste in some fans' mouths, understandably. And while there is no amnestying poor games from the record, especially from a notable player that makes max money, Russell's been an entirely different -- for the better -- player in the other 10 games this year.
That's a player that closer resembles what he's been the last two seasons and what the Wolves traded for. Yes, the defense will never be a strength for D-Lo, but the shot creation and shot-making has been there in good volume. We might not enjoy his play style, but the production is difficult to ignore. Good D-Lo has shown up far more than bad D-Lo has this year despite what our memory wants us to think.
It's absolutely imperative that Minnesota gets that player next to a healthy Karl-Anthony Towns and Malik Beasley, and hopefully some of the younger, intriguing pieces can ascend into meaningful roles displacing the washed veterans currently getting significant minutes.
Edit: That's a TS% of .591 over those 10 games.
I'm not going to argue with you on the individually-based "counting" stats and percentages. Those 10-game numbers are good. He's an amazingly skilled player. We really need his outside shooting.
But he's the PG and can impact the game in soooooo many ways beyond his own individual box score stats. How many easy baskets does he create for others? Does he get dribble drive penetration that draws an extra defender into the paint? Likewise, how well does he contain dribble penetration defensively? How is his shot selection? Does he feed the hot hand? Does he push the pace to create a higher percentage look because the defense is on their heels? How quick are his decisions?
I will submit that he sucks at nearly every non-box score aspect of being an NBA point guard. I think if he were surrounded by a few elite defenders and had a wing that could put the ball on the deck, he'd be fine. But good luck finding those guys when he's already sopping up $30M+ of payroll.
Sure, the game is absolutely about more than individual box score stats, and contrary to majority opinion here I think he does contribute outside the traditional stat sheet. The idea that I'm laying out is that it's unreasonable to place the bulk of the blame for this season on a guy that is putting up those kinds of numbers, as basic as they may be. Somebody has to put the ball in the hoop and that's what he does. This team just has much bigger issues and holes to fix on a nightly basis before D-Lo should even be mentioned.
Those are all essential questions of what makes a point guard good. In my opinion, the answer is yes to all except for two -- dribble drive penetration and defensive containment, though I'd say he's slightly improved on the latter so far. What he lacks in driving to the hole, he makes up for with his ability to space the floor. You simply cannot give him any room to shoot the basketball, which in turn opens driving lanes for slashers or room to operate in the post. It would certainly help, however, if this team actually had capable ball-handlers or a healthy KAT in the lineup to take advantage of that. Right now we're not getting the most of D-Lo's off-ball ability for those reasons.
Also, I can't see how we can truly criticize Russell's ability as a facilitator this season. He's been comparable to Ricky Rubio in this regard and it's maybe the one area of Rubio's game that hasn't deviated from what he's produced in the past. They are distributing the ball with similar results. Rubio's AST% of 32.8 squeaks ahead of Russell's 30.9 thus far. Their styles are different, no doubt, but both are setting up their teammates.
What I think we'd agree on wholeheartedly is that this front office hasn't done much of anything to mitigate D-Lo -- or Towns' -- weaknesses let alone amplify their strengths. Instead, they've arguably made them more glaring by adding other defensively/offensively challenged role players around them. I can't hold those two responsible for that. Gersson Rosas and Ryan Saunders have thrown warm bodies around them and basically told them to make the best of it. That's the biggest issue we have right now -- not our starting point guard.
It's also difficult to be a good NBA point guard when you are a below average athlete. He's not fast, he's not quick, he can't jump. And then he compounds that with a lack of hustle. He relies on his length and a good skill set including an accurate jump shot. He negates some of that with poor shot selection. I think he would be a good floor spacer on a team with a good PG who can penetrate. I'd play him off the ball as much as possible, although he does a good job running the P&R.
Camden wrote:It's really unfortunate that D'Angelo Russell's had four absolute stinkers this season because outside of those four games -- Wizards, Lakers, Spurs, Hawks -- he's been pretty decent across the board, especially considering the circumstances (ie. playing without Karl-Anthony Towns for a number of games). Those handful of bad games have left a sour taste in some fans' mouths, understandably. And while there is no amnestying poor games from the record, especially from a notable player that makes max money, Russell's been an entirely different -- for the better -- player in the other 10 games this year.
That's a player that closer resembles what he's been the last two seasons and what the Wolves traded for. Yes, the defense will never be a strength for D-Lo, but the shot creation and shot-making has been there in good volume. We might not enjoy his play style, but the production is difficult to ignore. Good D-Lo has shown up far more than bad D-Lo has this year despite what our memory wants us to think.
It's absolutely imperative that Minnesota gets that player next to a healthy Karl-Anthony Towns and Malik Beasley, and hopefully some of the younger, intriguing pieces can ascend into meaningful roles displacing the washed veterans currently getting significant minutes.
Edit: That's a TS% of .591 over those 10 games.
I'm not going to argue with you on the individually-based "counting" stats and percentages. Those 10-game numbers are good. He's an amazingly skilled player. We really need his outside shooting.
But he's the PG and can impact the game in soooooo many ways beyond his own individual box score stats. How many easy baskets does he create for others? Does he get dribble drive penetration that draws an extra defender into the paint? Likewise, how well does he contain dribble penetration defensively? How is his shot selection? Does he feed the hot hand? Does he push the pace to create a higher percentage look because the defense is on their heels? How quick are his decisions?
I will submit that he sucks at nearly every non-box score aspect of being an NBA point guard. I think if he were surrounded by a few elite defenders and had a wing that could put the ball on the deck, he'd be fine. But good luck finding those guys when he's already sopping up $30M+ of payroll.
Sure, the game is absolutely about more than individual box score stats, and contrary to majority opinion here I think he does contribute outside the traditional stat sheet. The idea that I'm laying out is that it's unreasonable to place the bulk of the blame for this season on a guy that is putting up those kinds of numbers, as basic as they may be. Somebody has to put the ball in the hoop and that's what he does. This team just has much bigger issues and holes to fix on a nightly basis before D-Lo should even be mentioned.
Those are all essential questions of what makes a point guard good. In my opinion, the answer is yes to all except for two -- dribble drive penetration and defensive containment, though I'd say he's slightly improved on the latter so far. What he lacks in driving to the hole, he makes up for with his ability to space the floor. You simply cannot give him any room to shoot the basketball, which in turn opens driving lanes for slashers or room to operate in the post. It would certainly help, however, if this team actually had capable ball-handlers or a healthy KAT in the lineup to take advantage of that. Right now we're not getting the most of D-Lo's off-ball ability for those reasons.
Also, I can't see how we can truly criticize Russell's ability as a facilitator this season. He's been comparable to Ricky Rubio in this regard and it's maybe the one area of Rubio's game that hasn't deviated from what he's produced in the past. They are distributing the ball with similar results. Rubio's AST% of 32.8 squeaks ahead of Russell's 30.9 thus far. Their styles are different, no doubt, but both are setting up their teammates.
What I think we'd agree on wholeheartedly is that this front office hasn't done much of anything to mitigate D-Lo -- or Towns' -- weaknesses let alone amplify their strengths. Instead, they've arguably made them more glaring by adding other defensively/offensively challenged role players around them. I can't hold those two responsible for that. Gersson Rosas and Ryan Saunders have thrown warm bodies around them and basically told them to make the best of it. That's the biggest issue we have right now -- not our starting point guard.
I will definitely agree that this team sucks with or without DLO because of the crappy drafting and inability to develop one-way defensive types to even marginal threats from outside the arc. But that's my main argument: He isn't a difference maker. I truly believe our chances of winning are no better or worse whether he's playing or not. What a waste of $30M in cap room. Signing Wiggins to that max deal was the original sin and DLO is now ensuring we keep paying for it.
Read this morning in my local paper and its a good and fair read of the trade:
FULL EMBRACE
Wiggins finds success, peace with Warriors after T-Wolves exit
By Wes Goldberg wgoldberg@bayareanewsgroup.com
Even Stephen Curry wanted to know the answer. When asked if Andrew Wiggins showed "extra emotion" playing his former team Monday night, Curry deferred to his teammate.
"You'll have to ask him in a moment," Curry said of Wiggins, who had 23 points, six rebounds, three blocks and three steals in the Warriors' 130-108 win over the Timberwolves at Chase Center. "I'm actually interested to hear his answer."
After fielding a few more questions, Curry left the podium and Wiggins sat down. He was the last Warriors player in the postgame interview session, talking to reporters after franchise stars Curry and Draymond Green, as well as No. 2 pick James Wiseman. He was asked the same question: Did it feel good to beat his former team, the one that traded him 5 ½ seasons after ticketing him as the franchise savior.
"It's all love for those guys," said Wiggins, smiling. "But I feel like it takes the competitiveness to the next level. I feel like we did our job and I'm happy we got the win, most importantly."
Years removed from being the No. 1 pick with weighty expectations on his shoulders,
Wiggins looked relaxed, comfortable, at peace.
This is the Wiggins the Warriors had hoped to discover when, in February, they traded D'Angelo Russell and two others for Wiggins and a protected first-round pick. No longer saddled with leading an offense and answering for a franchise, Wiggins has settled into a supporting role and is having the best season of his career.
It's fair to say that the early returns on the trade that shifted the direction of two franchises so far favors the Warriors.
In Golden State, Wiggins is tasked with playing consistent defense, running the floor and making open 3-pointers. For a team that over the past two years lost Kevin Durant, Andre Iguodala and Klay Thompson (to season-ending injuries), he's become the go-to perimeter stopper.
Having guarded the likes of Kawhi Leonard, Damian Lillard and Pascal Siakam, Wiggins is holding players he defends to 6.7 percentage points below their season shooting averages - among the best wing defenders in the league. After his threeblock performance against the Timberwolves, Wiggins ranks seventh in the NBA in blocks (28), and is the only non-center in the top 15.
He's come a long way from being labeled as one of the worst defenders in the league. That's partly because he doesn't have to expend as much energy on offense for these Warriors. Wiggins is posting the lowest usage rate since his rookie season and the highest True Shooting percentage of his career (55.5). Asked to do less, he's been more efficient.
"This is just how the NBA goes. Most players are subject to circumstance and I think we have a really good situation for Andrew," said Warriors head coach Steve Kerr. "He's doing everything we've asked and defensively he's been fantastic. He's a joy to coach, in a good rhythm on offense and a great addition to our team." Meanwhile, the trade has not been as fruitful for the Timberwolves. Neither Omari Spellman nor Jacob Evans, the two role players traded in the deal, still plays for Minnesota, and Russell has played only five games alongside fellow franchise cornerstone Karl-Anthony Towns. The two were supposed to form a high-octane two-man game between point guard and center, but Minnesota has yet to see many on-court results as Russell is sidelined with a quad injury and Towns missed most of this season with a wrist injury before he tested positive for COVID-19.
Though Russell was productive in Towns' absence, averag ing 20.5 points and 5.5 assists per game, the Timberwolves have dropped 11 of the 14 games he's played this season. These are the sort of "empty calories" that prompted the lottery-bound Warriors to move on less than a year after acquiring Russell in a complicated sign-and-trade with Brooklyn in the summer of 2019.
If things didn't work out in Golden State, Minnesota was always a likely destination for Russell. Timberwolves GM Gersson Rosas coveted him during free agency, only to be beaten out by the Warriors' max contract offer. They were ready to move on from Wiggins who, after playing for four coaches, could not shape-shift into the sort of alpha they needed. Under Flip Saunders, Sam Mitchell, Tom Thibodeau and Ryan Saunders, Wiggins produced points, but not many wins. But always, he was well-liked in the locker room because of his easygoing personality.
"I'll always be a believer in Andrew," said current Timberwolves head coach Ryan Saunders.
Next season, Wiggins will play alongside Curry, Green, Thompson and Wiseman. The Warriors view the 25-year-old Wiggins, under contract through 2023, as part of their long-term core.
"It's a great organization. They treat me with love and respect here and treat my family well," said Wiggins, who added he hopes to end his career with the Warriors. "Why not? I would love to." Because of the trade with Minnesota, the Warriors may also have the means to add another foundational piece this upcoming offseason. The first-round pick Minnesota owes Golden State is protected for selections 1-3 in 2021 and, if it does not convey, is unprotected in 2022. (The Warriors also got an additional second-round pick from Minnesota in last season's deadline deal that they used to help facilitate the trade for Kelly Oubre Jr. before the season.) If the Timberwolves finish the season with the second-worst record in the league, as they have now, they would have a 40.1% chance of landing a topthree pick in the draft lottery and keeping the selection. In other words, there'd be a greater chance - nearly 60% - that the Warriors would get to take a player early in a widely heralded 2021 draft class.
Losing the pick could be disastrous for the Timber- wolves, but a downright coup for the Warriors. Adding a player such as Cade Cunningham, Jalen Suggs, Jalen Green or Jonathan Kuminga would pair Wiseman with another elite talent who can help bridge the gap between Golden State's present and future. .
For now, Wiggins will try to help the Warriors get back to the playoffs. After stumbling to a 15-50 record last season, the Warriors are 9-8 after Monday's win against the Timberwolves. When the lead was cut to eight, it was Curry who stepped up and scored 15 of his 36 points in the fourth quarter.
No longer asked to take over the game, Wiggins played a complementary role. He attacked the basket against a scrambled defense, knocked down open shots and tallied timely blocks and steals. More than enough as he tries to fill the void left by top-notch role players such as Iguodala and Shaun Livingston.
"A great group of guys around me," Wiggins said, citing Curry, Green and Wiseman. "I can do what I do best and use my athleticism to the best of my advantage on both sides of the court." Ahead of tonight's rematch against the Timberwolves, the Warriors, like Wiggins, can take comfort in what so far has been a good match.
Cam, DLO is dead last in the entire NBA in plus/minus (excluding guys who have played fewer than 3 games) and 468th out of 470 players when you include all NBA players. But you think it was a great trade giving up both draft picks in next year's draft (which is supposed to be a very good draft class) and Wiggins who is having the best season of his career and paying a max salary to a guy whose on-court performance has been outright dreadful. Cam, its about time that you admit you have been wrong about DLO instead of digging a deeper hole and doubling down on stupid.
