What would your offseason moves have been?

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Yeah, the Amir vs. Taj debate is kind of similar to Dieng vs. Taj when talking about playing the PF position. I believe it gets very murky because you have to look at the matchups. Amir (and Dieng for that matter) might be a better player on paper, but only in the right situations. There is a reason Amir, for example, only played 15 minutes per game in the playoffs.

I haven't watched detailed breakdown of film of these three guys, but my sense is Taj is probably the best of the three on switching onto perimeter guards and wings and being able to contain them. That is a HUGE skill to have in today's NBA. By the same token, Taj can also offer some rim protection and rebounding. So he sort of balances traditional big man skills with perimeter skills defensively.

Do I think we still overpaid for Taj? Yes. I'm just commenting on the nuances one has to consider when comparing him to other players.

[Lipoli390]

Yeah, the Amir vs. Taj debate is kind of similar to Dieng vs. Taj when talking about playing the PF position. I believe it gets very murky because you have to look at the matchups. Amir (and Dieng for that matter) might be a better player on paper, but only in the right situations. There is a reason Amir, for example, only played 15 minutes per game in the playoffs.

I haven't watched detailed breakdown of film of these three guys, but my sense is Taj is probably the best of the three on switching onto perimeter guards and wings and being able to contain them. That is a HUGE skill to have in today's NBA. By the same token, Taj can also offer some rim protection and rebounding. So he sort of balances traditional big man skills with perimeter skills defensively.

Do I think we still overpaid for Taj? Yes. I'm just commenting on the nuances one has to consider when comparing him to other players.

Q - Don't you think Luc can do what Taj can do -- i.e., switching out on perimeter guys and protecting the paint? In addition, Luc showed some 3-point range last season -- something we've never seen and never will see from Taj. Could we have gotten Luc on a 2-year minimum like Houston? I don't see why not. But I'm sure we could have gotten for a LOT less than $28 million over two years. I'm convinced we could have signed Luc for no more than $4 million, which would have left us with another $10 million for sigining a CJ Miles, keeping Bazz or something else. And I don't think we would have lost much if anything defensively or offensively with Luc instead of Taj.

I read an article the other day about the historical failure of the dual head coach/PBO role. The recent end to Doc Rivers' dual role is yet another example. Thibs the head coach who loves Taj needed someone in the organization above him to say no to the $28 million deal. As a result, I don't think we optimized our assets this summer. To be an elite team in the West, you need an elite front office. And I don't think you can have an elite front office by Western Conference standards with the dual role Thibs was given. The article points out that it has worked for the Spurs because Buford is such an exceptional GM and Pop defers to him as he did when he agreed to give up his favorite, George Hill, in the K. Leonard deal. Layden is not in Buford's league and Thibs, I'm told, doesn't defer to anyone. Not surprise there.

[60WinTim]

I loved the idea of adding Luc. But he is a 3/4 bench guy whereas Taj is a 4/5 guy that absolutely can be your starting PF.

Out of all the Taj-alternatives being discussed, it's pretty easy to argue that Taj is best suited to be our starting PF. All the others are bench players, at least as far as PF is concerned. Did we overpay? As everyone has said, yes. But did we get the best guy for the position that was available? Yes. (although it sounds like we took a shot at Milsap -- but the price was too high)

Of all our starting positions, PF has often been widely acknowledged as our weakest spot. Taj fixes that. I have a hard time being down on the Taj signing.

[Monster]

Yeah, the Amir vs. Taj debate is kind of similar to Dieng vs. Taj when talking about playing the PF position. I believe it gets very murky because you have to look at the matchups. Amir (and Dieng for that matter) might be a better player on paper, but only in the right situations. There is a reason Amir, for example, only played 15 minutes per game in the playoffs.

I haven't watched detailed breakdown of film of these three guys, but my sense is Taj is probably the best of the three on switching onto perimeter guards and wings and being able to contain them. That is a HUGE skill to have in today's NBA. By the same token, Taj can also offer some rim protection and rebounding. So he sort of balances traditional big man skills with perimeter skills defensively.

Do I think we still overpaid for Taj? Yes. I'm just commenting on the nuances one has to consider when comparing him to other players.

Q - Don't you think Luc can do what Taj can do -- i.e., switching out on perimeter guys and protecting the paint? In addition, Luc showed some 3-point range last season -- something we've never seen and never will see from Taj. Could we have gotten Luc on a 2-year minimum like Houston? I don't see why not. But I'm sure we could have gotten for a LOT less than $28 million over two years. I'm convinced we could have signed Luc for no more than $4 million, which would have left us with another $10 million for sigining a CJ Miles, keeping Bazz or something else. And I don't think we would have lost much if anything defensively or offensively with Luc instead of Taj.

I read an article the other day about the historical failure of the dual head coach/PBO role. The recent end to Doc Rivers' dual role is yet another example. Thibs the head coach who loves Taj needed someone in the organization above him to say no to the $28 million deal. As a result, I don't think we optimized our assets this summer. To be an elite team in the West, you need an elite front office. And I don't think you can have an elite front office by Western Conference standards with the dual role Thibs was given. The article points out that it has worked for the Spurs because Buford is such an exceptional GM and Pop defers to him as he did when he agreed to give up his favorite, George Hill, in the K. Leonard deal. Layden is not in Buford's league and Thibs, I'm told, doesn't defer to anyone. Not surprise there.

Doc Rivers isn't the main guy anymore but the guy he hired is the guy now. I'm sure Doc will have a ton of influence going forward. It's funny the Dunc'd On guys have not given Thibs a very good grade as an executive even though they think he absolutely fleeced the Bulls for Butler and that's probably the main thing that matters the most. If Taj (or Aldrich) is the worst contract this franchise gives out I can probably live with that.

The question I brought up wasn't whether Taj was overpaid it was whether it made sense in Mikkeman's offseason to pay Amir 11 million per or sign a couple other guys basically like Lip has been saying. I think Taj is a better player and if you are going for value and waiting things out like the other moves why jump the gun and sign Amir to that kind of money? I'm with Lip is saying sign a couple other guys for less and/or maybe keep Bazz.

Luc is a nice player but I don't think he protects the rim like Taj does. he would have been a pretty nice fit here though although maybe a bit redundant if we were getting Carroll but I would be plenty ok with that.

One thing to consider with Bazz is that Glen said they made him an offer this offseason and I think he said he thought it was a good offer. I doubt they completely low balled him. So what did Bazz turn down? Did they think of Bazz was willing to turn that down they had no chance of him coming back? Fast forward to August. Was what the Wolves offered more way than what any other team offered him and therefore you could say the Wolves valued him more than anyone else? If so would that create some goodwill between the 2 parties? Probably not but because I irrationally hold out hope for a Bazz return and him becoming more useful I continue to point out that if he signed here and played well the Wolves would regain his Bird rights and therefore would be able to sign him to more money. Also if he was traded the next team may get those rights as well which could be a real good thing for Bazz because the money next summer is going to be harder to come by although I suppose he could be hoping for a midlevel deal which wouldn't be too bad. Getting a chunk of an exception this offseason is probably what they are hoping for this year on a 1 year deal. The problem at some point could be that there aren't much better opportunities for playing time than what the Wolves have to offer. Right now Bazz would be the first SF off the bench unless that's Belly.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Lip - As Tim said, Luc is more of a 3/4 whereas Taj is a pure 4 that can probably play better on the interior than Luc. But you make a good point about how we deployed our assets. Perhaps spending minimal $ on Luc to play small ball 4 and some backup 3 would have freed up more money to go pursue someone like CJ Miles or make a run at Joe Ingles.

Tim - I think you are (kind of) right about Taj. Although one needs to question why his minutes are only in the low to mid 20s for a guy that is supposedly such a rock solid starting PF. I think the issue is on offense, where he has minimal range and coaches tend to sub him out for another floor spacer. If Bjelly returns to form, I think he'll be playing a lot more down the stretch of big games than Taj. We'll see.

Back to Lip - On the POBO/Coach thing, my hope is that Thibs eventually gives up his head coach role and hires a replacement as he retreats to a full-time front office role, ala Pat Riley.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Lip - As Tim said, Luc is more of a 3/4 whereas Taj is a pure 4 that can probably play better on the interior than Luc. But you make a good point about how we deployed our assets. Perhaps spending minimal $ on Luc to play small ball 4 and some backup 3 would have freed up more money to go pursue someone like CJ Miles or make a run at Joe Ingles.

Tim - I think you are (kind of) right about Taj. Although one needs to question why his minutes are only in the low to mid 20s for a guy that is supposedly such a rock solid starting PF. I think the issue is on offense, where he has minimal range and coaches tend to sub him out for another floor spacer. If Bjelly returns to form, I think he'll be playing a lot more down the stretch of big games than Taj. We'll see.

Back to Lip - On the POBO/Coach thing, my hope is that Thibs eventually gives up his head coach role and hires a replacement as he retreats to a full-time front office role, ala Pat Riley.[/quote]

Yeah, that's my hope too, although it probably doesn't happen for another year. Only two lottery teams (Detroit and Minnesota) are now experimenting with the same guy as POBO and coach...not a very good endorsement. Thibs seemed out of step with the new NBA as a coach last year and the team underachieved, and while I'm hoping he will make some necessary changes in his coaching style in his second year, I am not optimistic. On the other hand, while I didn't love some of his post-Butler moves this off-season, I think he may have some potential as a POBO. I've never liked the idea of one guy handling both roles (and the league trend appears to be away from it), and I would prefer to see Thibs in the POBO role over coaching.

What do others think? Are there still some who like the idea of one guy being both POBO and coach? If not, what role would you prefer to see Thibs stay in?

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

LST, Kind of like building a contending roster, I don't believe there is just one way to run a basketball franchise. I think the combined role is fine for now, but ultimately I think a more cerebral/ego manager may need to take the reins from Thibs. In my idealized version of events, Thibs is the guy that injects discipline, toughness, and defense into the team culture over a period of 3-5 years. And once the team achieves a certain level of success and as KAT and Wig become stars, he hands the reins over to someone that is more of a people manager and he stays on as POBO.

Not sure it will end that way, but that's my dream......

[Monster]

LST, Kind of like building a contending roster, I don't believe there is just one way to run a basketball franchise. I think the combined role is fine for now, but ultimately I think a more cerebral/ego manager may need to take the reins from Thibs. In my idealized version of events, Thibs is the guy that injects discipline, toughness, and defense into the team culture over a period of 3-5 years. And once the team achieves a certain level of success and as KAT and Wig become stars, he hands the reins over to someone that is more of a people manager and he stays on as POBO.

Not sure it will end that way, but that's my dream......

I've been thinking about this also and I don't think it's crazy to think someday Thibs hands off the coaching gig to Ryan Saunders. Sure it sounds like a bit of a homer take but Ryan just signed a 3 year deal and word is that Ryan is a grinder and Thibs likes him. He is well thought of arpund the league and could have easily gone somewhere else if that was what he wanted to do. I'm sure Glen wants to see him stay around and why wouldn't he wan to stay here and keep building what his dad started but yeah. His work coaching in the summer league has been impressive and while the roster didn't seem all that exciting 3 guys have now signed 2 way deals with other teams. Oh and Burton was the 6th overall pick in the Korean basketball league!!!! :)

The point about this organization Q brought up is that Layden and Thibs aren't exactly people people. My guess is both guys are probably a bit more friendly or whatever as humans than we see but I don't think either guy is a recruiter people person type. Maybe one of there other top guys in the front office helps with that like Noah Croom who used to work as an agent. Of course if these guys win and develop a winning culture like the Spurs there is only so much to sell but Jon K has said that they didn't really communicate all that much to Rubio and that frustrated Rubio and was part of the reason he said he was willing to move on. Maybe that wasn't a mistake though maybe they really didn't want to promise or smooth over something they weren't sure they were going to keep around long term. Maybe they knew Rubio would have a market this summer.

Ultimately could it be possible that Thibs like Flip (but I'm a different way) is actually more suited to be a basketball executive than a coach? It's hard to see right now (he would be less likely to have a heart attack on the sidelines) and we don't have a lot to go on (who knew Flip had so many good executive qualities?) but it will be important and interesting to see how it plays out. I think Layden is more of a legit basketball executive than Milt was so I think it's a bit of a different dynamic than when Flip had that role with Milt as his right hand guy. Milt did just get hired as the assistant GM with the Bucks. Regardless remember that Glen seemed to want Flip to give up coaching and run the franchise. He made some comment after they hired Thibs to the effect they may have ended up here which sounded like he may have pushed for Thibs as coach even if Flip was still around. I think Glen generally stays out of the way but it's clear he stays involved and has input into what happens going forward. If Doc Rivers can get demoted (although I bet it was somewhat mutual) then Thibs may have to choose one or the other role at some point. I think the main thing these coaches want is not so much ultimate power as much as being able to have real legit input and not have some other basketball schmo decide whether they keep their job or not.

Let's see how Thibs coaching goes this coming year and I am also interested in how they fill out the G-league coaching ranks etc. I'm assuming John Lucas will have a role there (he was with the Wolves at summer league) and is plenty deserving. Did anyone else see the Spurs hired Blake Ahern to be their G-league coach?

[Lipoli390]

LST, Kind of like building a contending roster, I don't believe there is just one way to run a basketball franchise. I think the combined role is fine for now, but ultimately I think a more cerebral/ego manager may need to take the reins from Thibs. In my idealized version of events, Thibs is the guy that injects discipline, toughness, and defense into the team culture over a period of 3-5 years. And once the team achieves a certain level of success and as KAT and Wig become stars, he hands the reins over to someone that is more of a people manager and he stays on as POBO.

Not sure it will end that way, but that's my dream......

I love your dream, Q. But like most lofty dreams, it won't come true. Thibs would give up the POBO role long before he'd give up coaching. He loves coaching. That who he is and who he's always been. I'm convinced he would have come here as head coach and GM with someone else being hired as POBO. He wanted desperately to be a head coach again and the Wolves were far and away his best opportunity.

[Lipoli390]

Great analysis, Monster. But I see Scott Layden and a mid-level bureaucrat. He'll make the calls and get the table set for you. But he's not the brightest bulb and, according to folks I've talked to in the organization, he entirely under Thibs' thumb. Actually, that's OK because looking at what Layden did as PBOB of the Knicks, the one time he was actually in charge, I cringe at the thought of him having any final decision-making authority with the Wolves.

Honestly, you look at the moves this summer and they are all covered with Thibs' finger prints. The Wolves acquired Thibs' two favorite players -- Butler and Gibson -- from his days as Chicago's head coach. The Wolves also effectively swapped Rubio for probably the closest thing to Derrick Rose available on the market -- a penetrating, score-first PG named Jeff Teague. One of the most telling moments this summer was when Layden stated publicly that Rubio would have a long career here. Just days later, Rubio was traded. You don't have to read between the lines to know that the Rubio/Teague deal was all Thibs. The only decision that seemed to have Layden's finger prints on it was the Justin Patton pick. I say that because Layden did more of the talking about Patton and he talked about how our scouting staff loved him.

So this is Thibs' team. And it's a team that could have a great next couple of seasons. Dave Aldridge projects the Wolves as the 6th best team in the entire League. I can see the Wolves finishing as a top 3 team in the West behind the Warriors and Rockets even though I think a 5th or 6th seed is more realistic. On the other hand, our lack of depth at the wing position leaves us very vulnerable in the event Butler or Wiggins goes down for 10-20 games as Butler often has.