Minnesota Sports Forum

I'd give Jokic the slight edge right now as a courtesy to him for how good Denver was last year, but if they swapped teams tomorrow I'd bet the Nuggets are a better team with Towns and the Wolves don't get better or worse with Jokic. Team environment and personnel matter in these discussions.

The ability to make your teammates better is what separates Jokic and KAT. KAT is better at getting his, but that's not the most valuable trait.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:The ability to make your teammates better is what separates Jokic and KAT. KAT is better at getting his, but that's not the most valuable trait.

Who exactly on the Nuggets is playing above their level because they're teammates with Jokic? This comment is exactly what my previous post was referring to. We cannot keep ignoring the fact that Denver has had a much more talented roster than Minnesota has had since both of these bigs entered the league.

First I'll state the obvious that Jokic, Gobert and Towns are all very good players with diverse strengths that are all easily to appreciate. Denver was the 2nd best team record wise in the west. That's pretty good. They had a ton of depth (or guys that stepped up to play) and they had some of their own injuries. Towns team the Wolves had about everything go wrong you can imagine he even missed a few games himself. He still got to 36 wins which ain't too shabby. Gobert had a career year and might be the best regular season defensive player/force in the league. Jokic put up nearly 20/11/7. That's pretty ridiculous for a big guy that turned 24 in February. I get comparing these guys but they are all REALLY good and different and honestly IMHO the separation between them is difficult to decipher because of various factors and team situations.

This difference between KAT and Jokic is his team having wide open shots early in the shot clock because of elite screen setting and passing vs having contested shots late in the shot clock when first options dont work.

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Our offensive rating was 7.3 points worse with KAT off the court and Denver's was 7.1 points worse with Jokic off the court, so KAT actually had a slightly bigger influence on the Wolves' offense than Jokic did on Denver's.

I don't see the big difference between a guy that is great at setting people up versus a guy that is great at getting baskets efficiently. That isn't just "getting stats". That's actually a skill that does help the team. Now if KAT were a chucker just getting volume points without much efficiency, it would be a different story. As it is, he is by far our best option to shoot and score. We don't have the competent wings Denver has.

Jokic had a 113.3 offensive rating to Towns' 112.2 (nbadotcom). I'm not sure how measuring the strength of their backups with off-court numbers is a good way to evaluate how good someone is versus measuring the guys behind them more. I'm not sure how measuring the strength of their backups with off-court numbers is a good way to evaluate how good someone is versus measuring the guys behind them more. He also had a 5.8 net rating to Towns' 0.9. Almost everything Towns was putting up offensively was being given back on the other end of the court. Jokic isn't worlds better than Towns but he is better and his play style makes his teammates better as well.

O-rating by itself is not as complete a picture as On/Off. And their O-ratings aren't even all that different from each other.

There is nothing we can conclude by looking at the On/Off or O-rating by itself that would suggest Jokic somehow makes his team better than KAT or KAT somehow makes his team better than Jokic. It's a wash statistically.

Paul Milsap has been a factually better player his entire career compared to Taj Gibson at the PF position. Jokic didn't suddenly lift his game to another level. In fact, I'd argue one of the biggest differences between last year's Denver team and the year before is the relative health of Paul Milsap.

Denver has multiple guys that can actually shoot. Murray was projected as a good shooter before he was drafted. Jokic didn't turn him into one. Barton, Beasley, and Monte Morris. They had multiple perimeter guys able and willing to make 3's.

I think Jokic is a great player. So is KAT. No one will convince me that Jokic can win us 10 more games than KAT with the same roster.

Jokic is regularly giving other players wide open looks. KAT is not there yet. Whatever affinity for shooting or lack thereof certainly hasnt been enhanced by KAT. On the contrary, all of Denvers players get wide open looks because of Jokic.

Q12543 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Our offensive rating was 7.3 points worse with KAT off the court and Denver's was 7.1 points worse with Jokic off the court, so KAT actually had a slightly bigger influence on the Wolves' offense than Jokic did on Denver's.

I don't see the big difference between a guy that is great at setting people up versus a guy that is great at getting baskets efficiently. That isn't just "getting stats". That's actually a skill that does help the team. Now if KAT were a chucker just getting volume points without much efficiency, it would be a different story. As it is, he is by far our best option to shoot and score. We don't have the competent wings Denver has.

Jokic had a 113.3 offensive rating to Towns' 112.2 (nbadotcom). I'm not sure how measuring the strength of their backups with off-court numbers is a good way to evaluate how good someone is versus measuring the guys behind them more. I'm not sure how measuring the strength of their backups with off-court numbers is a good way to evaluate how good someone is versus measuring the guys behind them more. He also had a 5.8 net rating to Towns' 0.9. Almost everything Towns was putting up offensively was being given back on the other end of the court. Jokic isn't worlds better than Towns but he is better and his play style makes his teammates better as well.

O-rating by itself is not as complete a picture as On/Off. And their O-ratings aren't even all that different from each other.

There is nothing we can conclude by looking at the On/Off or O-rating by itself that would suggest Jokic somehow makes his team better than KAT or KAT somehow makes his team better than Jokic. It's a wash statistically.

Paul Milsap has been a factually better player his entire career compared to Taj Gibson at the PF position. Jokic didn't suddenly lift his game to another level. In fact, I'd argue one of the biggest differences between last year's Denver team and the year before is the relative health of Paul Milsap.

Denver has multiple guys that can actually shoot. Murray was projected as a good shooter before he was drafted. Jokic didn't turn him into one. Barton, Beasley, and Monte Morris. They had multiple perimeter guys able and willing to make 3's.

I think Jokic is a great player. So is KAT. No one will convince me that Jokic can win us 10 more games than KAT with the same roster.

I do think Jokic stepped up his game over the previous year but here are some numbers for Millsap.

Millsap had the 3rd best RPM of any PF in the league which includes 6th best DRPM of PFs. Even if you don't buy into those numbers I'd guess he made a meaningful difference. It would be interesting to see what Denver's record is the last 2 years with Millsap in the lineup.

I do think Jokic directly makes his team better but yeah with the same roster As Towns had I can't imagine him marking the team much better especially when you consider the poor shooting this team had. In addition Towns is so damn good of a scorer he is a guy teams. Absolutely plan for and have to account for defensively. That does help other players. Denver probably had at least 2-3 players that were better than any player Outside of Towns the Wolves had On the roster that played any meaningful amount of games. Bayless played 34 games for the Wolves and averages nearly 20mpg. I thought there was a chance he could be solid if called upon and a few games he was. Overall though he was bad and if you look at advanced stats and buy into them (I actually don't completely buy in but they are absolutely with looking at)....whew it was brutal.

The KAT/Jokic debate is pretty silly. They are both great young bigs in the League. I'd love to see how the Wolves would do if KAT had a roster around him that included Murray, Harris, Millsap, Malik Beasley and Will Barton - all coached by a top tier head coach. Then I'd like to see how Jokic would do surrounded by last season's Wiggins, Teague, Gibson, Okogie, Tyus Jones and Robert Covington - injuries included.

Jokic this, KAT that... Can't we all just get back to trashing Wiggins?

:)