Minnesota Sports Forum

BizarroJerry wrote:To echo Abe's point from the other thread. The NBA LOVES this stuff. Top 20 players demanding trades, hijacking the sports news...who's gonna be next?

I keep hearing that this is how European soccer is nowadays. Don't they have relegation leagues? And the top (money) teams simply get the best players most of the time?

I know it works that way in MLB a bit as far as top players. But would such a model work in the NBA? It seems to go against what the league was actively pursuing for so long.

Then again... sadly... I think a lot of today's fans (younger fans) might eat that up. Do you think today's youngsters are more into the Wolves or more into LeBron or Kyrie or Lonzo or whomever?


[Note: Anthony Davis will be rumored to be moving every time he sneezes. Giannies. Kyrie, too. And Durant. And... you get the point... but those four are at the top of the list.]

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

BizarroJerry wrote:To echo Abe's point from the other thread. The NBA LOVES this stuff. Top 20 players demanding trades, hijacking the sports news...who's gonna be next?

I keep hearing that this is how European soccer is nowadays. Don't they have relegation leagues? And the top (money) teams simply get the best players most of the time?

I know it works that way in MLB a bit as far as top players. But would such a model work in the NBA? It seems to go against what the league was actively pursuing for so long.

Then again... sadly... I think a lot of today's fans (younger fans) might eat that up. Do you think today's youngsters are more into the Wolves or more into LeBron or Kyrie or Lonzo or whomever?


[Note: Anthony Davis will be rumored to be moving every time he sneezes. Giannies. Kyrie, too. And Durant. And... you get the point... but those four are at the top of the list.]

Agree on Davis. I think the kids just follow the superstars regardless of where they play.

Everyone made it to Miami's media day so Abe might be ok at least for now.

Also worth noting that Waiters has a Foot/ankle issue still so the last I heard the Heat weren't even sure when he would be available.

60WinTim wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:Word is that Dion Waiters is being held out of the media day stuff in Miami

And then there is this: take it with a grain of salt because it comes from the internet...

@zacnba
Replying to @EthanJSkolnick
My cousin who's an nba agent who doesn't even like the heat told me that Miami will trade Dion and Jrich and they are now trying to figure out a pick to give to Minnesota trade will come soon

12:16 PM - 24 Sep 2018

Not sure what there is to figure out about a pick to give us. They've traded their 2021 pick already (unprotected). That means we can't get their 2020, 2021 or 2022 first round picks. We already have their 2019 second round pick from a prior deal. So that pretty much narrows it down, doesn't it? Lol. Obviously, the only pick that could possibly be in play would be the Heat's 2019 first rounder. So the debate must be over how much protection. If we're stuck with Waiters as the price for getting J. Richardson, then the pick better be completely unprotected. And even that's not much of a concession because with Butler the Heat are likely to make the playoffs in the East unless Butler misses even more than 23 games.

If we also end up swapping Gorgui for Whiteside, then I'm going to puke. Whiteside, Waiters, J. Richardson and a first round pick in the high teens or low 20s for Butler and Gorgui would be a bad deal, something Thibodeau repeatedly said they wouldn't do. But the problem is that Thibodeau wouldn't know it's a bad deal. He's a bad PBO.

Apparently, Portland has made cj untouchable.

So any possible deal with portland is squashed if true.

lipoli390 wrote:

60WinTim wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:Word is that Dion Waiters is being held out of the media day stuff in Miami

And then there is this: take it with a grain of salt because it comes from the internet...

@zacnba
Replying to @EthanJSkolnick
My cousin who's an nba agent who doesn't even like the heat told me that Miami will trade Dion and Jrich and they are now trying to figure out a pick to give to Minnesota trade will come soon

12:16 PM - 24 Sep 2018

Not sure what there is to figure out about a pick to give us. They've traded their 2021 pick already (unprotected). That means we can't get their 2020, 2021 or 2022 first round picks. We already have their 2019 second round pick from a prior deal. So that pretty much narrows it down, doesn't it? Lol. Obviously, the only pick that could possibly be in play would be the Heat's 2019 first rounder. So the debate must be over how much protection. If we're stuck with Waiters as the price for getting J. Richardson, then the pick better be completely unprotected. And even that's not much of a concession because with Butler the Heat are likely to make the playoffs in the East unless Butler misses even more than 23 games.

If we also end up swapping Gorgui for Whiteside, then I'm going to puke. Whiteside, Waiters, J. Richardson and a first round pick in the high teens or low 20s for Butler and Gorgui would be a bad deal, something Thibodeau repeatedly said they wouldn't do. But the problem is that Thibodeau wouldn't know it's a bad deal. He's a bad PBO.

I'm pretty skeptical that Thibs and Layden would be willing to take back Waiters (who is injured) money in this deal based on how they have tended to try and avoid long term salary which would be why they would be including Dieng. There seemed to be a number of different ideas of this trade thrown around today and Winslow was one of the guys that were held out or...happened to arrive late or whatever. Lol You point out well the draft picks for Miami...that's certainly going to hurt them in making a deal. Other teams have more options and we have seen Thibs will actually pick a player...ok he probably won't be here but it shows he would value that in a deal. Butler does seem like a Pat Riley type and Wade is there. How much can you get out of Riley to make this happen or get him to offer up something that looks pretty good to raise another team's offer?

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

60WinTim wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:Word is that Dion Waiters is being held out of the media day stuff in Miami

And then there is this: take it with a grain of salt because it comes from the internet...

@zacnba
Replying to @EthanJSkolnick
My cousin who's an nba agent who doesn't even like the heat told me that Miami will trade Dion and Jrich and they are now trying to figure out a pick to give to Minnesota trade will come soon

12:16 PM - 24 Sep 2018

Not sure what there is to figure out about a pick to give us. They've traded their 2021 pick already (unprotected). That means we can't get their 2020, 2021 or 2022 first round picks. We already have their 2019 second round pick from a prior deal. So that pretty much narrows it down, doesn't it? Lol. Obviously, the only pick that could possibly be in play would be the Heat's 2019 first rounder. So the debate must be over how much protection. If we're stuck with Waiters as the price for getting J. Richardson, then the pick better be completely unprotected. And even that's not much of a concession because with Butler the Heat are likely to make the playoffs in the East unless Butler misses even more than 23 games.

If we also end up swapping Gorgui for Whiteside, then I'm going to puke. Whiteside, Waiters, J. Richardson and a first round pick in the high teens or low 20s for Butler and Gorgui would be a bad deal, something Thibodeau repeatedly said they wouldn't do. But the problem is that Thibodeau wouldn't know it's a bad deal. He's a bad PBO.

I'm pretty skeptical that Thibs and Layden would be willing to take back Waiters (who is injured) money in this deal based on how they have tended to try and avoid long term salary which would be why they would be including Dieng. There seemed to be a number of different ideas of this trade thrown around today and Winslow was one of the guys that were held out or...happened to arrive late or whatever. Lol You point out well the draft picks for Miami...that's certainly going to hurt them in making a deal. Other teams have more options and we have seen Thibs will actually pick a player...ok he probably won't be here but it shows he would value that in a deal. Butler does seem like a Pat Riley type and Wade is there. How much can you get out of Riley to make this happen or get him to offer up something that looks pretty good to raise another team's offer?

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

60WinTim wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:Word is that Dion Waiters is being held out of the media day stuff in Miami

And then there is this: take it with a grain of salt because it comes from the internet...

@zacnba
Replying to @EthanJSkolnick
My cousin who's an nba agent who doesn't even like the heat told me that Miami will trade Dion and Jrich and they are now trying to figure out a pick to give to Minnesota trade will come soon

12:16 PM - 24 Sep 2018

Not sure what there is to figure out about a pick to give us. They've traded their 2021 pick already (unprotected). That means we can't get their 2020, 2021 or 2022 first round picks. We already have their 2019 second round pick from a prior deal. So that pretty much narrows it down, doesn't it? Lol. Obviously, the only pick that could possibly be in play would be the Heat's 2019 first rounder. So the debate must be over how much protection. If we're stuck with Waiters as the price for getting J. Richardson, then the pick better be completely unprotected. And even that's not much of a concession because with Butler the Heat are likely to make the playoffs in the East unless Butler misses even more than 23 games.

If we also end up swapping Gorgui for Whiteside, then I'm going to puke. Whiteside, Waiters, J. Richardson and a first round pick in the high teens or low 20s for Butler and Gorgui would be a bad deal, something Thibodeau repeatedly said they wouldn't do. But the problem is that Thibodeau wouldn't know it's a bad deal. He's a bad PBO.

I'm pretty skeptical that Thibs and Layden would be willing to take back Waiters (who is injured) money in this deal based on how they have tended to try and avoid long term salary which would be why they would be including Dieng. There seemed to be a number of different ideas of this trade thrown around today and Winslow was one of the guys that were held out or...happened to arrive late or whatever. Lol You point out well the draft picks for Miami...that's certainly going to hurt them in making a deal. Other teams have more options and we have seen Thibs will actually pick a player...ok he probably won't be here but it shows he would value that in a deal. Butler does seem like a Pat Riley type and Wade is there. How much can you get out of Riley to make this happen or get him to offer up something that looks pretty good to raise another team's offer?

I think we can get a lot out of Pat for Butler as I think Riley is the most highly motivated to get Butler. The stars seem to be aligning for a deal with Miami. Riley wants to be relevant and Miami doesn't have the draft picks or young talent to make that happen. Butler's buddy, Dwayne Wade, is entering the final season of his career. But I'm just not thrilled with what Miami has to offer. I'm hoping Riley helps drive up what we can get from other teams -- teams that have more attractive options. If we do a deal with Miami it had better include both J. Richardson and Adebayo. Those two and Miami's 2019 pick (top 12 protected) would be the minimal return I'd insist on. But of course it depends on what we can realistically get from other teams.

I think Thibodeau will end up doing a deal with Miami. It will be the simplest and most straight forward option for Thibodeau so it will fit Thibodeau's thought process. Neither Thibodeau nor Layden has a shred of salesmanship in their DNA, so they'll be inclined towards Miami where Riley is already sold on Butler.

But I'm still hoping for either Porter or Beal and a lottery-protected pick from the Wizards as my top choice. Otherwise, I'd want Covington and at least a couple draft picks from the Sixers, including Miami's unprotected 2021 pick, which should be a really nice one unless Miami pulls off a major FA coup in the next couple years. I'd see the other pick from the Sixers as the Kings or Bulls 2019 second rounder.

While I think Miami is the easiest deal given how highly motivated Riley is, the Sixers deal is a better realistic alternative if Thibodeau and Layden have the good sense to see the opportunity and the patience to see it through.

According to a report, the Pistons are interested in Jimmy Butler, but they don't expect to get him because of the "cost" and "mixed signals they're getting from Minnesota." That report about mixed signals from the Wolves lines up with Jon K's question to Thibs/Layden today about teams that have told Jon they're not getting good communication with the Wolves front office. Layden effectively confirmed that might be the case, brushing it off as resulting from those teams not having assets the Wolves would want. This sounds like classic Thibodeau linear, simplistic thinking. The lines of communication should be wide open with every single organization. Even if a team doesn't have the assets we want, perhaps they can become part of a multi-team deal. At a minimum, getting word out that the Wolves are talking and engaging with a lot of teams can only help to increase Jimmy's value.

Now we have a report from the reliable Woj that Thibodeau today was trying to talk Butler into rejoining the Wolves. The obsessive-compulsive pathologically stubborn Thibodeau just can't let go and move on. That's a troubling mindset to have in your top basketball executive who's ultimately responsible for negotiating a Butler trade. If you can't let go of Butler mentally, can you really be trusted to engage fully, creatively and unreservedly in trying to move him?

lipoli390 wrote:Now we have a report from the reliable Woj that Thibodeau today was trying to talk Butler into rejoining the Wolves. The obsessive-compulsive pathologically stubborn Thibodeau just can't let go and move on. That's a troubling mindset to have in your top basketball executive who's ultimately responsible for negotiating a Butler trade. If you can't let go of Butler mentally, can you really be trusted to engage fully, creatively and unreservedly in trying to move him?

Thibs is doing everything possible to save his own ass. He knows without Butler he isn't a good enough coach to get this team to 40 wins let alone the playoffs. Taylor needs to grow a pair and show him the door. Let Layden organise a Butler trade with Glen's supervision. Let Ryan coach for the season. I know he's young but I think this team will play hard under him.